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Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

Scottish schools opening

799 replies

chocciechocface · 02/08/2020 13:55

I was ready for schools opening, but this new research has given me pause for thought. I think this came out after Sturgeon's decision. What do you all think?

www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/07/31/georgia-children-covid-outbreak/#click=t.co/Y9gSG9zENz

Quote from the article:

"A new report suggests that children of all ages are susceptible to coronavirus infection and may also spread it to others — a finding likely to intensify an already fraught discussion about the risks of sending children back to school this fall.

The analysis, released Friday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, details an outbreak at a sleep-away camp in Georgia last month in which 260 children and staffers — more than three-quarters of the 344 tested — contracted the virus less than a week after spending time together in close quarters. The children had a median age of 12. The camp had required all 597 campers and staff members to provide documentation that they had tested negative for the virus before coming. Staff were required to wear masks, but children were not."

OP posts:
SengaStrawberry · 07/08/2020 19:08

How much slower do you expect it to be @chocciechocface though? The whole reason schools were closed was as part of this “flattening the curve” strategy. Not so no one ever would never get the virus. They’ve already been out of school 5 months. I get it’s unpredictable and nothing is ideal and I do actually despite wanting them back FT think a phased return for a time would have been sensible but I don’t think a year of it with no ambition to get them back properly and fucking up exams for 2 years in a row.

SengaStrawberry · 07/08/2020 19:10

And of course I accept the virus is serious. I’ve watched the news the last 5 months. I am not advocating everything going back to normal in society but schools need to be the priority and not a half arsed afterthought

SengaStrawberry · 07/08/2020 19:14

And I am most certainly not a herd immunity advocate. I actually think the no Covid strategy is sensible and has helped get cases down in Scotland. But even that is no guarantee that no one will never get it, especially in the absence of a vaccine.

randomsabreuse · 07/08/2020 19:17

My mental health will not cope with much more time homeschooling/fully amusing my 4 year old while trying to prevent my 20 month old from destroying himself/the house/ his sister.

Part time school would probably delay me totally losing it for a little while, but not definitely.

We are counting down the days until school starts, she misses spending time with/near other children, I miss the occasional silence, ability to do stuff like washing and hear myself think.

I'm assuming there will be lockdowns, self isolation and tests over the winter - I have delayed my much longed for job hunt on this assumption, but we need her to have the opportunity to be in a school environment (relocation means she did reception last year and will be in P1 in August) which she loved very much! Just hoping we have enough time in full time school to recharge batteries!

AudacityOfHope · 07/08/2020 19:23

I think schools have been relegated to exactly half-arsed afterthought status! If that wasn't the case some sort of actual sensible measures and precautions would have been put in place and funded by the government.

As it is, it's doors open and cross your fingers that your adults at home won't die.

britINscotland · 07/08/2020 19:48

Not a nationalist.

Lost an aunt to Covid 19. DH's boss had it pretty bad but recovered. Friend's DM died of Covid 19. Another friend lost a brother in law.

I'd prefer schools to go back full time but now I am getting worried. Its mostly shock that "back to school" means "same as before". Not even the minimum seems to be in place at DDs school or at least they haven't said.

chocciechocface · 07/08/2020 20:54

Senga - How much slower do you expect it to be @chocciechocface though?

I can't answer that. And this is a fundamental problem. People (and I'm not necessarily saying you) want absolute answers and are perplexed when certainty isn't forthcoming. Scientists saying 'we don't know', means they're somehow useless. And I don't know if you've noticed, but scientists say 'we don't know' a lot in interviews. Science advice changing as events unfold is an indicator to many that the earlier advice was garbage, not proof that science is learning from increasing data.

The situation is fluid. I honestly don't think British people are culturally cut out for this, and our horrific death rate supports that view. I come from a country which has been tearing itself to pieces for twenty years, rolling from crisis to crisis. People in my country roll with the punches, because they have no choice and just have to find a way to get on with it because no one is going to rescue them. And I don't feel the same sense of horrific selfishness coming through in chat groups at home that I do among British people here.

This idea that some British people seem to have, that we can return to normal during a pandemic, that we are entitled to 'normal' irrespective of anything else because of 'our rights' etc, strikes me as first world entitlement in a nutshell.

I'm not minimising the shit people have to deal with. Note that both my parents have had to shut their businesses and they're facing COVID in a country with zero healthcare. I may never see them again in my life.

However I am gently warning you (generic you), from experience, that if you don't adjust to the extraordinary harsh terms of this current reality, any feelings you may have now about what 'we deserve' or 'should happen' will pale into insignificance if things flame out of control. The poor mental health of a child, for example, from not seeing their friends is nothing compared to the mental health consequences of having a parent die, especially if you are the child that brought the virus home. Or of seeing others you know die.

To British people, this scenario is inconceivable, because yours is a society that has always been buffered from harsh realities. There's very much a 'it won't happen to us' vibe. It seems alarmist to say what I am saying. But in my experience, shit things do get worse and worse and worse. And it is already happening here. Next to the US, more of us have died than anywhere else. It is a fucking disaster.

Instead of thinking about the virus as a disease, imagine instead it was snipers hiding around us randomly firing bullets into communities all over the country. Some people will be killed, others seriously hurt. Now imagine sending your child to school in that scenario. Would we even be having these conversations?

Now I did grow up in a war zone. And that involved going to school with bunkers, and armed soldiers on our school bus. So life does go on in terrible times, but usually with measures put in place. How do you think my education went after ten years in a war zone? (FWIW I have post-graduate degrees). I will say though that having a face to face confrontation with danger and death all the time gave me night terrors as a child. I was terrified people would die. And I am alert, now, to the fact that my children might also have to deal with that with the ways schools are opening.

The problem here is everyone wants back NOW, with limited measures put in place, zero tolerance for compromise. Boozy nights out. No social distancing in schools. Masks being described as muzzles. Anti-vaxxers talking about vitamins we should take instead. It's fucking pathetic.

In my mind, for the time it takes science to refine treatments or come up with a vaccine, we should all be accepting things need to change. We can try and put a time limit on it, but that is arbitrary and artificial. The virus is still going to be a contagious virus and do what it's going to do irrespective of the deadlines set. This resistance to change or restrictions on 'freedom' and rights is prolonging the agony and just resulting in more and more people dying.

OP posts:
MumofHunter · 07/08/2020 20:58

Sorry to hear that Brit. Unfortunately it's a disease which can kill anyone. 😢

I KNOW I shouldn't do it but I had a quick look at the page that shall not be named.

Just when you think they couldn't get anymore bats*it crazy - the main oracle who writes daily (Matthew) has written a piece on how living in Scotland and being asked to wear a mask in shops etc is the same level of oppression as living under the Taliban in Afghanistan.

WTAF.

chocciechocface · 07/08/2020 21:00

What a fucking dickhead.

OP posts:
chocciechocface · 07/08/2020 21:01

God that makes me angry. I'd love to take him home with me to my country so he knows what real oppression is.

OP posts:
chocciechocface · 07/08/2020 21:02

That is such an insult to everyone I know who has suffered. Fucking insufferable arsehole.

OP posts:
britINscotland · 07/08/2020 21:06

I saw that. I agree. asshole.

MumofHunter · 07/08/2020 21:08

Choccie you write so eloquently. Can I ask, where did you live when you were young?

I really feel you would be fantastic in government .

MumofHunter · 07/08/2020 21:21

Oh I just saw your replies. Glad we're all in agreement.

And still eloquent 😉😀

Dinosauratemydaffodils · 07/08/2020 21:30

Now I did grow up in a war zone. And that involved going to school with bunkers, and armed soldiers on our school bus.

I didn't grow up in a war zone but my df used to have to search under the car for bombs and we had armed soldiers on the school bus, plus you could legitimately use "my homework got blown up Miss" as an excuse. Not to mention lots of bomb drills (i still don't like being near windows in public buildings), evacuation drills and soldiers everywhere.

That said, I'm really struggling to adjust. Accepting this as normal however short a normal seems like giving up on everything I fought for after a couple of horrendous experiences.

This idea that some British people seem to have, that we can return to normal during a pandemic, that we are entitled to 'normal' irrespective of anything else because of 'our rights' etc, strikes me as first world entitlement in a nutshell.

One of my relatives (University professor) is meant to be in local lockdown in England right now. However Waitrose isn't within the area locked down so he's ignoring it because he can't possibly shop anywhere else. Not sure it's all British people though, I think it's very possibly a class thing. I used to work with Homeless people in Aberdeen. Plenty of them understood losing everything because they had, often repeatedly. Money protects from most things and buys a certain kind of arrogance, possibly why it's Aberdeen that's locked down again.

Tomorrowisanewday · 07/08/2020 22:40

Dinosauratemydaffodils I think you're right - I work in Aberdeen but I come from a very working class background further south, and the level of entitlement from some people in aberdeen never fails to astound me

lastkisstoo · 07/08/2020 23:02

@chocciechocface

Senga - How much slower do you expect it to be *@chocciechocface* though?

I can't answer that. And this is a fundamental problem. People (and I'm not necessarily saying you) want absolute answers and are perplexed when certainty isn't forthcoming. Scientists saying 'we don't know', means they're somehow useless. And I don't know if you've noticed, but scientists say 'we don't know' a lot in interviews. Science advice changing as events unfold is an indicator to many that the earlier advice was garbage, not proof that science is learning from increasing data.

The situation is fluid. I honestly don't think British people are culturally cut out for this, and our horrific death rate supports that view. I come from a country which has been tearing itself to pieces for twenty years, rolling from crisis to crisis. People in my country roll with the punches, because they have no choice and just have to find a way to get on with it because no one is going to rescue them. And I don't feel the same sense of horrific selfishness coming through in chat groups at home that I do among British people here.

This idea that some British people seem to have, that we can return to normal during a pandemic, that we are entitled to 'normal' irrespective of anything else because of 'our rights' etc, strikes me as first world entitlement in a nutshell.

I'm not minimising the shit people have to deal with. Note that both my parents have had to shut their businesses and they're facing COVID in a country with zero healthcare. I may never see them again in my life.

However I am gently warning you (generic you), from experience, that if you don't adjust to the extraordinary harsh terms of this current reality, any feelings you may have now about what 'we deserve' or 'should happen' will pale into insignificance if things flame out of control. The poor mental health of a child, for example, from not seeing their friends is nothing compared to the mental health consequences of having a parent die, especially if you are the child that brought the virus home. Or of seeing others you know die.

To British people, this scenario is inconceivable, because yours is a society that has always been buffered from harsh realities. There's very much a 'it won't happen to us' vibe. It seems alarmist to say what I am saying. But in my experience, shit things do get worse and worse and worse. And it is already happening here. Next to the US, more of us have died than anywhere else. It is a fucking disaster.

Instead of thinking about the virus as a disease, imagine instead it was snipers hiding around us randomly firing bullets into communities all over the country. Some people will be killed, others seriously hurt. Now imagine sending your child to school in that scenario. Would we even be having these conversations?

Now I did grow up in a war zone. And that involved going to school with bunkers, and armed soldiers on our school bus. So life does go on in terrible times, but usually with measures put in place. How do you think my education went after ten years in a war zone? (FWIW I have post-graduate degrees). I will say though that having a face to face confrontation with danger and death all the time gave me night terrors as a child. I was terrified people would die. And I am alert, now, to the fact that my children might also have to deal with that with the ways schools are opening.

The problem here is everyone wants back NOW, with limited measures put in place, zero tolerance for compromise. Boozy nights out. No social distancing in schools. Masks being described as muzzles. Anti-vaxxers talking about vitamins we should take instead. It's fucking pathetic.

In my mind, for the time it takes science to refine treatments or come up with a vaccine, we should all be accepting things need to change. We can try and put a time limit on it, but that is arbitrary and artificial. The virus is still going to be a contagious virus and do what it's going to do irrespective of the deadlines set. This resistance to change or restrictions on 'freedom' and rights is prolonging the agony and just resulting in more and more people dying.

Wonderful post @chocciechocface
Callisto1 · 07/08/2020 23:11

I think for a lot of people the threat of getting ill with Covid is abstract, whereas the everyday struggle of home education is real. And no one can tell you how likely a local outbreak in school is or how bad the effects of getting ill are for your family. Not precisely anyway.

The gamble we take when the children go back to school is very individual as are the benefits of full time. So it is hard to find a compromise that will work for everyone. At the moment it seems that the hope is it won't be too bad, but if anyone in our family was vulnerable I would probably not send my child to school. Ultimately you can choose to home educate if you deem the risk too great.

cantstopsinginglittlebabybum · 07/08/2020 23:40

I don't want my son to go back. I think it's too soon.

SengaStrawberry · 07/08/2020 23:44

I suppose fundamentally it comes down to how we see the risk @chocciechocface. I think with the numbers as low as they are In Scotland that the aim of getting them back to school full time is reasonable. Personally I would prefer the blended learning for a period and not back FT right away as I think this would be best for the kids. I think other suppression measures outside schools need to continue and in no way advocate “going back to normal”. I reckon I am pretty up for compromise. Hence why I very quickly left UfT as they are not. Your attitude to risk is clearly that there should be no risk of anyone getting the virus before schools can fully go back.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 07/08/2020 23:54

rainuntilseptember yes, I think that is the SD they are planning - staggering that aims the kids are all together and encouraging hygiene.

I can't help but think that what will actually happen is kids will quickly start to descend into gobbing into each other's faces yelling "bwaaa, you got covid!" and snogging and hugging. Beasue, how can they not? They are teens, high on youth's immortality.

It's fucking terrifying.

Zog14 · 08/08/2020 00:05

I spoke to a paediatrician recently, he told me, they were swabbing all the children coming into sick kids hospital in Edinburgh and they had not had a Covid positive result for months.

I was a bit comforted by this to be honest, as I am in the vulnerable group and concerned for my own health, when my child goes back to school. The message seem to be, The children were not carrying the virus, but they did not understand why. The children were not asymptomatic carriers either, they just simply did not have it.

Thought I would share this in case it allays any fears. Obviously the schools returning is not risk-free, but I do wonder now, if it is lower risk than I had feared? I don’t think I had really believed, the message that children were not as at risk. I think I thought we were being managed, and it was a way of dampening down concerns about schools returning.

Anyway time will tell . . .

Goingdownto · 08/08/2020 00:10

If they're anything like my dc, they've been at home for the past months and only starting to go out again toward the end of July.

buenavistabelle · 08/08/2020 10:38

@Goingdownto

If they're anything like my dc, they've been at home for the past months and only starting to go out again toward the end of July.
Yes this. There is evidence to suggest that children do contract the virus, become ill and can pass it on. But this isn't going to happen if they don't come into contact with anyone that has it.
randomsabreuse · 08/08/2020 10:55

Anyone going into hospital who has or has had a temperature gets a Covid swab and is treated as potentially positive unless proven otherwise. I was in with suspected (since confirmed and dealt with) appendicitis, had a swab... Realistically most children ill enough to go into hospital will have or have had a temperature over 37.8 as they tend to run them with little provocation (ignoring orthopaedic reasons...)

Schools are relatively easy to track and trace and opening schools (and keeping them open) is probably a good justification to maintain requirements for social distancing elsewhere and slow down other things opening.

Small children don't naturally distance from their peers. Older children probably can.

I'd love school to be nearly normal, at least while we're still in summer/early autumn... if it proves a problem when we run into winter plague season, then is the time to roll back into part time schooling, probably following the exit of local or more widespread lockdowns.

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