time to ditch denominational / non-denom schools?

[OtraCosaMariposa]

Massive stooshie rumbling in my area at the moment around placing requests and schools. We're in East Dunbartonshire and the pace of house building means that placing requests are regularly turned down, and the Council are trying to come up with a strategy for what they'll do in a scenario that all catchment children can't be accommodated.

The main issue appears to be with the local Catholic primary. It's next door to the non-denominational secondary. Most parents choose to opt out of Catholic schooling for secondary as the "catchment" Catholic school is miles away.

If the Council plans go through, children in Catholic primaries, even if the live in catchment for the non-denom secondary, will be bottom of the pecking list to be accommodated. Argument being that they have another catchment place, albeit miles away.

Lots of Catholic parents are up in arms and I can understand their upset. They have children in the non-denom secondary already, facing the prospect of having their subsequent children at different schools miles away. I would be upset too and very worried. But on the flip side, they have opted out of the non-denominational system by choosing to send their child to a Catholic secondary and why should they 7 years later be able to opt back in ahead of others?

Personally, I'd scrap all denomination schools. In 2019 it's a piece of nonsense that we're educating children separately. All schools should be non-denominational. If you want religion, do it on your own time.

How is getting rid of the schools going to stop the anti RC bigots being bigots though? Please explain.

Sectarianism in Scotland is largely due to historic issues with Irish immigration. It isn’t actually the religion that’s the issue.

It’s shameful that in this day and age we still have religious divides in Scottish education. No state funded school should be permitted to push religion.

So what does a catholic look like? I'm fascinated.

So, no children in a catholic school are bullied? They only get bother from non-catholics?

Come on, Fascinated. We're not in Victorian times. Unless you are a priest/nun/the Pope nobody can tell just by looking at you that you're Catholic. Children at school do not have x-ray eyes to look into your house and see a crucifix. Most of the wee boys at DS's school support Celtic not because they're RC but because they are glory hunters, and Celtic are the only Scottish team who actually win things. And parents doing certain jobs? Again, unless your parents are a nun and a priest (unlikely), then this too is nonsense. Same with the words, unless children are reciting prayers in the playground.

Imagine if you came on saying that Muslims or Jews looked a certain way, had specific jobs, spoke in a certain way. You'd get ripped to shreds for being intolerant.

You are perpetuating the myth that Catholics are different from the rest of us. Which they are not. Scotland is never going to get past this nonsense with segregated education.

I look like a Catholic I also grew up with a very Catholic name think along the lines of Bernadette McGuire. I have also endured awful sectarian insults which didn't take place in school or in anything related to education.

I witnessed some of the worst sectarian songs I have heard in years when on a school excursion (non denominational) from a school in a part of Scotland that has no Catholic schools. It went unchallenged by their teachers even though it left Catholic pupils from my (also non denominational) school in tears. When I spoke to the teachers after challenging their pupils about their chants - they said they didn't know what the songs were about they thought they were just football songs and were all rugby fans.

It's as previous posters have said if you haven't been a victim of sectarian abuse you don't appreciate how much it still pervades our society .

It's nothing to do with schools Scotland is the only country where RC education is viewed as a cause of sectarianism.If denominational schools protect children from abuse and allow them to learn then , for me, they are not a problem.

How do you "look like a catholic"???

Isn’t niggling over how you look like a Catholic missing the point?

Essentially your argument here boils down to scrapping denom schools in areas with issues with sectarianism will be fine as long as nobody finds out the Catholic children are Catholic. At best it’s unrealistic.

Maybe I have been naive/living in a bubble, but surely the solution isn't segregation, it's about removing the sense of "othering" that the separation causes and actually dealing appropriately with the abuse?

If we were talking about an asian child or a muslim child, we wouldn't be suggesting that we need separate schools in order to keep them from abuse and safe. I'm really sad that people here and their DC are dealing with this shit.

I still don't honestly know that I could pick a catholic out in a line up. We have an Irish surname and DC have scots/irish first names, I think DHs family were originally from Glasgow (I suppose Ireland originally) and catholic but a generation or two ago. He was brought up in a countryside village where you went to the village school and the village church (which wasn't catholic). I guess DC might look catholic? I don't know. We attended DHs "aunts" catholic funeral, I knew her well, been in her house many times, she was properly into the church (chapel?) did the flowers etc. I don't recall her or anyone else at the funeral service looking any different to me.

I suppose I am sheltered as what religion someone is really isn't anything I consider. I tend to divide people into good guys or arseholes and it's generally difficult for people to shift from one group to the other...

Anyway, despite everything, I still don't think we should have segregated schools, I think we should deal properly with the underlying issue - answers on a postcard for the answer to that problem.

I grew up in the west. If you were Catholic you went to the Catholic school. If you were anything else you went to the ordinary school (the terminology of the time, not words of my choosing).

Whatever the reason for the separate schools it created a difference, it made Catholic kids different. We couldn't understand why they had to have their own school, the general feeling was that they thought they were better than everyone else. And that carried on in high school and among adults in the village.

Unfortunately there was absolutely no mixing at all, either during the school day or out of school. Everyone played together unless you were Catholic then you only played with the Catholic kids. Maybe that was just the nature of the people in that area at that time that they chose to be (or felt the need to be) so insular, I don't know.

For a small west coast town we actually had a fairly diverse population at that time so there were kids from all corners of the world, there were sikhs, muslims, christians, all varieties of christian, at the non-denom school, apart from Catholic.

It leaves you with this slightly odd and completely unreasonable feeling even as an adult that Catholic people are somehow different. I know how totally pathetic that sounds but that's years of childhood conditioning for you. I think separate schooling needs to stop.

I now live in Edinburgh and it's much less of an issue here because you might not go to the same school as the kid next door for a host of other reasons- they might go to a fee paying school or the school up the road because they have moved house or the catholic school or no school at all. Kids from different schools will share clubs or football teams or Brownies or whatever.

But in my smaller place growing up the difference was stark and it was horrible. And unnecessary.

I am less bothered about the cost of separate schooling tbh because every school in our area is full, whether it is Catholic or not. I am more upset by the cost of bussing kids across the city or from outside the city to the Gaelic school when there is no history of gaelic being used in the area or by the families the kids come from. But that's a whole different post.

Of course you can tell when someone is catholic by their name.

Martin, Michael, Christopher, Mary, Bernadette, Siobhan, Sinead, Erin, Stephen.

Literally thousands of names will identify a catholic. Surnames too.

Anyway, problems lie with the marches. Not the schools. Hatred is not taught at catholic schools.

Hatred is not taught at catholic schools

It is not taught in non-denominational school either.

It comes about because of feelings of difference and separateness which leads to comparison, competitiveness, resentment, hostility.

And history obviously. West coast sectarianism is a difficult thing to explain if you haven't lived it. It's embarrassing for all of us.

We are all the same regardless of which door we go through on a Sunday morning.

I agree marching should go. I think the Orange Order should probably go. Flute bands should go. But I can't see that happening in my lifetime.

Martin, Michael, Christopher, Mary, Bernadette, Siobhan, Sinead, Erin, Stephen.

Well, apart from Sinead, I know people with all those names in my family or close friends, none of them are catholic (the family ones are on my side so not even historically catholic). The Bernadette I know is the only one who is actively religious - and she's a baptist.

I have an Irish surname, no idea if it's a "catholic name" or not.

I've learnt a lot about what is like to grow up as a Catholic in the West of Scotland from dh who went to St Monica's Primary (I think) and then St Mungo's Academy and was brought up in a scheme out near Darnley before moving up to a tenement in Kinning Park (a lot less privileged than my naice middle class upbringing in Bearsden/Milngavie going to the local non-denom schools).

He agrees that the separate education system helps perpetuate the sectarianism (although he acknowledges that it is more complex than that). The very fact that most Catholic schools can be identified by their name in an region where sectarianism still exists can itself create discrimination - and tells me how if an interviewer can't identify the denomination of the school from the secondary, they'll then ask what primary the candidate went to It doesn't happen as often now - but it's still there under the surface

Ironically, one of the things that is contributing to reducing the prejudice against the Catholic schools quite apart from the fact that it is illegal is the fact that they now have a high proportion of Sikhs and Muslims attending (My local RC Primary is something like 80% Sikh/Muslim/other which makes a mockery of the "separate" RC denominational set-up )

That's the case in our area too. It definitely seems to be more of a religious v non-religious choice. I'm more ok with that actually than with it being only for kids of one denomination.

As for the names, in my home area this is definitely true. Much less so in the city where I am now.

I grew up in ED and there were the same issues when I went to school over 30 years ago. I’m not sure if it’s improved but the RC catchment school was dire and not even within the local authoritiy area

Although tbh I don’t really have an issue with what the council are doing. As far as I know ERen are considering if not already doing it the other way, ie requiring kids to not only attend the feeder primaries but be Catholic to be allowed to attend.

I have no real strong feelings one way or the other on denominational v non denom schools as long as they are open to all children. I considered sending my youngest son to a RC primary as it was smaller and he was struggling with class sizes In his catchment school but I found another non denom school to take him. Ultimately we all pay tax and shouldn’t be excluded

*to attend St Ninians I meant to say

Yes, the marches should be stopped. They are an abhorrence. If not, hope they will die a death in future generations as young people reject bigotry.

There's other factors too eg - Rangers v Celtic.

But separate schooling remains a big part of the problem. Interestingly, one of the new primaries in East Ren is multi-faith, with children educated in the same building, but with separate faith assemblies - that's an improvement.

I wonder what will happen in years to come, with our society becoming increasingly secular? Surely faith schools will become less popular?

Interestingly, one of the new primaries in East Ren is multi-faith, with children educated in the same building, but with separate faith assemblies - that's an improvement.

Yeah there is a new primary with a shared campus here. But then separated at high school

But separate schooling remains a big part of the problem. Interestingly, one of the new primaries in East Ren is multi-faith, with children educated in the same building, but with separate faith assemblies - that's an improvement.

It is an improvement but wouldn't it be even easier not to have faith assemblies at all? Then assemblies could focus on kindness, society, celebrating differences and inclusivity etc etc. I'm sure a lot of the faith assemblies cover those sort of things too, but it would be good for DC to see and appreciate that that you don't need to have a faith to be a decent human being and do the right things in life.

They can go to worship with their families on whichever day of the week is most applicable.

I totally agree with you @WaxOnFeckOff - I'd far rather my DC weren't attending church during school! And much rather religion was kept out of schools.

I don't think things will change in this generation; I hope it will for next.

You can opt them out Prosecco. In Scotland you also have the option of only opting out of religious observance and not religious education rather than opting out of everything. My DS2 in particular, while remaining polite s(o he says) resented being told to pray.

Maybe if enough people took a stand/opted out it would disappear naturally.

Thanks - my DC doesn't have strong feelings yet (he thinks church is boring) - but he wouldn't want to be singled out by doing so. He's only at primary so that may change.

I have to admit that I continue to be shocked at the concept of differing schools based on religion and really do think it needs to be stopped.

Where I grew up in Scotland there was one school and I really had no idea whether someone was as catholic or not. We had boys who supported both rangers and Celtic and of course there was banter between them but it didn’t define them and nor stop them hanging out together.

As for looking catholic, having a catholic name etc. maybe it’d because I grew up where religion wasn’t an issue but I’ve only recently discovered that two friends who I’ve known for 5 years are catholic. I’ve been to both of their houses and now wondering where they’re hiding the crucifixes!

Maybe we need to move with the times and let kids be kids, not defined by religion and leave our failing education system to focus on education.