Salmond v Sturgeon round 4. What next?

[Cismyfatarse]

New thread.

@GirlLovesWorld

Haha!

Oh wait - there's an election thread??

What have I been missing?!

It's headed 'election thread' but a longer title, in scotsnet. Waxed kindly started it - early days but worth a place mark.

Waxon- sorry, typos.

Another option for a 2nd Chamber would be to split the current Holyrood system such that Constituency vote gives the First Chamber and Regional List Allocation gives the Revising Chamber.

Wax lead balloon springs to mind.

Just a counterpoint on citizens assemblies. Maybe they can work - but the fact is that to scrutinise and hold to account effectively, generate amendments, you need either the expertise itself in legislation or the support to do that.

I agree it’s very important to have quality legal experts drafting legislation.

As well as a revising chamber.

I’m no fan of the peerage system but have been grateful to the Lords often over the past few years, most recently in relation to the GC debate.

Or maybe holyrood just has to be split so there is always a 3 way split and that all policy has to go thorough an official process to be developed after approved in principle by at least 2 parts of the 3?

I dunno, I'm far from an expert but there has to be a better way where one party doesn't get to dominate based on the voting of a quarter of the electorate.

I suppose the great unsayable about Union politics is that despite the barracking you see in the Commons, there is rarely any real antagonism behind it. In practice, there is a lot of collaboration that you don’t see between the parties. They have to have reasonable relationships.

So it’s not Tory v Labour or variations thereof.

I know the SNP no longer work like this at all (they did when Salmond was in charge to advance devo powers).

Strategically this why the SNP are just nowhere in the Commons and it is probably why they have got themselves into a mindset that they must control matters in the Scottish Government.

It’s not actually how politics has generally operated in across the U.K., but the different approach now taken by Sturgeon has led to an effective “gun to the head” situation where independence is said to be with them only. It is not a sophisticated approach at all

the ability to appoint Lords based on merit has revivified the second chamber in Westminster. Hmmm perhaps vivifying is overstating it :)

Also 'merit' might be overstating it too in some cases.

but is the point of a second chamber to give even more voice to the little people? If the point is to produce better policy and scrutiny of legislation you need people with expertise to do that.

Westminster has committees that are supposed to gather expertise to scrutinise, but if your elected representatives in general lack expertise other than political, and increasingly so, you can see why scrutiny within the first chamber is failing to work.

I'll go against the elected principle for a second chamber for this reason and say that you don't get the best scrutiny from another house that is reflecting the general political consensus of the first chamber - that's how you get rubber stamping of bad reforms.

I'm not sure that's entirely fair these days, it's been what, 20 years since the Lords has had appointed members?

Merit isn’t necessarily what might be thought of instinctively, there are political appointees, experts in the field, former judges, scientists, trade unionists etc.

They have achieved something in public life, and that’s the effective criteria

@WaxOnFeckOff

Or maybe holyrood just has to be split so there is always a 3 way split and that all policy has to go thorough an official process to be developed after approved in principle by at least 2 parts of the 3?

I dunno, I'm far from an expert but there has to be a better way where one party doesn't get to dominate based on the voting of a quarter of the electorate.

I agree some sort of elected second chamber might be a good idea.

I'm also inclined to think though, when hearing the 25% of the electorate stuff, that maybe the other 75% should get of their arse and vote. Clearly other parties aren't doing enough to engage their voters but the SNP are.

Patrick Harvie has backed out of supporting the VONC in Swinney 🙄.

Claims it’s a “naked attempt to undermine our democratic institutions”

Which makes no sense as it’s part of the democratic process

@GirlLovesWorld

Also 'merit' might be overstating it too in some cases.

Definitely!

@WouldBeGood

Patrick Harvie has backed out of supporting the VONC in Swinney 🙄.

Claims it’s a “naked attempt to undermine our democratic institutions”

Which makes no sense as it’s part of the democratic process

No, refusing to obey two parliamentary votes is a naked attempt though!

@WouldBeGood

Patrick Harvie has backed out of supporting the VONC in Swinney 🙄.

Claims it’s a “naked attempt to undermine our democratic institutions”

Which makes no sense as it’s part of the democratic process

What a wimp. It's exactly part of the democratic process. Given that the other part was that they voted on numerous occasions for information to be given and it wasn't - that wasn't very democratic was it? They voted for something to happen and were ignored?

Scotsman reporting that records of meetings between Sturgeon, Evans and the legal counsel about the Salmond investigation cannot be found ... confirmed by John Swinney. These were the meetings of Nov 2 and Nov 13 2018.

@Ianrankinfan

Scotsman reporting that records of meetings between Sturgeon, Evans and the legal counsel about the Salmond investigation cannot be found ... confirmed by John Swinney. These were the meetings of Nov 2 and Nov 13 2018.

Ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous.

Sturgeon & Evans I get they don't want any notes being recorded (even if I think it's shady practice) but legal counsel? Really?

🤨

Legal counsel can hardly contradict them...

How very convenient. 😏

something rotten in the state of Denmark there - civil servants having a small bonfire again?

@WouldBeGood

Patrick Harvie has backed out of supporting the VONC in Swinney 🙄.

Claims it’s a “naked attempt to undermine our democratic institutions”

Which makes no sense as it’s part of the democratic process

whats he been promised by NS or JS come the May election??

honestly the whole govt is corrupt .. I think we need a serious change