The Fall Out Continues - thread 6

[TheShadowyFeminist]

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I first heard of the soil problem back in January. Tractors had to have their wheels washed leaving dirty Scotland to arrive in NI.

The TRUTH is that without the subsidy from WM Scotland is in effect bankrupt.
The outgoings are more than the incomings. it doesn't take a financial genius to work that out.
So who would underwrite that difference? The BoE wouldn't. The ECB wouldn't. The IMF?
Or is the SG going to use a credit card?
How would you balance the books.
Higher taxes and cuts to services. They would have to be extreme to make up the shortfall.
Criticising Bojo, WM and the cretins down there doesn't make one iota of difference.
It is basic math!!

So we're not allowed to criticise the quality of our politicians without being, what, anti-Scottish? Unpatriotic?

Of course we are however whether that is persuasive to those who prefer Scottish based politicians and Govt to London based is a different matter.

This is AF Neil on top interrogation form on all these issues analysing the latest SNP proposals for economic independence and the path to rejoining the EU. Haven't bothered to google the underlying report cos Neil the demolition job is pretty comprehensive.

I disagree with Neil's central premise that the EU would never bend the rules even if I highly doubt they would for Scotland. I also disagree with both of them on MMT because to me QE amounts to the same thing. Even people as mainstream as Mervyn King believe financial recapitalisation Worldwide is inevitable in the not too distant future. That said Scotland would be far better off as part of the UK in any readjustment of this nature rather than waiting for others to dictate our fate. Few seem to remember it was Gordon Brown who negotiated the G20 response to the 2008 banking crisis not just for the UK but as Leader of the WW Group.

I could take issue with lots of the rest from both sides however,
bored and switched off even me with this level of esoteric analysis which illustrates why this avenue rarely wins an argument about the desire for self-government.

Thanks @SempreSuiGeneris, one to watch in the morning (got a poorly tot beside me who I doubt would appreciate Neil!)

I'd like them to prove that they can run the country properly rather than constantly just laying blame elsewhere and ignoring the issues they have control of.

I think the irony here is that, to an extent, the SNP did demonstrate that when they were a minority administration but still had a strong opposition. I might be viewing this through a rose-tinted lenses in hindsight but they gained support from at least appearing to be competent at running the country. But, as recent events have highlighted, either that was all obfuscation & smoke & mirrors the whole time or their increased power/dominance planted the seed of complacency & arrogance while thinking anything they did was 'competent' & justified. The rot was either always there but well hidden, or it set in when they found themselves in a position to do whatever they wanted.

The delay in setting up the social security system to be run by scotgov seems to be more about maintaining that crutch of complaining about a system run by UKGov while being 'unable' to tackle the complaints about that system. An SNP that grabbed the opportunity to control as much of the levers of power as possible would be one that looked like they were serious about wanting to be in charge of the decisions for Scotland they say they want.

@WouldBeGood

Other than “getting away from Tory/Westminster rule.

Actual tangible benefits

But that’s the argument in its entirety, more or less, I think?

People want independence for similar reasons as they wanted Brexit - not to be governed by a body that is perceived to be remote and out of touch.

The one example I’ve seen of where Scotland could benefit from independence is immigration - as a country Scotland could use more people and especially young people and families. Its needs are not the same as England’s, which broadly doesn’t, but it’s a “one-size-fits-all” policy.

@StatisticallyChallenged hope your wee one feels better soon and you both get some sleep

Thanks @WouldBeGood. She's just full of cold but at that age they don't understand why they feel pants!

@Happinessisawarmcervix yes, it is like Brexit.

Puffing about evil overlords whilst no actual benefits are outlined.

I’m open to hearing actual facts, figures, and benefits but can’t get anyone to tell me what they are.

@StatisticallyChallenged I used to hate it when mine were poorly, such a shame even if it’s just a cold.

The one example I’ve seen of where Scotland could benefit from independence is immigration - as a country Scotland could use more people and especially young people and families. Its needs are not the same as England’s, which broadly doesn’t, but it’s a “one-size-fits-all” policy

The unemployment rate is running at 4.5% at the moment. You need jobs first!!

@noego

The one example I’ve seen of where Scotland could benefit from independence is immigration - as a country Scotland could use more people and especially young people and families. Its needs are not the same as England’s, which broadly doesn’t, but it’s a “one-size-fits-all” policy

The unemployment rate is running at 4.5% at the moment. You need jobs first!!

I think the suggestion was for a sort of entrepreneur visa whereby if you wanted to set up a business, especially in the Highlands, you would be welcome.

Sorry I’m so vague on the detail, it was a while ago I read about it.

But that’s the argument in its entirety, more or less, I think?

People want independence for similar reasons as they wanted Brexit - not to be governed by a body that is perceived to be remote and out of touch.

Tbh I don't think Scotgov is actually any more "in touch" - they seem to spend a lot of time on unpopular drivel and not enough on the key issues. Is part of that stagnation ? Are administrations a bit like fish and house guests that go off after a while? I think it's an issue.

But I do understand the desire for government that feels closer, more representative, more relevant. But I'm very pragmatic and to me the gain from feeling the govt is more representative isn't worth the hardship that it will cause.

[quote WouldBeGood]@Happinessisawarmcervix yes, it is like Brexit.

Puffing about evil overlords whilst no actual benefits are outlined.

I’m open to hearing actual facts, figures, and benefits but can’t get anyone to tell me what they are.[/quote]
You’d think the SNP would have that sort of information all lined up and ready!

Interested now in this transition period AW was talking about. I'm guessing that if indy referendum result was to leave that WM would have the brexit deal on the table within a week by just renaming the participants. I.e. Just change the names from EU to Scotland. Scotland wouldn't be in position to negotiate because WM would simply say it was good enough for the EU so it should be good enough for you bearing in mind you ambitions to join the EU and secondly the EU wouldn't take very kindly to Scotland having a more favourable deal than it has and thirdly the Eu would want to have a major say in the hard border between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

In addition when does the WM funding cease? When do Scottish and UK people have to apply for residency in the relevant country?
I suppose it will take time to set up a Scottish passport office and then process all the applications from around the world. Of course Scottish people living in the UK would be given priority one assumes.

Every time I look at this i just keep getting more questions and unfortunately I cannot find the answers anywhere.

stats hope you and the wee one had a decent night's sleep. AF Neil sounds, thinks and even looks very similar to my DF who has been dead almost 20 years. When I watched him in his old Thursday night slot my brain invariably snuggled down and went into bedtime story mode and I fell asleep and missed most of it.

“thirdly the Eu would want to have a major say in the hard border between Scotland and the rest of the UK.”

Sturgeon really and totally missed the boat on this. As I see it the only practical independence was with rUK and Scotland both in the EU, so that families would still be able to see each other, and people could live in one country and work in the other. As a next best, England with a very soft Brexit might have worked. But with this hardest of Brexits, independence really is sunk unless Scotland wants to emulate Cuba.

The time to hold the IndyRef would have been before we left but all of Blackford’s posturing about “Scotland not being dragged out against its will” turned out to be bollocks.

It's England emulating Cuba. Put responsibility where it belongs. It's England who voted repeatedly for a hard border, not to be in the EU and not to be in Schengen. It's England's border that they wanted.

Scotland voting for a hard border with England takes us further down the rabbit hole though.

It's England's border now but if we vote for independence knowing that England is out of the EU then the new border, between Scotland and England, is on us.

Just too many unknowns.

AS did a dreadful day interview on R4 this morning. His refusal to put up his hands and admit to being flawed but to learning from his mistakes and attacking the questioner for the question gives a very poor impression.

Next level misappropriation of Covid support funding by the SNP in Angus.

Two SNP branches each got £10k in Covid business grants from their council - despite not being a business

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/angus-mearns/2090614/angus-snp-branches-made-to-hand-back-20k-covid-business-support-handout-in-payout-blunder/

Blunder

Oh @SempreSuiGeneris that’s appalling

Happinessisawarmcervix People want independence for similar reasons as they wanted Brexit - not to be governed by a body that is perceived to be remote and out of touch.

Unfortunately, the Scottish Government is really out of touch. I can't describe how difficult it has been in my sport for the governing body to communicate with the Scottish Government re sports resumption early in the pandemic (and now). Days and money were spent preparing risk assessments, covid plans, etc all to no response from the appropriate sections of the Scottish Government. So we had the farcical situation of the sport having resumed in England 8 weeks earlier than in Scotland and Scottish people travelling to England to compete in a socially distanced sport, even though Scots could go to pubs and drink with strangers at the same time! Needless to say, the same sport has now resumed in England again; still banned in Scotland.

The centralisation of the police force is another. And things like the Edinburgh statutory notices scandal/fraud - not a bleep from the Scottish Parliament about debating it or anything.

The one example I’ve seen of where Scotland could benefit from independence is immigration - as a country Scotland could use more people and especially young people and families. Its needs are not the same as England’s, which broadly doesn’t, but it’s a “one-size-fits-all” policy.

This seems to be a standard line that independence supporters trot out - they like to be seen as supporting diversity and inward immigration.

What Scotland really needs to be doing is to stop bleeding talented workers to England. I've lost count of the numbers of friends who have moved south for work, all in skilled jobs/professions. All of this left wing rhetoric coming out of the Scottish Government and difficult, expensive and unhelpful local authorities is driving people away.

Can you imagine how it must feel if you had to leave Aberdeen because you lost your job (as many did) and if you wanted to keep working in your field, you had to relocate, and then someone like you comes along and announces that Scotland needs more people through immigration? I don't think I've ever heard anything more remote! Its a complete kick in the teeth to hard working Scottish people!

Its also becoming really hard and more expensive to rent property in Scotland, which affects incoming workers. All of the licensing, regulation and taxation is driving rental prices up. Its the most heavily regulated rental property sector in Europe now.