Does it matter if Sturgeon is guilty - do you know or care?

[sessell]

Evidence of a conspiracy to frame Alex Salmond has been building. There are compelling reports in the Times, Herald , Sky News and across the internet. But there is less reporting in Scotland and a lot of people seem to not know or care. I'm Scottish but I don't live there. I've been hooked by this as a story of power and corruption. I'm on the fence re independence, just don't know enough so don't have an axe in that debate. I've never been an SNP member. But I do care about justice and that no-one should be above the law, especially politicians when they are seeking to imprison their potential rivals.

After reading this affadavit from Craig Murray which brings it all together and is incendiary I'm pretty convinced there has been a conspiracy and that Sturgeon and her collaborators should face justice. Although the justice department (Crown office) also seem to be mired in this. Here is the affadavit www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2021/01/my-sworn-evidence-on-the-sturgeon-affair/

I've shown this to a few people and have been shocked that a couple have said, yes it stinks but I like Sturgeon. I'd be interested in the views of Scotsnet. How much do you know about this? Do you care? Is it OK for our politicians to imprison their rivals, like Putin and co do, if you like their other objectives. Has Scotland become a corrupt nation? Is that OK?

I want my government and my first minister to be open and transparent in all they do

To care about all of us in the country whether we vote snp or not

Whether we want independence or not

So yes I do care

@titsbumfannythelot

We must mix in similar circles *@Bloodypunkrockers*

Think we must too. Forget about x, focus on independence. Terrifying.

That sort of loyalty, not caring what someone does so long as they're on your side, is what allowed Trump to run amok and end up trying to overthrow a democratic election. Because his supporters didn't care what he did so long as they won.

Yes statistically. All of that

Till it affects them personally

I think the comments on here saying they dont care are shocking. No moral backbone or principles whatsoever.

I'm pro indy and have always liked Nicola. Recent events have been very upsetting. I know SNP members who feel she has betrayed them and women and are now rethinking voting SNP at all in May. They are not ok with her fitting anyone up and these are people dedicated to independence.

Wanting independence isn't blind loyalty to NS or even the SNP, though is it? That's a ridiculous argument. Both are a means to an end. An independent Scotland will be able to vote for the government it wants/needs, and not be out voted by their larger neighbour every time.

I know about it and care very deeply. Dishonesty and corruption for personal gain and power is despicable.

There’s also her appalling treatment of women. So I’m no fan.

@Downton57

Wanting independence isn't blind loyalty to NS or even the SNP, though is it? That's a ridiculous argument. Both are a means to an end. An independent Scotland will be able to vote for the government it wants/needs, and not be out voted by their larger neighbour every time.

The question is what means are acceptable to get your chosen end? Corruption? Abuse of power? Trying to jail rivals? Maybe we'll try and disenfranchise some voters - online voting only perhaps, that should stop some of the older folk voting right and they're mostly unionist.

Where's your line?

Yes where is the line ?

I care! I care a lot! I live in Scotland and I would like independence but that doesn't necessarily make me an ardent SNP follower. However they are the only party who advocate independence so I have to vote for them when it counts. I am mightily pissed off with the whole shenanigans because I am asking myself is there actually anyone left in this country we can trust to lead us with integrity.

There are many things the SNP haven't done well but until Labour realises that a growing number of people in Scotland want away from the even more corrupt shackles of Westminster, and lend their weight to that cause, then people will continue to vote for the SNP.

If Scotland became independent I would be unlikely to vote SNP again. A one tier parliament in Scotland would ensure that my vote would be more representative of what I actually believe in rather than having to vote tactically. Such a parliament would be more accountable because more folk would be voting Labour, Green, Libdem knowing that there was an actual chance that it counted.

Previously voted for SNP, and independence, but this is among the issues that are putting me off. I used to like NS but I don’t see her the same way these days.

woolly have you read Labour's recent paper in relation to the Constitution? I find it difficult to understand why a non-SNP supporter votes SNP to get Indy tbh. It was the Labour Party who delivered Devolution with the overwhelming backing of Scotland. Otoh the SNP delivered a highly divisive Indy Ref with a 55% No Vote and 5 years of rancour and further division.

And being realistic, even if snp did get the ability to hold indyref2, we'd still be looking at them being in power for possibly the next 10 years whereas we could have a Labour government in the UK in 3.

I'd rather not waste the next 10 years on that shower of incompetents. They've had plenty long enough to effect real and meaningful improvements and have failed on every front.

We would also have to try and reshape whatever independent Scotland they created, which would be far from easy and in some ways impossible. Any settlement agreement for example would likely be complete, a currency would have been chosen, the basic parliamentary setup defined. Would we have a written constitution? Certainly last time their plans were bordering on delusional

Yes, Labour in the UK would be much better for Scotland in the next 10 years than indyref2 - even if independence wins, we're then plunged into huge costs, income reduction and more social division at a historically bad time.

16,000 top income tax payers in Scotland - how many of those are in highly skilled jobs that can relocate globally if they face significant uncertainty?

This is just one side of the story though- in fact, let’s be honest it’s Alex Salmonds side of the story. It’s a bit far fetched that the whole trial was orchestrated by Nicola and I don’t think there is any good evidence of that.

I think it's a bit naïve to think that voting for independence would mean getting rid of the SNP in the short term. For a start there is now talk of holding a referendum at the end of this year, just 6 months or so into the parliamentary term, which would give the SNP another >4 years before they would have to hold another election. (That's obviously assuming they can find some way around the section 30 thing to make it legitimate). In this time the SNP would be responsible for all of the very major tasks involved in setting up a country, as well as negotiating with the UK some kind of separation deal. Even if we decide to rejoin the EU on whatever terms they insist upon, and even if we meet the requirements, this process will take years. So the foundations of this new independent Scotland will be built by the party that is showing itself regularly to be corrupt, incompetent, and with a disturbing tendency to shut down debate and outlaw 'wrong thinking'. They can do a hell of a lot of damage in that time given free reign.

Also, if they can be as shit as they currently are and still persuade almost half the country to vote for them, there's a fair chance they'd be able to after independence too, especially with all the resources of power to rig things in their favour. A lot of people sadly seem to prefer slick presentation over actual substance. As above, we have a much better chance of a labour government, at least in the short term, by the staying in the UK.

Papers today reporting the catastrophic economic impact of independence too. Worse than brexit.

I'd also hope that we have some style of 2nd chamber but not really much incentive for that from the SNP point of view.

@WaxOnFeckOff interesting point.

Are there plans for that?

The regular poster/s of general misinformation suggest some time ago on a thread very far away that they were looking into it but I didn't investigated further.

Holyrood was never designed to be a one party system and whilst that is not the fault of the SNP, this far down the line you would have thought that resolving this might have been a priority. The other parties should have/be pushing this. Maybe they have or maybe it's all in hand, I certainly haven't seen anything.

Interesting stats for Glasgow versus Edinburgh. I hadn't realised how much more densely populated Glasgow is - may well be part of the reason for why it is by far the most impacted in Scotland.

I was surprised too! Edinburgh perhaps gets artificially reduced a bit by having Holyrood Park and Blackford Hill etc. included.

I think Glasgow still has more high rise - lots of the Edinburgh ones weren't as big to start with and many are gone now. But you might have a point about Blackford and Arthur's seat - I don't know if there are equivalent large unoccupied areas in Glasgow. I'm surprised too, they had never seemed that different density wise.

Guess it depends which definition of each place is being used too - Edinburgh Council is a lot bigger than the city and has swathes of countryside in it.

Are we not always told that Glasgow has more parks and green space than Edinburgh?

@anon444877

Yes, Labour in the UK would be much better for Scotland in the next 10 years than indyref2 - even if independence wins, we're then plunged into huge costs, income reduction and more social division at a historically bad time.

16,000 top income tax payers in Scotland - how many of those are in highly skilled jobs that can relocate globally if they face significant uncertainty?

The legal and financial sector will account for a fair few. Financial sector can easily relocate, legal less so.

One of the 16,000 is JK Rowling. Rowling was a staunch No to separatism last time round and I suspect will be on Joanna Cherry's side in the trans rights argument. Rowling paid £34.8million tax last year. Rowling may very well feel a separatist Scotland isn't for her.