The Fall Out Continues - thread 6

[TheShadowyFeminist]

New 🧵

@StatisticallyChallenged

I wasn't following it much (I don't drink) but according to BBC the ECJ ruled in 2015 that it might breach if other options exist like taxation, but that it was ultimately for national court to decide.

Supreme court then said in 2017 that they could do it.

Whether it would have been open to more challenges without brexit, not sure

What happens then (where the advocate general advocates taxation rather than more restrictive measures) is that there is an individual complaint to the EU who then investigate via the Commission and fine the member state.

National courts hardly ever fail to follow the advocate general's findings because of this. But as we know, the much vaunted EU law experts of the Snp have invented an entirely new doctrine, untested elsewhere, that "special and unique circumstances" apply in Scotland.

Obviously this is utter drivel, but the Snp party faithful really do believe that the rest of Europe considers Scotland so special that laws that apply elsewhere shouldn't apply here.

Scotland is getting a bit of a reputation amongst academics as a rather "interesting" case study. Of what can go wrong in Constitutional terms.

Its so disturbing the amount of shoulder shrugging and so whattery of many SNP voters, add "but Boris..." to that as well

@forfucksakenett

Minimum pricing was introduced in 2018.

Were there any cases brought against it prior to us leaving Europe? I can't see anything but I'm not great at googling.

I believe that only the svotchbwhisky association had the deep pockets required.

If you've got a spare million then by all means use your democratic tights to challenge the Scottish government in court.

Not for Scots a clear constitution with a free right of challenge over Constitutional breaches as in Holland or Germany obviously. So accessible, fair and transparent.

It's like a perfect storm of all the bad things you could imagine in a constitution and system of government coming together in one little country.

Scotland is getting a bit of a reputation amongst academics as a rather "interesting" case study. Of what can go wrong in Constitutional terms.

Which is a massive red flag for any party with ambition for independence. It's probably the main reason I'm more sceptical about Indy than I was when Brexit was hurtling towards its conclusion. At any point since the brexit vote, the SNP could easily have mounted a strong case for independence, given the implications of brexit for a Scotland that voted to remain in the EU. I was certainly horrified by what Brexit was shaping up to be, and the pro/con balance of brexit chaos vs Scottish Indy chaos was easier to tip over towards Scottish independence. But the more bad policy & legislation they're pushing, with an penchant for authoritarian tendencies, the more concern I have for what could happen if independence wins out.

@TheShadowyFeminist I understand that. She told the Daily Express that she was triggered by the experience of the women in the AS case. Fair enough.

What the conversations surrounding this seem to be forgetting though is that she was cleared by the regulatory body.

The resurgence of this story doesn't change that.

Woman is annoyed and feels let down by her lawyer. Makes a complaint. Complaint not upheld. Life goes on. Woman sees parallels in her case and current enquiry. Goes to papers for a moan.

It does t change the outcome.

The only reason I mentioned the blog is that it has the most detail, and some posters are relating the information o there as if it's fact, but I'm unsure how reliable a source it is. I think if the Daily Express didn't use the information in it then it's probably not very accurate given that the DE love a bit of drama and are fast turning into the National Enquirer.

@ScotlandUnited

Its so disturbing the amount of shoulder shrugging and so whattery of many SNP voters, add "but Boris..." to that as well

Is it though?

We are making a choice here. Inevitably for many that's going to come down to picking the best of the bunch. This will lead to comparisons. Unless there is a perfect political party of which I am unaware?

@GreenlandTheMovie what has gone wrong in constitutional terms?

Where can I read about this?

Oh well @GreenlandTheMovie, the Irish Government must be clueless about EU Law and think they're something special too. They're hoping to copy Scotland's success ( a 20 per cent reduction in deaths directly from alcohol) and exoect to have minimum pricing in place by Christmas.

You really think thats the way the EU works? Is this a commonly held belief amongst SNP supporters? It might be worthwhile actually sending some of them to work in the EU...

You never know, GreenlandTheMovie there might even be many people on this thread whose job you could go and have a stint at and learn something.

No member state can put forward "discussion" or "special circumstances"

then not sure what you were quoting from here:
Scottish Government's response as saying:
'We believe Scottish legislation is more appropriate as Scotland already has very robust freedom of information legislation under FOISA which covers all information, including environmental information'.
they just randomly wrote up a paper off the top of their head and posted it off I suppose

Bit confused why we're bothering to re litigate Brexit?

I think it started as an attempt to prove that Scotland is basically an intelligence free shit hole with the capability of a sack of spuds.

But I'm paraphrasing.

@TheShadowyFeminist

Scotland is getting a bit of a reputation amongst academics as a rather "interesting" case study. Of what can go wrong in Constitutional terms.

Which is a massive red flag for any party with ambition for independence. It's probably the main reason I'm more sceptical about Indy than I was when Brexit was hurtling towards its conclusion. At any point since the brexit vote, the SNP could easily have mounted a strong case for independence, given the implications of brexit for a Scotland that voted to remain in the EU. I was certainly horrified by what Brexit was shaping up to be, and the pro/con balance of brexit chaos vs Scottish Indy chaos was easier to tip over towards Scottish independence. But the more bad policy & legislation they're pushing, with an penchant for authoritarian tendencies, the more concern I have for what could happen if independence wins out.

I think there was a sweet spot between the Brexit vote and us actually exiting where I'm pretty sure a referendum would have resulted in a yes vote. People were pissed off and even some No voters were more concerned about being pulled out of the EU and were desperate to maintain that. But the longer we are out of the EU then the less significant that will become IMO

I agree. You couldn’t ask for a clearer example of Scotland and England being different - Scotland voted to Remain yet has to go because Westminster says so. I think Sturgeon bottled it.

@SempreSuiGeneris

Bit confused why we're bothering to re litigate Brexit?

Do you think Brexit has no bearing in this election?

My goodness. Its a good job I don't go all drama queen and complain about being attacked and bullied, isn't it?

Lets shoot the messenger.

What lovely people.

@GreenlandTheMovie

My goodness. Its a good job I don't go all drama queen and complain about being attacked and bullied, isn't it?

Lets shoot the messenger.

What lovely people.

If I could just refer you to your posts last night... 🙄

@happygolurkey

You really think thats the way the EU works? Is this a commonly held belief amongst SNP supporters? It might be worthwhile actually sending some of them to work in the EU...

You never know, GreenlandTheMovie there might even be many people on this thread whose job you could go and have a stint at and learn something.

No member state can put forward "discussion" or "special circumstances"

then not sure what you were quoting from here:
Scottish Government's response as saying:
'We believe Scottish legislation is more appropriate as Scotland already has very robust freedom of information legislation under FOISA which covers all information, including environmental information'.
they just randomly wrote up a paper off the top of their head and posted it off I suppose

You forgot the classic part about how no-one outside Scotland was ever going to submit an FOI or EIR.

Thats just brilliant. Its even better than the staff are too busy and might get confused angle.

Just so much material. I find these threads interesting for gauging the tactics used by SNP supporters.

forfucksakenett If I could just refer you to your posts last night...

Oh go on then. A little threat of more bullying never did anyone any harm. Threats and insinuations are like water off a duck's back to me - heard them all before from the SNP, its just another stuck record.

It was so blissfully peaceful while you were all busy panicing about Sturgeon being under threat of forced resignation for misleading parliament. And she was found by Parliament to have misled Parliament, but they get away with all sorts here in government, don't they?

Lets just ignore the blatantly racist remark about Adam Tomkins (soon presumably to be reportable to the police under the new Hate Crime legislation too).

greenland I suspect its the same poster who always behaves like this, just under a different username again. Try not to engage.

@ScotlandUnited

greenland I suspect its the same poster who always behaves like this, just under a different username again. Try not to engage.

True. Though they do have a certain sense of persistent dogma in common, its often difficult to discern any individuality.

@GreenlandTheMovie

I did not bully you. I pointed out when you were being quite rude. Which was often to be fair.

@SempreSuiGeneris did not make a racist remark about AT in any way shape or form she just corrected an inaccuracy.

You forgot the classic part about how no-one outside Scotland was ever going to submit an FOI or EIR.

From the quote you gave yourself earlier, that's not what they said, though is it

yes it is very blissful when nobody challenges you isn't it? Glad you've got us back to the topic of why this thread was started though. I think it was 'do you care if Sturgeon is guilty?' the original post asked. She was found not guilty of breaking the ministerial code of course wasn't she? Yet, these threads had her hung drawn and quartered over not just one but several breaches. It all went very quiet about that following the inquiry reports. Anyone would think people here would rather talk about anything but.

So funny that unionists feel this is 'their' space and anyone pro-independence is 'taking over' by trying to contribute. Says it all

Just so much material. I find these threads interesting for gauging the tactics used by SNP supporters.

Though they do have a certain sense of persistent dogma in common, its often difficult to discern any individuality.

Sums things up well I think.

I'm not sure why some people take personal offence when a public figure like Sturgeon, who is putting herself up for judgement as she's seeking re-election, is discussed regarding her own words/actions/choices & the policies she's brought in or intends to push if re-elected. Her own actions & those of her government were brought into sharp focus because of the staggering level of incompetence that she claimed to know so little about but which she backed fully & defended. Personally I am interested in having those discussions with people of any political leaning, who can keep it civil. Hyperbole & exaggerated faux offence, not so much.

The effort taken to turn any discussion of SNP/Sturgeon that isn't a glowing endorsement into a bun fight is amusing though. Because it's as convincing as Sturgeon is when she says she 'cannot recall' something like the detail of meetings she doesn't record & which later come to light.

Oops, she did it again

I've no doubt I'll now get the same repeated accusations I've had across a number of threads for making this point (again). The 🪨 seems to be a bit of a trigger for that with some. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I am surprised that Brexit is so prominent in people's thinking tbh. Even the SNP seem to be saying that full Independence from UK could take the best part of a decade. Given how long Brexit took to sort out that looks like a fair assessment.

Full Independence is, I think (?), the first hurdle to overcome before contemplating Scotland rejoining the EU. Surely a debate for 2031 rather than now?