Salmond v Sturgeon

[dementedma]

Well, now that Eck has lit the blue touch paper, things are going to get interesting!
Who is lying?
Who is telling the truth( or as close to it as any politician gets)
And, who will be left standing?

get your popcorn in

I don't want either to "win". I just hope it forces the truth out and if that means it brings them all down then so be it.

I don't like any of them, they are all flawed, no winners would be a result for me.

Lots of people on Twitter painting this as 'sleazy misogynistic man' vs 'successful woman', and NS herself seems to be implying she's being targeted because she's a woman. As a woman I'm really offended when other women try to use this card to excuse their behaviour. The fact she is female, or that AS is a creep, is irrelevant to the facts of the case, which really do appear to show that she lied to parliament and made some very questionable decisions in regards to this case. If that is proven true, she should resign, just as any man would be expected to - she shouldn't get a free pass because she's a woman, popular, or anything else.

I agree, I couldn't care less whether the people involved are male or female. Sleazy and sleekit and liars all around. I hate the narrative that we should support sturgeon as a strong example to young women and girls. I'd rather the examples we were holding up were people of integrity and compassion and it matters not whether they are women or men.

Personally I don't care too much that NS couldn't remember the content of a meeting two years ago. She has a lot of s*it going on! I don't know if AS is going after her in the way the newspapers are making out. He was cleared of all charges I don't really get why there's so much interest in it still. Anyone care to enlighten me?

Recent article in spectator on this: www.spectator.co.uk/article/now-the-trial-of-nicola-sturgeon-begins

@Outsidemum1 this goes a bit beyond a misremembered meeting (which I find totally implausible personally). The problem is that, if the evidence from AS is proven correct, she repeatedly broke the ministerial code and misled parliament about it. Further to the meetings which were apparently not logged or minuted as government business should be, she then allegedly continued action against AS despite legal advice that the case was unstatable, and only abandoned it when government lawyers threatened to quit over it, costing the tax payer substantial amounts of money. Finally, after her own deputy set the terms of the inquiry to be so narrow that her more dubious dealings wouldn't be scrutinised, the government has been so uncooperative even the SNP convenor has expressed frustration over it.

I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories, but frankly the whole thing stinks of misusing government machinery.

Misusing government machinery to what end? Smearing AS as a personal vendetta?

Who knows. Maybe. Too much doesn't add up though, something is definitely off.

He’s a raging narcissist of the highest order and would rather destroy the party he built up so much than see someone else have a shot at being the first leader of an independent Scotland.

He was all buddy- buddy with Trump until their egos couldn’t fit on the same golf course.

I don’t agree with the SNP generally, abs wouldn’t trust either of them, but she’s a lot better than him.

They’ll just tear their party apart. Joanna Cherry is definitely the one who could benefit from that, but they’ve no strength and depth of quality to successfully run much. And JC is every bit as sleekit as the other two put together. With bells on.

If she lied to Parliament she has to go End of.

The whole court case and handling by SNP was very suspect and a lot of information was redacted. It wasn’t widely reported in the media, probably because they couldn’t say much. I do remember journalist Craig Murray was charged with contempt of court for writing about it. Hasn’t another blogger or journalist who was charged with contempt of court just been found innocent?

The SNP used public money to take Alec salmond to court so they need to justify their actions.

Yes the allegations were extremely serious but in a court of law alec salmond was found innocent. I have never met him and have no opinion on what he is like as a person, I can only judge him on how well he ran Scotland. He kept foot and mouth out of Scotland and was criticised for his draconian rules at the time but don’t we all wish Covid-19 had been kept out of Scotland?
Like independence referendums are they just going to keep going till they get the result they want?

I think one of the reasons they wanted to get rid of Alec salmond was that he had an RT show. I remember RT was the only media outlet that would interview SNP in the early days before MSM couldn’t get enough of them. RT is often criticised for being too sympathetic to Russia and Putin and with NS desire to rejoin EU I’m sure being in bed with RT does not bode well and they want to sever any connections.
AS was also wary of NS being party leader and her husband being chief executive of the SNP party. I agree with him, it doesn’t look good. I believe they do talk party politics when their door closes.

I’m disappointed people are using the misogynistic card. It’s not surprising though as I’ve heard NS use this often, most recently in a Twitter spat of all places. Shame as I think it’s used here just to shut down discussion and avoiding getting to the truth.

@dementedma

I despise AS but he has a formidable intellect and a degree of Machiavellian cunning that makes him a ruthless opponent. And this is personal. I think he will be her nemesis and the irony of it is pretty sweet to those of us who aren’t Nats.

Agree with all of this. AS is a slick operator and very sleekit. As is Sturgeon. Neither of them are coming out of this covered in glory, are they?

Salmond as someone with having a reputation as a bit handsy, Sturgeon claiming she has no recollection about being told of these serious allegations about her mentor, friend, first minister. And she was in the house at the time it was being discussed with her husband, but she didn't know about it? Yeah right.

It'll be a cold day in hell before I vote SNP but at least Joanna Cherry is clear on the correct definition of "woman".

@RaspberryCoulis

Do we have to have this stupidity about “the correct definition of woman” on every MN thread? JC may agree with your view, which I’m sure is lovely, but I don’t think anyone appointed you as the sole decision maker re what is or isn’t an appropriate definition.

It's very important to many Scottish women. And there's a case going through the court at the moment to challenge a definition drawn up by the Scottish Government, which basically says anyone who says they are a woman, is a woman.

But if you think it's "stupidity", then crack on.

I don't think raspberry is alone in this. I'm happy to be inclusive and treat people I meet as I find them but just saying you are a woman doesn't change your sex and shouldn't allow you access to abused women in prisons etc. Not that we'll be able to say that soon, even in our private homes. We don't even need to offend someone, they just need to think that someone might be offended. Unless of course you are saying something about an actual woman, as they are not protected from abuse.

Completely agree that @RaspberryCoulis isn’t alone. Sadly there are other bigots out there, just as there are other racists, chauvinists etc.

As a biological female, I’m proud that most women I know find those exclusionary views pretty sad and abhorrent.

Not being alone and representing a majority view are quite different concepts.

Yes, the SNP would do well to remember that.

AS is a revolting person who admitted in court that he thinks it's ok to stroke his female employees' hair. Ok he hasn't actually committed an offence but a serious disciplinary matter and he was put out of the SNP.
There isn't actually much of a case to answer for NS. The accusations were brought by a group of very senior Scottish government civil servants and NS (and her husband )spent months tying themselves in knots to avoid perjury and identification of those involved. Ironically it's led to this -typical of any bullying or HR investigation where the guilty party deflects attention by trying to implicate others. AS also smacks of a man who thinks he should be in charge of independence now there seems like a chance of getting there- but his actions are just going to throw that away if he continues. Just another awful man in the tradition of George Galloway, Tommy Sheridan and yes lovely Jack McConnell going that way too.
The media are complicit in all of this- first because a certain Newsnight journalist went to school and uni with the civil servants who brought the case and then all the usual suspects gunning to find anything to pin on the SNP.
It's a huge mess and the main problem is that Scotland is a very small society where everyone is closely connected- as we know on Scotsnet ..
Joanna Cherry can't be leader of the SNP in Holyrood unless she stands as an MSP. I think it's very unlikely they would go with her at this point as the conservatives have a similar situation.
The whole fuss over gender recognition is another reason why she is an unlikely candidate as the court cases she has been involved with are divisive in the party.
On that topic I agree with pps who said why bring that into everything!!!

Actually one of few things that gives me some comfort about the SNP is that there is a faction (like Joanna Cherry) who reject the ultra-woke acceptance of all things trans and recognise that some aspects of trans-ideology conflict with the rights of women. I'm all for equal opportunities for all whatever their gender identity as long as it doesn't override sex-based rights as laid out in the equality act. Watching the Greens and Lib Democrats reject an amendment that would give women who are victims of rape the right to be examined by a biological female was horrifying.

But yes, this has little to do with Sturgeon's conduct, which if true should be a resigning matter.

[quote Balhammom]@RaspberryCoulis

Do we have to have this stupidity about “the correct definition of woman” on every MN thread? JC may agree with your view, which I’m sure is lovely, but I don’t think anyone appointed you as the sole decision maker re what is or isn’t an appropriate definition.[/quote]
You mean the legal definition as in the equality act?

@ikswobel I did not know that AS said in court that it is ok to stroke a woman’s hair, that really is not on!
Why on Earth did the women let him get away with that though? I’d rather clean toilets than work under that culture.
I would be, wtf don’t touch me! If he was known as a sleaze, how on Earth did he get to be the leader?
NS is not accountable for his actions but people tend to know who is sleazy and either stay away or quite rightly complain. Wasn’t there talk of ‘remember, don’t let derek McKay drink too much at the Christmas party’. So is unacceptable behaviour the norm for SNP?
This wasn’t the 1980s when women in lingerie were on the side of tins tenants larger and sinead O’Connor was vilified for saying that priests abused children.

He intends to bring her down but she is able to talk her way out of difficult situations . She can even persuade her followers she’s doing a great job despite the evidence to the contrary but then they are Nationalists .

@ikswobel

AS is a revolting person who admitted in court that he thinks it's ok to stroke his female employees' hair. Ok he hasn't actually committed an offence but a serious disciplinary matter and he was put out of the SNP. There isn't actually much of a case to answer for NS. The accusations were brought by a group of very senior Scottish government civil servants and NS (and her husband )spent months tying themselves in knots to avoid perjury and identification of those involved. Ironically it's led to this -typical of any bullying or HR investigation where the guilty party deflects attention by trying to implicate others. AS also smacks of a man who thinks he should be in charge of independence now there seems like a chance of getting there- but his actions are just going to throw that away if he continues. Just another awful man in the tradition of George Galloway, Tommy Sheridan and yes lovely Jack McConnell going that way too. The media are complicit in all of this- first because a certain Newsnight journalist went to school and uni with the civil servants who brought the case and then all the usual suspects gunning to find anything to pin on the SNP. It's a huge mess and the main problem is that Scotland is a very small society where everyone is closely connected- as we know on Scotsnet .. Joanna Cherry can't be leader of the SNP in Holyrood unless she stands as an MSP. I think it's very unlikely they would go with her at this point as the conservatives have a similar situation. The whole fuss over gender recognition is another reason why she is an unlikely candidate as the court cases she has been involved with are divisive in the party. On that topic I agree with pps who said why bring that into everything!!!

And I agree with everything you've said.