time to ditch denominational / non-denom schools?

[OtraCosaMariposa]

Massive stooshie rumbling in my area at the moment around placing requests and schools. We're in East Dunbartonshire and the pace of house building means that placing requests are regularly turned down, and the Council are trying to come up with a strategy for what they'll do in a scenario that all catchment children can't be accommodated.

The main issue appears to be with the local Catholic primary. It's next door to the non-denominational secondary. Most parents choose to opt out of Catholic schooling for secondary as the "catchment" Catholic school is miles away.

If the Council plans go through, children in Catholic primaries, even if the live in catchment for the non-denom secondary, will be bottom of the pecking list to be accommodated. Argument being that they have another catchment place, albeit miles away.

Lots of Catholic parents are up in arms and I can understand their upset. They have children in the non-denom secondary already, facing the prospect of having their subsequent children at different schools miles away. I would be upset too and very worried. But on the flip side, they have opted out of the non-denominational system by choosing to send their child to a Catholic secondary and why should they 7 years later be able to opt back in ahead of others?

Personally, I'd scrap all denomination schools. In 2019 it's a piece of nonsense that we're educating children separately. All schools should be non-denominational. If you want religion, do it on your own time.

Already happening in my area - Strathaven. Catholic secondary takes ages to get to (plus isnt so good as non denom). Most make placing requests for secondary and switch to non denom.If you have a sibling already at the school then you will be in the 3rd group to be admitted but without a sibling you will be in the 5th group. This used to be fine but not sure whether thats true with all the new housing.

Agree I would make all schools non-denom saving on the transport costs.

Definitely. It's out of step with current society. I think only standard comprehensive education of the highest standard possible should be provided by councils. Faith should be a matter for parents and their chosen place of worship.

I totally agree that all schools should be non denominational.

I was told when I raised this issue as a school girl myself that it was the Catholic Church who wanted their own schools so they could teach Catholicism in a way they felt they needed and they paid for the schools themselves.
I don’t know how much of that is true nowadays but I’m a firm believer that faith is something family should be involved in more than a school which I feel should teach all religions (and no religion) about all religions (And no religion).

It's crazy that Councils are bussing children around to denominational schools. Buses drop children off at the local Catholic primary every morning, most of whom are well within a 3 mile distance of school.

Then if the children transfer to the catchment secondary, that's more buses as it's 8 miles by road. Must cost a bloody fortune. And it's no wonder that parents want a school within walking distance than one which is 8 miles away.

The whole system is so divisive. The fact that other councils are doing thing means that it will probably go through here too which means we'll be paying council tax to bus the little boy next door all that way to a Catholic secondary when there's a suitable school 10 minutes' walk up the road.

No Council is ever going to suggest scrapping non-denom schooling though. Political suicide.

Totally agree; think of the millions that could be saved - but more importantly, I feel it increases divisions & has no place in modern society.

...and better for the environment?

When sectarianism is gone we will talk. Or you are sacrificing the first generation and possibly more of RC kids (or are we still pretending that RC side are “just as bad”...?) to bullying and tormenting at school as well as at home and en route to school. I am eternally grateful that I went to RC school; at least I had peace in class from the chanting, spitting, verbal insults etc. Probably would have been physical violence if I’d been a boy.

I’m willing to bet none of you has direct experience of sectarianism. You probably live in naice middle class areas where “this never happens”.

If there are no denominational schools then how does anyone know whether you are catholic or not unless you tell them?

I agree sectarianism has to go but it's a bit chicken and egg isn't it? If we didn't separate people from toddlers then maybe people wouldn't give so much of a shit. lets get rid of the marches while we are it.

I'm not going to apologise for living in a "nice middle class area".

But I still think separating children out and teaching them separately is a bad idea which just reinforces the idea that if you're Catholic (or Jewish, or Muslim) that you are different. Which you're not, you're just the same as the rest of us.

Surely the fact that there are "nice middle class areas" where this isn't an issue, shows that part of it isn't about religion per se, it's about having standards for behaviour and appropriate guidance and education? Possibly stopping segregation and investing the bus money into supporting appropriate parenting and community might be a start.

I think Catholic schools are entirely separate from the issue of sectarianism. There are Catholic schools all over the world without this problem.

I cannot believe the amount of people who supposedly oppose the Orange Walk and cretins spitting on priests, yet their first response is 'close the Catholic schools'. It's not chicken and egg, it's two completely separate issues. Banning the marches should be the answer.

Catholic schools aren't closed off to the world. Children of all faiths and none are accepted.

From my extremely scientific and wholly reliable FB snooping, the people who are most vocal about abolishing Catholic schools send their children (on council-sponsored buses too) to Gaelic schools. Why are they allowed and Catholic schools aren't?

It's not about "closing catholic schools". It's about the endorsement of religious worship in an educational environment by tax payers. I think that religious worship should be removed from all schools and therefore it makes the idea of a religious segregation by school redundant.

I'd also be happy to do away with providing transport for Gaelic schools at the same time.

It clearly is about closing Catholic schools if you believe that they are a fundamental part of the sectarianism problem in Scotland ('chicken and egg' was your description). If that were the case, we'd see sectarianism in every part of the world where there is Catholic education.

I can completely understand that some people believe that religion should be taught at home. That's a separate argument.

It's bit about closing schools. It's about removing religion from school. If you want your kids to learn your brand of religion, whether you're Baptist, Jewish, Muslim or Catholic, then it's outside school.

No one is asking you to apologise for living in a naice area. But it means you probably have no idea how bad it is for some people.

As for the pp who wondered how people would know if you were RC if it weren’t for the school. Hollow laugh... you really have NO IDEA how sectarianism works, do you?

Still no one has considered the impact on the children who would be directly affected. Just because you think your principles are more important than their right to a safe, peaceful educational environment.

It's not a separate argument. Which countries provide government funded education in Catholicism as a minority and non denominational for all other children?

As for the pp who wondered how people would know if you were RC if it weren’t for the school. Hollow laugh... you really have NO IDEA how sectarianism works, do you?

Well, you explain it then? Stick 25 5 year olds in a class of a school not called after a saint, remove religious worship in school then how do you know which ones catholic?

Still no one has considered the impact on the children who would be directly affected. Just because you think your principles are more important than their right to a safe, peaceful educational environment.

All pupils should have a safe and peaceful educational environment. Unfortunately bullying happens in every school. Are you telling me that there is no bullying in catholic schools? if so, then whatever they are doing should be rolled out across the country.

Which countries provide government funded education in Catholicism as a minority and non denominational for all other children?

New Zealand, Australia, Canada and England for starters. If they can do it, why not Scotland?

New Zealand, Australia, Canada and England for starters. If they can do it, why not Scotland?

I've not looked into the system in New Zealand, Australia and Canada but it might be interesting to see if it actually does work/why does it work. English faith schools have a background in the cost being offset by the faith involved.

I think the question in a lot of things is why so many other countries can seemingly do a lot of things but Scotland doesn't seem to manage to.

The stupidity of denominational/non-denominational schools shows up in the new school in Dumfries and the planned on in Prestwick. Both have merged a catholic primary and a non-dom primary onto the same site. They will be separate schools with there own teachers but with joint janitorial staff.

Yep it's bizzare cd, there are a few similar examples dotted about.

Funnily, there are loads and loads of countries (and areas in Scotland) that seem to manage to not have catholic schools who don't have the issues with sectarianism either. Wonder how that happens?

Erm, your name and appearance ? The fact that you go to church on Sunday? That you have a crucifix in your house? That you use certain words? That your parents do certain jobs? The football team you support?

Are you being obtuse or do you just not know much about the West of Scotland?