Scottish schools opening

[chocciechocface]

I was ready for schools opening, but this new research has given me pause for thought. I think this came out after Sturgeon's decision. What do you all think?

www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/07/31/georgia-children-covid-outbreak/#click=t.co/Y9gSG9zENz

Quote from the article:

"A new report suggests that children of all ages are susceptible to coronavirus infection and may also spread it to others — a finding likely to intensify an already fraught discussion about the risks of sending children back to school this fall.

The analysis, released Friday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, details an outbreak at a sleep-away camp in Georgia last month in which 260 children and staffers — more than three-quarters of the 344 tested — contracted the virus less than a week after spending time together in close quarters. The children had a median age of 12. The camp had required all 597 campers and staff members to provide documentation that they had tested negative for the virus before coming. Staff were required to wear masks, but children were not."

@SockYarn

It's not denial. It's more an acceptance that this virus might be around for a while and we can just add it to the long list of other risks which we live with every day. It's also a recognition that we simply can't all stay in our houses until a vaccine comes along.

That doesn't mean thinking it's all fake news or not doing things like washing your hands. That's all important stuff - but we all as a planet need to get on with things eventually and kids back to school is a key part of that.

Yes to this.

We are going round in circles with this.

Senga - Yes, there is a disconnect somewhere. I suspect it's because some think the virus is very serious and others don't.

You, I'm guessing, think full time education is a priority because you don't see it as taking a massive risk? I would probably take a similar view if schools were closed en masse for very long time because of something like the weather. But this is a pandemic.

Presumably too, I think some make a distinction between death (=serious), and cases ( =not that serious and worth tolerating).

I, on the other hand, don't accept that cases is something we should tolerate as a trivial side effect of opening. I think my children's education is critical, but I would prefer to slow down aspects of it if necessary, than have them experience their father dying, or their teacher dying etc. I would prefer suggestions to make up lost time during summer holidays etc. And yes, I know there'd be anger at that, but this is unprecedented.

I also don't have a high tolerance for cases WITHOUT death, because there is too much that's unknown about the virus. The documentary I mentioned earlier, had Xand van Tullekan getting a fairly typical case of COVID. He recovered, but weeks and weeks later he's experiencing irregular heart rhythms and has had his heart stopped and restarted twice, with no idea yet if this is something he has to deal with for life. Others have had strokes. Neurological issues. Etc. I have a friend who got it so mildly she wasn't sure she had it. Months later she's losing her breath tying her shoes. She struggles to get up the stairs.

So I guess if you think full time school outweighs all of this, then yes ... circles.

If schools open full time successfully - without cases going up or deaths - I'll be thrilled because it would suggest the pandemic is over and we've defeated the virus. But evidence from around the world suggests that won't happen and it's a gamble, with peoples lives and health.

Some kids are likely to get about that time in school this year with their own quarantine, staff quarantine and local lockdowns. It’ll also all be completely unplanned so online provision will not be as good
From looking at what's happened elsewhere, it seems likely that's what will happen here and unfortunately there hasn't been enough focus on putting infrastructure and processes in place to ensure there is parity of online provision.

Ds is going into p1, still nothing from the school. Don't know what he's able to take, start times or whether it's half days to start with as in previous years. The email we were meant to get before the holidays never materialised. He's got a lot of questions we can't answer and is getting distressed because of it. He's very like me at that age and needs concrete plans in advance.

I realise it's difficult circumstances but I'm finding the lack of communication unimpressive. The p1 Facebook group has a distinctly pissed off vibe.

We're in Aberdeenshire and I've got loads of arts and crafts materials and books hidden away just in case. I really don't expect it to remain full time.

@SockYarn

It's not denial. It's more an acceptance that this virus might be around for a while and we can just add it to the long list of other risks which we live with every day. It's also a recognition that we simply can't all stay in our houses until a vaccine comes along.

That doesn't mean thinking it's all fake news or not doing things like washing your hands. That's all important stuff - but we all as a planet need to get on with things eventually and kids back to school is a key part of that.

What does that mean in real terms though? When figuring in a new risk to our lives, are you saying that entails accepting a lot of people will die and many more will have serious long term health conditions?

Bearing mind that far more people have died now than were killed during the blitz. And we have no idea of the strain on health resources yet from those that will need rehabilitation etc.

Everyone's going to die some time @chocciechocface. Ensuring nobody gets sick, ever, is impossible. Minimise risk by washing hands, socially distancing. But the economy is already on its knees, we just can't carry on like this.

I agree with everything @chocciechocface said. My dad was fairly poorly with it but has recovered well. mum either didnt have it or was asymptomatic but struggles for breath doing simple tasks. It's a gamble sending kids into schools where they wont SD, regardless of all the protocols on place. My son has got a lot of cool masks but I know he will bend to peer pressure, so only hoping that pressure is that its cool to wear masks, not the other way.

We're not minimising risks in schools though. That's the point.

And honestly, I can't engage with the, "everyone's got to die sometime" mentality. I read that phrase out in disbelief to DH and he said "clearly she doesn't give a shit".

But I will add, that's at least honest. It encapsulates an callousness among some that I've always suspected existed, but people rarely admit.

But life has a 100% mortality rate. That's fact. We are all going to die. It's not uncaring to point that out. Just as it's not uncaring to point out that despite everyone's best efforts, people are continuing to die from lots of other things too.

The whole point of lockdown was not to stop people dying. It was to flatten the curve. We have done that successfully. Cases in Scotland are very, very low. There is no reason why we cannot start to resume our everyday business. Track and trace will tell you if you need to isolate.

What's the alternative - another year of the shit-show which was "blended learning"? We all stay at home while the economy flatlines and there's no money to pay for anything?

Our Edinburgh school has staggered start, lunch and end and social distancing.

Our vulnerable DS, 4th year, is noted, DHT will give me a ring next week to discuss.

I cannot see that if we can't get adult footballers in Aberdeen to follow the rules that we have a hope in hell of getting daft, horny teenagers to comply with rules in school.

I have no confidence at all that the schools will stay open through the winter. And, after this year's exam fiasco the SQA is not going to tolerate exams being sat without the kids having had time to finish the curriculum, so, I doubt that DS will be doing is Nat 5s next year.

I know this is self indulgent, but, I just want to be able to keep him home until there is a reliable vaccine. I can't comprehend what would happen if he got covid. It's just too awful.

I don’t think it’s self indulgent for anyone to want what’s best for their child.

But life has a 100% mortality rate. That's fact. We are all going to die. It's not uncaring to point that out. Just as it's not uncaring to point out that despite everyone's best efforts, people are continuing to die from lots of other things too.

But why would you point that out? Why is this relevant?

And incidentally, I used the word callous, not uncaring?

In the context of COVID, only a callous person would respond to the prospect of someone dying thirty years prematurely as 'you were going to die anyway'. Only a callous person would think the elderly 'were going to die anyway'. The BAME community, 'well, they were going to die anyway'. Anyone with an underlying health condition, 'they were going to die anyway'. etc.

It's pretty despicable.

Like I said, I had a deep suspicion that 'herd immunity' advocates ultimately held these kind of views. In the context of a killer virus, that's not 'herd immunity', it's eugenics.

only hoping that pressure is that its cool to wear masks, not the other way.

So many of the local teenagers here seem to be wearing masks all the time!

The in lewk seems to be massive black hoody, black mask, shorts (arse length for girls, knee length for boys), sliders and socks.

In utter shock that someone's written 'everyone needs to die sometime' during a discussion on pupils and staff returning to school.

It's not so much callousness as quality Vs quantity of life, so long as the choice is made reasonably.

There are plenty of viruses that can kill, cause sepsis or long term health effects, some of which are endemic (flu, chicken pox, measles, mumps, rubella, polio, meningitis)

Vaccines are possible for all of these but not fully taken up.

We also have things around like MRSA, C diff etc, all of these are very difficult to treat. Could be caught in hospital, some people are long term carriers without signs.

We travel abroad on holiday to places where there are all kind of nasty bugs (Malaria, Dengue, Yellow Fever). People travelled throughout SARS-1 and MERS.

Realistically something like Covid -19 was a natural consequence of globalisation, and the initial spread was probably due to the expectation that you work through any illness that doesn't put you in hospital (or at least unable to get out of bed - hence the many threads saying if you can Mumsnet you should be at work) plus schools making threats about fines if children were ill too often! If we can see sensible changes to absence policies that should help a lot!

Yeah whatever. Despicable.

You were the one, @chocciechocface who said "a teacher or two or three dying, and maybe a few children orphaned". But that's not callous or uncaring? No, just hyperbole and exaggeration.

If you want to play that game - you started it. But I'm out now, the klaxon has gone off and the raving loony nationalists have arrived. Any chance of sensible debate out the window as they rush to defend the Glorious Leader.

How is it hyperbole? More than one child at my school has already lost a parent to COVID. And that's with the lockdown in full force.

“Everyone’s got to die”
“You started it”
“I’m out now, the loons are here”

You sound deeply unpleasant

Vivarium I was wondering what you mean regarding your son's school having SD? There won't be SD between students in a class, though there will be an attempt to keep different year groups apart from each other through staggering breaks etc. Rooms will be cleaned and ventilated. Hand gel everywhere I should imagine.

Any chance of sensible debate out the window as they rush to defend the Glorious Leader
Well, that's an odd leap since WM and Holyrood are both re-opening schools so actually Sock you're the one on the side of the Leaders on this thread.

That nationalism / leader bit was a totally bizarre comment to make.

I think someone's been on the wacky backy. 🤔

@chocciechocface

But life has a 100% mortality rate. That's fact. We are all going to die. It's not uncaring to point that out. Just as it's not uncaring to point out that despite everyone's best efforts, people are continuing to die from lots of other things too.

But why would you point that out? Why is this relevant?

And incidentally, I used the word callous, not uncaring?

In the context of COVID, only a callous person would respond to the prospect of someone dying thirty years prematurely as 'you were going to die anyway'. Only a callous person would think the elderly 'were going to die anyway'. The BAME community, 'well, they were going to die anyway'. Anyone with an underlying health condition, 'they were going to die anyway'. etc.

It's pretty despicable.

Like I said, I had a deep suspicion that 'herd immunity' advocates ultimately held these kind of views. In the context of a killer virus, that's not 'herd immunity', it's eugenics.

Excellent, excellent post.