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Salmond v Sturgeon round 4. What next?

968 replies

Cismyfatarse · 05/03/2021 18:09

New thread.

OP posts:
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OldRailer · 05/03/2021 19:20

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TheShadowyFeminist · 05/03/2021 19:21

in what ways are the candidates worrying?

I've clocked at least 3 who have benefitted from the unlawful 'diversity' initiative who are part of the 'progressive pro GRA/HCB' faction.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 05/03/2021 19:24

Well considering the SNP only has 4 list MSP's thanks to their overwhelming constituency vote, and there's no sign of much changing this time around, I don't think there's much to be 'worried' about really.

StatisticallyChallenged · 05/03/2021 19:26

@TheShadowyFeminist

in what ways are the candidates worrying?

I've clocked at least 3 who have benefitted from the unlawful 'diversity' initiative who are part of the 'progressive pro GRA/HCB' faction.

Yes there are a few of them - I wonder if this will be tested in court?
jabbathebutt · 05/03/2021 19:29

ah that's what I thought it was about

Dinnafashyersel · 05/03/2021 19:32

Thanks for the List Shadowy. A lot of new names.

Looks like bias was the least damaging flaw in the process. Makes you wonder about the rest.

TheShadowyFeminist · 05/03/2021 19:38

I wonder if this will be tested in court?

It'll be interesting if something comes out of this that means there's a strong case worth pursuing. I think those supporting it are of the view it'll only be a racist/bigot/discriminatory person who would even attempt to challenge so they'll be very willing to offer up the mob justice pile on to put someone off doing this. So overall it's probably not something anyone would relish doing, even if they had a strong case.

LexMitior · 05/03/2021 19:40

[quote Scottishskifun]@LexMitior of course not but the civil service or Scottish civil service covers a wide range of jobs. Very few are based directly with private offices.[/quote]
I agree. The old rule that a private office is just as dysfunctional as it’s Minister is might apply!

Dinnafashyersel · 05/03/2021 19:44

XDown depends how the List candidates are allocated against constituencies (the List ranks them all eg Nicola Sturgeon is on the Glasgow List but is a sitting constituency MSP). There are a lot of sitting MSPs standing down.

Could be all sorts of odd outcomes because as you point out SNP have hardly any List seats and were over represented by vote share in most areas by virtue of constituency seats last time. So a high ranking MSP such as Angus Robertson could lose the constituency vote but not get a List seat if those further down his Regional List successfully defend their constituency - actually fairly plausible hence why I was surprised at decision to stand him there.

LexMitior · 05/03/2021 19:46

@StatisticallyChallenged

An extract from what Wings describes as the "kidney stone", 17th December

Bolding is mine.

"It has become increasingly clear that the approach of the petitioner in this matter is one which may appropriately be described as a “scorched earth” one. It is clear that there is no concern on his part
as to who might be criticised, or harmed, as a result of these proceedings. We understand that this is well understood by those “in the crosshairs” – most obviously the Permanent Secretary and the
First Minister. If instructions are to proceed notwithstanding then so be it – we are not in a position where we are professionally unable to mount a defence (because, for example, there is no statable defence). We are, however, perilously close to such a situation.

We are firmly of the view that at least one of the challenges mounted by the petitioner will be successful. We are told that there other aspects to the case which justify the running of the defence and that, accordingly, there is no prospect of the petition being conceded. That decision is not for us to take and as long as informed consent is given the decision to proceed is one which we must obey.

We are, however, entirely unconvinced as to what benefit that might arise from the hearing in January that might outweigh the potentially disastrous repercussions thereof. Leaving aside the large expenses bill that would inevitably arise, the personal and political fallout of an adverse decision – especially if, as may be the case, it is attended by judicial criticism – seems to us to be something which eclipses by some way the possibility of helpful judicial comments. That being so, and recognising as we do that the wider political picture is something that others are far better than are we to comment upon, we cannot let pass uncritically the suggestion that the petition cannot be conceded. It would be possible simply to accept (as is our genuine advice as a matter of law) that the appointment of JM as Investigating Officer was, whilst made in bona fide, on reflection indefensible. That would render nugatory all of the other, potentially more harmful, aspects to the challenge. Accepting that a technical error was made could not sensibly be criticised. This would protect those that might otherwise be harmed by the vigorous nature of the challenge that is to be mounted. It would stem the substantial expenses bill that we have no doubt is presently being incurred. Given that we genuinely cannot see the defence prevailing in any event, that seems to us to be the only sensible approach.

We are acutely aware that much of this has already been said, and discounted. The decision to proceed has been taken by very experienced legal and political minds, who are entitled to proceed as they wish. However, we are – independently but also mutually – unable to see that the benefits in proceeding come close to meeting the potential detriments in so doing. Given the potential for harm we simply wish all concerned – and we include the First Minister in this – to be absolutely certain that they wish us to plough on regardless notwithstanding the concerns which we have outlined.

Wow. They tried.

Also, I note a "wheedle" as to "the scorched earth policy" which was a definite appeal to common sense ie stop because you will lose control. When your client is unreasonable, you paint the other party as being so!

And they did lose control, and its incomptent.

sessell · 05/03/2021 19:48

@TheShadowyFeminist

What's really frustrating is that the Tories calls for Sturgeon to resign are being overtaken by the Tories own failings on somewhat similar grounds. Sturgeon absolutely deserves her calls to resign & so do the Tories. Neither should get a 'free pass' on this stuff. Where's Anas Sarwar when we need him? Someone else needs to be calling for Sturgeon to resign off the back of this spectacular car crash. The Tories are f*cling it up cos they're as bad!
Agreed. Not a great message when it's only coming from the Tories. Though their video with all the 'i can't remembers is good value.
Dinnafashyersel · 05/03/2021 19:52

Yep Lex. Highlights a breathtaking degree of arrogance of the part of the SG in relation to its professional Counsel.

StatisticallyChallenged · 05/03/2021 19:53

It is noticeable that they did end up basically doing what that note recommended - conceeding on the basis that JM was not independent.

It does raise the question; which elements did counsel consider as more damaging? They were clearly pretty concerned

Dinnafashyersel · 05/03/2021 19:57

From what I can gather Labour position is to keep their powder dry so they can react to the findings of Hamilton and the Committee. The Tories are making the running to get Swinney to release the papers, albeit kicking and screaming, as they are the official Opposition. However the accusation is that they have gone too soon in calling for NS resignation.

LexMitior · 05/03/2021 19:58

Interestingly NS made reference to a "scorched earth policy" in the Scottish Parliament in relation to AS. The language was very odd if you read it, but presumably this opinion generated the language used then.

“What is not legitimate is to pursue a conspiracy theory, a scorched earth policy that threatens the reputation and the integrity of Scotland’s independent justice institution just because you happen to dislike the Government and to sacrifice all of that, if I may say so Presiding Officer, on the altar of the ego of one man"

Speaking direct, eh!

Ianrankinfan · 05/03/2021 20:01

Shadowy. Herald has changed its tune ... now saying “ the Scottish Government discounted advice to concede its legal fight with Alex Salmond . “. You got to the bottom of all this first ... these newspapers just write anything .

dementedma · 05/03/2021 20:02

Is Keith Brown still deputy FM? He is being very very quiet at the moment. Having had the misfortune to meet him several times through work, its not like him. Waiting to see which way to jump?

WaxOnFeckOff · 05/03/2021 20:11

twitter.com/i/status/1367542180307435525

Fabulous.

TheShadowyFeminist · 05/03/2021 20:12

Good pick up Lex

I think it's somewhat arrogant and naive for Scotgov to lecture Salmond on deployment of a 'scorched earth' approach! It's a farcical pot & kettle situation 😁

The went for v high stakes on Salmond, not just the rumour of a smear, but throwing everything (including a rushed & unlawful procedure) at him, probably because they knew he wouldn't go down without a fight. But they badly underestimated how he would react. I think the stalling through the period between March & when he kicked off the JR gave them the impression he was still just about loyal to the SNP/Indy cause that he was reluctance to go for JR to avoid the massive fall out, and gave them a false impression they had the upper hand. There's reference to various arguments being time barred because he should have issued with 3 mths of receiving the letter from Evans in March. I think they thought they had a stronger case because of this.

I think they badly miscalculated the strengths of their own position as well as what they perceived as a weakness in Salmond. And instead of being able to concede at an earlier point to reset & start over, they pigheadedly "ploughed on regardless" in a game of chicken they weren't equipped to win. Due to the spectacular incompetence of almost every stage of the handling.

happygolurkey · 05/03/2021 20:13

Good points made above about the Tories.

Boris Johnson told the House of Commons that all Covid contracts had been published, when they hadn't. The High Court found 100 contracts hadn't been published when he assured MPs. Wonder if there'll be calls for him to resign for misleading parliament?
And last month a judge ruled the health secretary had acted unlawfully by not publishing contracts in the required timeframe.
Then of course there's the inquiry that found Priti Patel had breached the ministerial code but Boris said she could keep her job and just carry on regardless.
I know 'they are worse' isn't an argument. Still concerning though.
Nobody losing their jobs? I wonder how they get away with it with all the 'checks and balances' we keep hearing there are in England

happygolurkey · 05/03/2021 20:14

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56281934

TheShadowyFeminist · 05/03/2021 20:21

Tory Tweet

"I've acted as counsel for the Scottish Government. At consultations, everyone takes notes. It is inconceivable these minutes don't exist."

This is about the minutes/notes from the 'war council' meeting that Sturgeon, Evans & others attended with counsel etc. So even if Evans destroyed her notes, there should be plenty others.

LexMitior · 05/03/2021 20:21

@TheShadowyFeminist

Good pick up Lex

I think it's somewhat arrogant and naive for Scotgov to lecture Salmond on deployment of a 'scorched earth' approach! It's a farcical pot & kettle situation 😁

The went for v high stakes on Salmond, not just the rumour of a smear, but throwing everything (including a rushed & unlawful procedure) at him, probably because they knew he wouldn't go down without a fight. But they badly underestimated how he would react. I think the stalling through the period between March & when he kicked off the JR gave them the impression he was still just about loyal to the SNP/Indy cause that he was reluctance to go for JR to avoid the massive fall out, and gave them a false impression they had the upper hand. There's reference to various arguments being time barred because he should have issued with 3 mths of receiving the letter from Evans in March. I think they thought they had a stronger case because of this.

I think they badly miscalculated the strengths of their own position as well as what they perceived as a weakness in Salmond. And instead of being able to concede at an earlier point to reset & start over, they pigheadedly "ploughed on regardless" in a game of chicken they weren't equipped to win. Due to the spectacular incompetence of almost every stage of the handling.

The thing is that Salmond had presumably concluded that he had a huge amount to lose. And the public law points were in his favour, and principally looked that way from the start, though as less and less helpful evidence came forward then of course the case got less and less favourable to the point where it was untenable to continue.

NS had a reasonable point about JR generally. Governments lose them and that in of itself is not very extraordinary but then they have to change policy to be lawful, just as it should be. However as has been discussed here, then criminal charges in tandem where there is a clear factual nexus between the JR and criminal proceedings is very, very stupid.

I think I still have to go for a) incompetent, not b) mass conspiracy. The SG is like a driver who only looks a foot from a bonnet of the car to drive.

Ianrankinfan · 05/03/2021 20:24

The release of this material after Nicola Sturgeon has given her evidence is truly shocking.

StatisticallyChallenged · 05/03/2021 20:27

emails of 21st/22nd december

Sounds like they've had a request, even at this point, to know "what else can we do to keep this alive". SG not getting the hint!

I'd love to know what the redaction in the very last paragraph is. It kind of reads like there is some sort of past history with her and Salmond which may may her independence even more questionable?

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