Does it matter if Sturgeon is guilty - do you know or care?

[sessell]

Evidence of a conspiracy to frame Alex Salmond has been building. There are compelling reports in the Times, Herald , Sky News and across the internet. But there is less reporting in Scotland and a lot of people seem to not know or care. I'm Scottish but I don't live there. I've been hooked by this as a story of power and corruption. I'm on the fence re independence, just don't know enough so don't have an axe in that debate. I've never been an SNP member. But I do care about justice and that no-one should be above the law, especially politicians when they are seeking to imprison their potential rivals.

After reading this affadavit from Craig Murray which brings it all together and is incendiary I'm pretty convinced there has been a conspiracy and that Sturgeon and her collaborators should face justice. Although the justice department (Crown office) also seem to be mired in this. Here is the affadavit www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2021/01/my-sworn-evidence-on-the-sturgeon-affair/

I've shown this to a few people and have been shocked that a couple have said, yes it stinks but I like Sturgeon. I'd be interested in the views of Scotsnet. How much do you know about this? Do you care? Is it OK for our politicians to imprison their rivals, like Putin and co do, if you like their other objectives. Has Scotland become a corrupt nation? Is that OK?

London's media regard Sturgeon as a useful weapon in their endless attempts to smear Boris.
Note the argument all day from journos like Lesley Riddoch (VERY close ally of Sturgeon, if you know what I mean!) and others whining 'Why don't the Tories look at their own corruption?'
All the media does all the time is attack Boris and the Tories. They've ignored the filthy goings-on at Holyrood. Deliberately
They don't seem to have given any credit at all for the vaccine deals

I think they thought “give them devolution and they will shut up”.

I never wanted devolution. It’s always been to satisfy the minority wanting independence and not I live under an incompetent and corrupt one-goal government

@noego

This isn't about personalities. This is pure incompetence. The bottom line is that no one in the hierarchy of the SG seems up to the job!! These are the people who are going to take Scotland into independence!! I wonder what the strategy is going to be? Can you imagine these people setting up trade deals, applying for EU membership? Sorting out their own currency? Hard border with the rest of the UK. The mind boggles. As an investor. Would I invest money in a country that is run in this shambolic way? The word despotic springs to mind!!!

This has been my research interest for the past 6 years. Scotland with its present governmental set up wouldn't even meet the basic criteria to be permitted by the EU to apply for EU membership. They would have to totally reform their legislature and strengthen their separation of powers and protection of the rule of law, under order of the EU, as happened with the Eastern European countries. But that was part of a big, deliberate, drive by the EU to increase membership, cost EU member states a fortune and still took 12 years. The EU have never said that they even want any more new members, never mind Scotland.

Sturgeon doesn't speak well, her shouty, hectoring style would not go down well amongst the West-Rhenish dominated trade deal negotiators. An independent Scotland would likely end up a bit like Lithuania or Estonia, but possibly even worse, begging to go back to the UK or join the EU in a few years.

We already know their strategy. It seems to be to constantly repeat that Scotland is a wonderful, unique country with great scenery and natural resources that the EU would love to have. And thats about it.

There have been quite a few academics in Scotland writing about the problems with Scottish governance for a few years now, but they have been largely ignored. Thank goodness people are paying attention at last, but there does seem to be a tendency towards cult worship and lack of intellectual curiosity amongst a number of Scots, so I wouldn't be against a "reformed" SNP party being re-elected to run Scotland yet again in the next election.

Does anyone still have the unredacted evidence or know where it can be found?

Actually, good point, how the AF could that lot be let loose with setting up an independent Scotland?!

Not surprised by this. But I just can't take to her anyway.

@Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow

neugo this is how I have felt for years with theSNP running my country. I just despair at how incompetent they are and I find their supporters utterly obsessed. It’s a cult

I’m glad it’s being viewed for what it is

Seconded. Many of us have felt like this for years. It’s almost a relief to see all the failures and corruption exposed. I’m ashamed and sad about how Scotland is currently globally perceived as a result of this inquiry, but if it brings down the SNP house of cards, with a chance to refresh and refocus, then I’m happy to take the hit on our reputation.

Here. Redactions are in bold

www.craigmurray.org.uk/

Also here on daily mail

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9289975/Alex-Salmond-forced-WITHDRAW-bombshell-evidence.html

@ATieLikeRichardGere

Does anyone still have the unredacted evidence or know where it can be found?

Last time I looked it was on CraigMurray's website, his blog is messy so just scroll down the front page. It's the one titled "Submission by Alex Salmond – Phase 4 – Ministerial Code" which was most heavily redacted.

The DM and Spectator were both publishing chunks too.

xposted with littlebrowndog - toddler climbing on me!

So the redactions, as far as I can see, have nothing to do with the complainants??

@WouldBeGood

Actually, good point, how the AF could that lot be let loose with setting up an independent Scotland?!

This. They couldn't manage to create a complaints process which was legal; how on earth are they going to manage to create all of the additional structures and institutions needed for a new country

@StatisticallyChallenged

Thank you! I found it on web.archive.org

@GreenlandTheMovie
Thank you for your clarity.

I think there are questions to be addressed about how easy it is for an electorate to think about one issue alone and that defines their politics. All the other issues that are normally considered seem to be immaterial to lots of Scots. It’s certainly heart before Head. Why does this matter above good democratic governance?

I think a few more Scottish people need to wise up and look hard at what Scottish politics has become. I wasn’t a huge fan of Labour in Scotland and it seems to me the long decline in standards started some time ago. The quality of some politicians appears poor and has been for decades. You could argue the notable politicians wanted Westminster seats.

No state of around 5million people means much to the EU. Of course Scotland will be sidelined if they ever get in. With the current shambles of non separation of governance, the Crown office snd the civil service it seems there’s a lot of work to do. Even the committees such a this one are poodles of the SNP. Westminster committees are much more critical and hold the government to account when necessary. The SNP are never critical of their own government hence it’s a one party dictatorship.

[quote ATieLikeRichardGere]@StatisticallyChallenged

Thank you! I found it on web.archive.org[/quote]
yeah you really don't have to look very hard, it was up for far too long and there was a lot of warning that it was going to be removed. They even left it up after it was supposed to be removed.

There must be thousands of people who have it.

Many of us have felt like this for years. It’s almost a relief to see all the failures and corruption exposed.

Worth noting that many within the SNP also feel like this. The growth in the Party and the numbers of MPs and MSPs and the churn in personnel has definitely left it exposed to entryism. Few people seem to realise that a lot of current SNP figures were relatively obscure Labour operatives sensing an opportunity for advancement (espec true at Council level but also applies to people as high profile as Jeanne F). Also a possible reason why despite being supposedly Left of Centre they often prefer to attack Labour rather than the Tories - lots of personal grudges. In fact every time they scream "Toarries" the implication is that Scotland needs them to save it from the evil menace cos for some unfathomable reason Labour .....

PresentingPercy No state of around 5million people means much to the EU. Of course Scotland will be sidelined if they ever get in.

I really want to stress how unlikely it is that an independent Scotland would gain EU membership in the lifetime of many Scots over 40. Even that figure is optimistic.

If voting for independence, Scots should realise that it would mean a Scotland outwith the UK, outwith the EU and possibly also not a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights, since there has been no firm comittment to this from the Scottish Government or the SNP.

If the SNP were somehow able to offer EU membership as a certainty following discussions with the EU, then that is the only way I'd vote for Scottish independence. The most likely outcome is not even EFTA, because I have doubts that the EFTA countries would want Scotland either. Maybe they could be some sort of associate member but without full rights of EFTA. Some SNP members are now talking about a "Celtic alliance" with Ireland. I wonder if the Irish know...

[quote PresentingPercy]@GreenlandTheMovie
Thank you for your clarity.

I think there are questions to be addressed about how easy it is for an electorate to think about one issue alone and that defines their politics. All the other issues that are normally considered seem to be immaterial to lots of Scots. It’s certainly heart before Head. Why does this matter above good democratic governance?

I think a few more Scottish people need to wise up and look hard at what Scottish politics has become. I wasn’t a huge fan of Labour in Scotland and it seems to me the long decline in standards started some time ago. The quality of some politicians appears poor and has been for decades. You could argue the notable politicians wanted Westminster seats.

No state of around 5million people means much to the EU. Of course Scotland will be sidelined if they ever get in. With the current shambles of non separation of governance, the Crown office snd the civil service it seems there’s a lot of work to do. Even the committees such a this one are poodles of the SNP. Westminster committees are much more critical and hold the government to account when necessary. The SNP are never critical of their own government hence it’s a one party dictatorship.[/quote]
Yes. Agreed

We don’t have a good democratic government

Greenland my outside bet is that the whole of the UK will end up inside some sort of EFTA arrangement and that is the real threat to the EU because it would instantly attract others. This is why the EU were never serious about the Norway option.

Would actually be a good thing if EU were minded to accept an arrangement of 2 broadly equal trading blocks, one fully integrated and the other not (so called 2 speed Europe). It solves lots of problems internally for them. However that flies in the face of "ever closer union".

I think the significance of what Salmond said yesterday & how he laid his arguments out are what Sturgeon will have difficulty in being able to dismiss as 'fantasy' or 'conspiracy theory'. There were allegations that are criminal. The Permanent Secretary was alleged to have obstructed justice. Also accused of failing in her duty of candour. She has had I think 4 sessions with the committee & failed to confirm her meeting 1 complainant & phoning another before Salmond had been told about the investigation/allegations. Yet did say it would have been inappropriate for her to have any contact with the complainants given that she was the deciding officer. That's huge. And it calls Sturgeon's judgement into question as she agreed to extend her contract, give her a pay rise, instead of sacking her.

The leak to the Daily Record was criminal. How that came about, with the timing alongside a government's efforts to get the information out, is going to be a very difficult issue to get around. That it's not been reported to the police & properly investigated isn't something I can fathom. And I'm not sure how Sturgeon can explain that either.

Those in the SNP who were trawling for more women to come forward after the police started their investigation. That very much sounded like interference with a police investigation. And that they were emailing not those that worked with him, who you would think were more likely to be close enough to be the focus of the alleged "inappropriate behaviour" makes that all the more striking in terms of motivation.

My eyes have certainly been opened with how Scotgov operates, through the GRA debacle & now the HCB too. There is something quite rotten at the core & the bloated 'success' of the SNP (built on minority/coalition administrations which were held to account when they had to reach a consensus etc.) has definitively attracted the sort of agenda driven careerists, who are anathema to good governance.

I think any attempts of Sturgeon to claim the level of ignorance to all of this, and not having any curiosity about all of this, will not reflect well on her. I agree, I think she will try & get many digs in to pivot back to Salmond's behaviour. But, Fabiani has been fairly consistent in cutting off that line of enquiry so far. I'd like to think that she'll continue to be consistent in that with Sturgeon - because this is about her government's handling of the complainants. Not Salmond's behaviour.

I also think she's breached the ministerial code multiple times. I think her government's efforts to obscure rather than co-operate with the enquiry, with her also not apparently being transparent is a difficult hurdle for her. I think she'll definitely do her best to get over that, but I can't yet fathom how to, when there is evidence but the crown appears to be suppressing key elements of it under the guise of the s162 arguments.

It'll be very interesting to see if the missing information on Scotgov discussions on the JR & hoping the criminal case will take over & also the evidence of the collusion & police investigation interference will be released before she appears. Because that'll go a long way to determining just how likely it is she'll be able to talk her way around all the pitfalls Salmond set up yesterday.

full report on yesterday's proceedings - 60 pages. I haven't read through it so I don't know if anything has been redacted.

"don't know if anything has been redacted"

You know we've reached the upper ends of absurdity when thats the 1st thing to wonder about! 6 hours worth of testimony many will have watched (and it's still up on the Scottish Parliament tv archive) & there's still a chance they'll try & redact bits.

I would imagine the crown office are putting in a shift this weekend to pour over it with a fine tooth comb.

Greenland
Interested to take a look at the writing on the problems of governance, please.
If you have any links

Isn't it just @TheShadowyFeminist. But it was an early thought. I'll look later. Based on one of the redacted paragraphs in the statement I think there might be but I'll need to check