Salmond v Sturgeon

[dementedma]

Well, now that Eck has lit the blue touch paper, things are going to get interesting!
Who is lying?
Who is telling the truth( or as close to it as any politician gets)
And, who will be left standing?

get your popcorn in

I was wondering why the Tories were doing press releases on this this weekend when the 'story ' was really months ago. The Tories are putting out their story re the investigation being a whitewash whilst they're currently preventing the EU Trade Bill being scrutinised. I saw that a couple of the Tory papers have Salmond vs Sturgeon as their top story. Nice deflection.

@Outsidemum1 thank you 😊
The gender recognition act is a wee bit of a red herring and if people think it will allow "men into women's spaces" they are wrong. It really is akin to people getting upset about gay marriage. It's not wokeness just because there are some of very vocal and offensive campaigners on Twitter.
In reality there are a tiny number of trans people in society and out of that number how many are actually evil predators? If they do something wrong and abuse power they will be breaking the law just like anyone else. We need to recognise that trans people are a ( really small) group who get a huge amount of prejudice. Why do we have separate men's and women's spaces anyway? We should try to make everywhere safe for everyone with cubicle toilets etc. I don't get stressed out using the changing village at the pool. When I could before all this

@Jodri it isn't just the SNP though, all political parties are stuffed full of people ( usually men)who are involved in dodgy behaviour and sex scandals, far more than you see in RL. Is it to do with a macho culture? It's awful and needs to change, ironically AS has been found guilty of being sleazy and he doesn't seem to like it. Very Trump.

Irrespective of whether AS is a misogynistic man, which I believe he is and who’s behaviour was overlooked by the party when he was in power, if NS has lied or misled parliament then she must be held to account.

We can not accept this behaviour, irrespective of the party they belong to, parliament and democracy must be respected and if our leader does not do this, they must be held to account.

Yes, it's not a question of who is worst here, we need leaders in this country who behave with honesty and integrity, failure of these basics means they must go regardless of the motivation. These things need to be brought into the open and dealt with for everyone's sakes.

Its incredible then how many transwomen have taken posts that should be for women
Surely they must be over represented and women even more under represented
Good laws cannot be made without clear definitions, there can be no definition of woman that includes males. If both groups needs are to be met they cannot be lumped together
I find NS an absolute hypocrite for crying misogyny whilst at the same time denying females representation

[quote ikswobel]@Outsidemum1 thank you 😊
The gender recognition act is a wee bit of a red herring and if people think it will allow "men into women's spaces" they are wrong. It really is akin to people getting upset about gay marriage. It's not wokeness just because there are some of very vocal and offensive campaigners on Twitter.
In reality there are a tiny number of trans people in society and out of that number how many are actually evil predators? If they do something wrong and abuse power they will be breaking the law just like anyone else. We need to recognise that trans people are a ( really small) group who get a huge amount of prejudice. Why do we have separate men's and women's spaces anyway? We should try to make everywhere safe for everyone with cubicle toilets etc. I don't get stressed out using the changing village at the pool. When I could before all this
[/quote]
Yes I read a really good letter on the subject - it's a bit long but worth the time.

mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/dear-jk-rowling/

The letter also helps clarify some of the misinformation around the law.

Absolutely @PapsofJura, I'm not interested in whether it was a 'Tory' paper that first picked it up - everyone has the story because its newsworthy. This also isn't about AS sleaziness - the issue is whether NS misled parliament, and if she did, she should face the same penalties anyone else would be expected to.

• Misunderstanding

@WaxOnFeckOff @PapsofJura I don't think she misled parliament though. It's a case of he said she said with ASs lawyer saying one thing and NS saying another. We really don't know. And the fact that NSs husband didn't corroborate her story is interesting as it shows they aren't discussing matters.
I do think there needs to be a bit of caution taken. Why are opponents aligning themselves with AS here? He's admitted to being sleazy. And as all the information was sub judice for a long time NS was not in a position to share with parliament.

Exactly what did she mislead Parliament about? Detail please? What would she gain from lying about the date or content of a meeting? I believe AS wasn't even at the first meeting..

Place marking

Yes I saw NS say that she is told confidential things all the time as FM. Of course she is.
I couldn't believe it when there was a big covid update in Parliament and the questions from RD only related to AS. And DR in on the action via social media. Simply trying to find anything they can smear her with and AS is annoyed she didn't sweep it under the carpet ( although he was of course found non guilty anyway). Again, what has NS done that's so terrible?

It doesn't really matter what we think and whether we believe she misled parliament or not, what matters is the truth and I welcome the opportunity to get to the truth. I think they are all liars but that's my opinion, so in the meantime, i'm happy to get the popcorn out and watch matters unfold.

It's beginning to look like NS may have told a couple of wee lies and now she's dug a huge hole. It's always been dodgy her and Murrell in the main roles. It's not just this thing between AS/NS though, there is also the small issue of the missing ringfenced independence fighting fund. It's unfortunate that this is blowing up now, but the SNP really needs some close examination. I say this as an Indy supporter.

@HighHeelBootsIt's been possible to change gender legally for many many years and these people have been able to access "women's jobs" throughout. Because they are legal women. There is so little threat here and Scotland is not overrun with weird trans predators. We need a culture of openness,equality and acceptance. You couldn't make up the irony of people siding with AS and his sleazy views while witch hunting NS and ordinary unpolitical trans people.

If as NS suggests, AS is annoyed that she wouldn't sweep it under the carpet, does that not contradict her position that she had no knowledge of the accusations? The time lines are important here and I think warrant further investigation, but some aspects of NS account don't stand up to scrutiny, including her 'forgotten' meetings, and not minuting prearranged meetings in her capacity as FM. Are we really supposed to believe that she didn't discuss this matter with her SNP chief executive husband given the ramifications for the SNP and independence movement? And what of the legal advice she received months before eventually dropping the case that it wasn't going to fly? Why continue with this action, at great expense to the tax payer, long after you know it won't get anywhere and only drop if when your lawyers threatened to quit?

At the very least, there are important questions to be answered here and the terms of the enquiry must be widened to fully investigate these.

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us all I am learning from this thread is that lots of posters on here have never worked in the public sector. There are many many meetings at all levels which are not minuted and even meetings which are often just take the form of a précis or notes in an email.
Only formal committees and parliamentary affairs are minuted verbatim.

It’s not enough for us to “think” she didn’t lie/misled parliament as this really is a big deal so we need evidence that she either did or didn’t. Again it’s about respect for parliament and the democratic process. That’s the issue at stake here and if we are prepared to let this slide it becomes a very slippery slope.

I'm not the thread police here, but there are thousands of threads about the the trans debate and only one about the AS/NS issue so maybe try to keep (reasonably) on topic?

Douglas Ross is saying
“ Nobody ever bought Nicola Sturgeon’s tall tales to have suddenly turned forgetful, especially about the devastating moment she found out of sexual harassment allegations against her friend and mentor of 30 years.”

But I think that actually it’s probably pretty hard to pinpoint when she first heard the allegations because I think that although apparently innocent of illegal activity, AS is and was a well known sleaze and bully. It’s like the Weinstein affair, an “open secret” most women would know but most would not be able pinpoint any actual evidence.

[quote ikswobel]@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us all I am learning from this thread is that lots of posters on here have never worked in the public sector. There are many many meetings at all levels which are not minuted and even meetings which are often just take the form of a précis or notes in an email.
Only formal committees and parliamentary affairs are minuted verbatim. [/quote]
That's perhaps true. But if you are told that your former boss, mentor and friend for several years has been accused of sexual assault and rape you are going to remember that without needing minutes to jog your memory.

And as for someone quoting a letter by Mermaids - just don't. I personally agree that everyone deserves to live as they choose and has the right to do so free of persecution, harm and violence. But you can very much advocate for basic rights for everyone without throwing women under the bus to do so.

1. When I first heard about the Court case against AS I thought that he would be biting the dust.

1. I was amazed that he was acquitted on all counts.

1. I saw the programme that Kirsty Walk did on AS and was surprised that the BBC allowed it to be transmitted, as it seemed to directly challenge the court verdict.

1. The Spectator magazine has published an article stating that this saga may well be the end of NS career.

1. Not being particularly au fait with SNP politics, I still don't fully understand why AS is out after NS in this manner. I had thought that they worked well together and that NS may well achieve his life's work of an independent Scotland.

I really like Scotland and it's people etc and have no wish to see Scotland leave the Union.

Detest them both. Don't care who wins (hope they both lose) but will thoroughly enjoy the spectacle.