Does it matter if Sturgeon is guilty - do you know or care?

[sessell]

Evidence of a conspiracy to frame Alex Salmond has been building. There are compelling reports in the Times, Herald , Sky News and across the internet. But there is less reporting in Scotland and a lot of people seem to not know or care. I'm Scottish but I don't live there. I've been hooked by this as a story of power and corruption. I'm on the fence re independence, just don't know enough so don't have an axe in that debate. I've never been an SNP member. But I do care about justice and that no-one should be above the law, especially politicians when they are seeking to imprison their potential rivals.

After reading this affadavit from Craig Murray which brings it all together and is incendiary I'm pretty convinced there has been a conspiracy and that Sturgeon and her collaborators should face justice. Although the justice department (Crown office) also seem to be mired in this. Here is the affadavit www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2021/01/my-sworn-evidence-on-the-sturgeon-affair/

I've shown this to a few people and have been shocked that a couple have said, yes it stinks but I like Sturgeon. I'd be interested in the views of Scotsnet. How much do you know about this? Do you care? Is it OK for our politicians to imprison their rivals, like Putin and co do, if you like their other objectives. Has Scotland become a corrupt nation? Is that OK?

@GreenlandTheMovie
I quite agree that it’s a big “if” regarding Scotland joining the EU. I feel this is another area where the voters might be misled.

Based on last time it seems likely that we will be told rejoining the EU is a certainty. It isn't, far from it

@daisyfraser

Greenland Interested to take a look at the writing on the problems of governance, please. If you have any links

If you're interested in academic writings, have a look at:

www.scottishconstitutionalfutures.org/OpinionandAnalysis/ViewBlogPost/tabid/1767/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/4550/Alan-Page-Its-Not-Just-About-the-Scottish-Parliaments-Powers-.aspx

Cairney, P (2013) How Can the Scottish Parliament Be Improved as a Legislature, Scottish Parliamentary Review, 1(1). Accessible at dspace.stir.ac.uk/handle/1893/16408#.VWoy3JWJjIU.

Adam Tomkins, professor of law at Glasgow University, is a current Conservative MSP. He posts frequently on his Facebook page, which is visible to the public mostly and is quite critical of the Scottish Government. His skills really are wasted in the Scottish Government though he does his best.

Its obvious that the Committee system doesn't work well, the Scottish legislature has too much power with too few checks and balances and there is insufficient qualified and competent staff within the Scottish Government to check the compliance of proposed legislation with existing laws, particularly human rights and competition law.

His skills really are wasted in the Scottish Government though he does his best.

Adam Tomkins is in the Scottish Parliament but he sits in Opposition to the Scottish Government. Bit nit picky but I notice all the time that the SNP attempt to conflate Holyrood with the current SNP Minority Govt and hence the SNP as the only legitimate political voice of Scotland. On the other side there are those who seek to delegitimise Holyrood in favour of Westminster by doing the same. Equally winds me up when Ian Blackford conveniently forgets that not all Scottish WM constituencies are represented by SNP MPs and so it is a complete nonsense to suggest he represents "the settled will of Scotland".

This line of thought would be the same as Boris claiming that his Conservative Govt speaks for the whole of Parliament and more widely the UK.

I am so long in the tooth I can't remember who taught me Public Law and now it's going to annoy me all afternoon and google is not helping.

Fair point, it's easy to forget the distinction as they're used almost interchangeably.

It's interesting seeing the various spins being applied in the media today, on both sides. Some outright lies, some big exaggerations and some good commentary. I am finding the "he didn't provide evidence" argument a tad annoyingly though. A lot of the time he didn't have to because the committee already have it or he's quoting stuff in the public record. Occasionally his answer was essentially "yes, but I'm not allowed to give you it" which isn't really his fault. I think there was only once when he genuinely didn't have evidence and that was when he discussed the legal advice the government was given but won't release. He was asked and it was one of the few times he was slightly flustered in his response. My take- and it is absolutely supposition on my part - is that he either has a copy or has been told what is in that advice but it was leaked by someone who he cannot out.

to be fair, he did categorically state he had no evidence at one point - on the question over Sturgeon's role in the alleged malicious attempt to damage his reputation, to the extent of having him imprisoned.

Murdo Fraser asked: Do you believe that the First Minister herself played any role in this?
Alex Salmond: As I have said, Mr Fraser, everything that I have said in the evidence that I have submitted to you can be backed up by
documentary evidence—every statement that I make. Therefore, as I do not have documentary evidence that suggests that the First Minister has text messages or any other piece of information that involved the First Minister, I have not made that accusation. That is because I decided, quite properly, I think, only to make statements that could be backed up by documentary evidence.'
(i copy and pasted that from the report you linked to earlier.)
So, yes it is just the one point he is admitting he doesn't have evidence to, but an important one.
There are other things that seem dubious to me evidence wise, but in this case he actually admits not having evidence.

Forgetting the distinction is the root of much of the weak commentary. Journalists often act as if criticising the NS administration is somehow taking Westminster's side against Holyrood.

All too often, like Newsnight last night, the SNP get 2 bites of the cherry via Ian Blackford speaking for Scotland at WM and NS speaking for Scotland at Holyrood and the responsibility to critique is covered off by whatever random Westminster MP they can muster. Newsnight didn't even bother with that nicety last night but had SNP MP nuancing with SNP MSP.

First job for Anas is to challenge this Every Single Time. Douglas Ross and Andrew Bowie / Alistair Jack are starting to address this better for the Tories, but it remains to be seen how things pan out when Ruth leaves Holyrood.

in the unlikely event Nicola does resign who would replace her? I'm thinking Humza. Joanna Cherry wouldn't succeed. So every party would likely have a male leader.

So, yes it is just the one point he is admitting he doesn't have evidence to, but an important one.
There are other things that seem dubious to me evidence wise, but in this case he actually admits not having evidence.

Yes, he says he has no evidence for that, so he has not made that allegation. You can't criticise him for not having evidence to support an accusation he doesn't make. That's the point - at the end of his evidence submission (from memory) he names several people who he believes have been involved an a malicious scheme(that may not be the right phrase) and Nicola Sturgeon is not one of those names

@jabbathebutt

in the unlikely event Nicola does resign who would replace her? I'm thinking Humza. Joanna Cherry wouldn't succeed. So every party would likely have a male leader.

They may drag it out for Angus Robertson

The next leader of the SNP will be...Alex Salmond!!!

I think he's dead as a dodo politically. Especially within the SNP.

Angus Robertson would have to win in Edinburgh Central which is currently Ruth's seat.
We don't know who is standing here yet.
The main thing is everyone needs to get out and vote - 55 or 56% last time is just ridiculous.
This saga will hopefully shake everyone out of their torpor and get to the polling station.

Standing for the Scot Tories in Edin Central, I mean

@Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow

The next leader of the SNP will be...Alex Salmond!!!

Salmond has some high-placed allies, though - Macaskill, Cherry as well as Craig Murray and Wings - the mad bloggers who seem to be gaining credibility rapidly all the same

@daisyfraser

Angus Robertson would have to win in Edinburgh Central which is currently Ruth's seat. We don't know who is standing here yet. The main thing is everyone needs to get out and vote - 55 or 56% last time is just ridiculous. This saga will hopefully shake everyone out of their torpor and get to the polling station.

I know - I wonder if he'll be on the list for Lothians too. They were VERY keen to get him as the candidate (it's my old hood). I'm not sure it'll go Tory again, I think Ruth Davidson attracted votes in spite of her party rather than because of it. Probably a tight race

Angus Robertson was placed in Edinburgh Central by the sturgeon crew to get rid of Joanna Cherry in Edinburgh Central. Joanna has huge support there, Angus does not. He is trying to crowdfund his fighting fund just now and it’s not happening for him. He may be Nicola’s choice to follow her but doubt he has the wider member support to lead the party.

@Blurberoo

Angus Robertson was placed in Edinburgh Central by the sturgeon crew to get rid of Joanna Cherry in Edinburgh Central. Joanna has huge support there, Angus does not. He is trying to crowdfund his fighting fund just now and it’s not happening for him. He may be Nicola’s choice to follow her but doubt he has the wider member support to lead the party.

Yes. Until Sturgeon changed the rules to prohibit JC standing while she was at WM I hope she crosses the floor to the Tories. Would be an epic outcome!

I think the order of that may be off - I think Cherry was pushed out to make way for Robertson rather than Robertson being used to get rid of JC. Different motives, same outcome

The goal was to get AR in to frontline politics again.

Yes, he says he has no evidence for that, so he has not made that allegation. You can't criticise him for not having evidence to support an accusation he doesn't make. That's the point - at the end of his evidence submission (from memory) he names several people who he believes have been involved an a malicious scheme(that may not be the right phrase) and Nicola Sturgeon is not one of those names

yes, but that's at the heart of this debate - indeed, is the title of this thread - 'does it matter if Sturgeon is Guilty - do you know or care' then the OP goes off into 'Evidence of a conspiracy to frame Alex Salmond has been building,' etc. So, as Salmond, by his own admission, is not making this claim, since he as no evidence, is that now the OP's question answered?

I think Blurberoo has this. There are around 15 SNP MSPs stepping down. Angus and Joanna had no need to stand against each other. There were plenty other options.

George Galloway reckons Salmond faction will sit back and let the SNP implode and start afresh with a new brand rather than trying to rebuild from within. Guess that depends on how the May election turns out.

"I think the order of that may be off - I think Cherry was pushed out to make way for Robertson rather than Robertson being used to get rid of JC. Different motives, same outcome"

I think there's a lot more to this situation than is in the public domain. Cos if you know, you know. And is the very essence of the split in the SNP. The layers on this are multiple & I don't think it's something that the SNP will be able to repair. It's inevitable IMO that the SNP split and internal factions will tear the foundations apart. Had they been able to keep a lid on it til after the election, you could see whoever 'wins' being absolutely ruthless in clearing out those not on message. But it's unraveling now, and as a result, I'd be very surprised if Robertson wins the Edinburgh Central seat.

Do we know who is standing for the other parties in that constituency yet?

(or made irrelevant since even Salmond himself is not claiming this?)

This thread is fascinating. I do hope there is another one to follow on OP as there is a lot to discuss in the coming days.

"There are around 15 SNP MSPs stepping down. Angus and Joanna had no need to stand against each other. There were plenty other options."

Exactly. This was a very tactical (and ruthless) decision for a multitude of reasons.