time to ditch denominational / non-denom schools?

[OtraCosaMariposa]

Massive stooshie rumbling in my area at the moment around placing requests and schools. We're in East Dunbartonshire and the pace of house building means that placing requests are regularly turned down, and the Council are trying to come up with a strategy for what they'll do in a scenario that all catchment children can't be accommodated.

The main issue appears to be with the local Catholic primary. It's next door to the non-denominational secondary. Most parents choose to opt out of Catholic schooling for secondary as the "catchment" Catholic school is miles away.

If the Council plans go through, children in Catholic primaries, even if the live in catchment for the non-denom secondary, will be bottom of the pecking list to be accommodated. Argument being that they have another catchment place, albeit miles away.

Lots of Catholic parents are up in arms and I can understand their upset. They have children in the non-denom secondary already, facing the prospect of having their subsequent children at different schools miles away. I would be upset too and very worried. But on the flip side, they have opted out of the non-denominational system by choosing to send their child to a Catholic secondary and why should they 7 years later be able to opt back in ahead of others?

Personally, I'd scrap all denomination schools. In 2019 it's a piece of nonsense that we're educating children separately. All schools should be non-denominational. If you want religion, do it on your own time.

Thanks for dismissing my experience in such a condescending manner. Just because you personally can’t understand how this can happen, i must be making it up? Nice bit of empathy , there.

Dealing with underlying problem would of course be much better. But anti Catholic abuse seems to be the only kind of hate in Scotland that is never acknowledged to be an issue. Racism, homophobia are challenged but never sectarianism...that’s brushed under the carpet.

Just because you haven’t seen something happen, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It’s unlikely the bigots hang out on Mumsnet!

Although it is interesting to note that I was asked which primary school I went to on interview for a leading Glasgow law firm. So it seems there are at least a few naice, middle class bigots!

Reading these responses is actually really quite hurtful. Nobody gets it, do they? You just don’t.

@fascinated - I'm sorry you have had that experience.

There are absolutely no excuses for bigotry.

I hope sectarianism will be a thing of the past too.

I grew up in Glasgow in the 70's & am well aware of sectarianism.

I think things are better now - and will continue to get better as we become less secular, and football clubs challenge it.

I hope education follows suit & we aren't "different" in the future, all going to the same non-religious schools.

As a teen had to listen to men graphically describing how "shagging Catholic burds is dirtier ". Had to face being told "not being interviewed by her kind" in my forward facing public service role when I had my maiden name. Never getting an interview for local authority posts with my maiden name but plenty with my very generic married name. Living in a country which has more Orange Walks per year than Ulster. And I know there are bigots on both sides these are just a fraction of my experiences in an ordinary central Scotland town not some neglected former mining village.

If grown men behave appalling in the run up to and wake of old firm games , how do we expect children and adolescents to be? Sectarianism thrives in nondenominational schools too - I know a pupil who was excluded for graffitiing (pro IRA) slogans in school. I have sent jiotters home to be covered as I don't want look at or have other pupils in the class have to look at some of the slogans- from both sides.

Some of the responses on this thread are as Stated upthread hurtful. There is a "I haven't experienced this so it's not a problem attitude. I don't generally get drawn into debates on the issue as I understand and respect that other people have other views. I am not right they are not wrong and vice versa that's having and accepting that people are entitled to have different views.

I love Scotland but there is blight that we are not rid of. When parades are banned, when the old firm stop paying lip service to dealing with the hate crimes they give a venue to. When it's not considered ok to comment on your assumed religion due to the size of your family.

Maybe we should focus on the issue of bigotry rather than an aside?

Sounds like Lidlfix has had something closer to my experience.

It’s a major issue in Scotland, and banning RC schools won’t solve it. Fair from it - the types who tormented me would see that as a resounding victory over the “Papes” who shouldn’t be here in the first place. Kids WILL suffer. That we have more Orange Walks than Ulster says it all, doesn’t it? Something is deeply rotten here and we shouldn’t be asking our kids to be the guinea pigs trying to root it out.

I admit that I have only recently become aware of the level of aggression on the “RC” side, mind you.... the pro Republican marches, etc. I hadn’t realised that was going on. Seems we are impacted by the situation in NI, which saddens me. I don’t condone any of it.

But separate schooling remains a big part of the problem. Interestingly, one of the new primaries in East Ren is multi-faith, with children educated in the same building, but with separate faith assemblies - that's an improvement.

It's not really an improvement as both the schools are faith schools - in this case Jewish and Catholic. What would be refreshing would be a shared campus of a faith school and a non-denom.

As we become a much more diverse country it's inevitable that faith schools will go at some point as it isn't sustainable.

What would be refreshing would be a shared campus of a faith school and a non-denom.

We have this in my council area at primary. However it exacerbates the catchment problem in the Op because Catholic school catchments are larger geographically and the feeder secondary schools are over a mile apart. We have the opposite problem of the Catholic secondary being closer to the primaries and also more highly regarded than the non-denominational. This means that a lot of DC at the non-den primary make placing requests to the Catholic secondary.

The positive of Catholic schools is that they tend to have better social mobility because they have much larger more diverse catchment areas.
The flipside to catchment only one size fits all is more homogeneous schooling by house price and sharp elbows.

Turns out I am on the fence with this.

I had my eyes opened when my DD started school and we sent her to the closest school that just happened to be a denominational primary. It also happens to be a fantastic school and she is thriving there. Within her class, there are children who are baptised RC, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Protestant and of no faith. Ironically a much more diverse school than the local non-denominational school.

Some of the comments though - from grown adults.

“Why are you sending her to that effing pape school”

“Over my dead body would I send my kid to that school”

“Are you not worried she’ll turn into one of them”

And worse. I’m glad that she’s going to a school where she’s leaning about and mixing with children from many faiths and cultures. I did not realise how widespread anti catholic sentiment is though. It’s horrible and sadly seems to be ingrained in parts of Scotland.

So now I see that actually it’s one place where parents know their children won’t be bullied because of their faith.

There are no catholic schools here in Shetland. It’s ridiculous that we have separate schools paid for by the taxpayer in some parts of this country.

There should be no place for religion in state funded schools, and yes that includes assemblies led by ministers in supposed non-denominational schools. Fair enough teaching kids about different beliefs in religious education but nothing else.

I completely understand where people are coming from in wanting to protect their DC, like any parent, I'd absolutely want to do the same. But, bullying about religion is still bullying. That's the problem that needs dealt with and continuing to keep DC separate really doesn't help.

My DS was badly bullied all the way through primary school and it's affected him since and we are still trying to get him help as an adult. It was nothing to do with religion though. Horrible nasty people exist, parents who teach their DC bigotry and hatred exist, stupid people exist. I really don't know what the solution is but continuing to foster the feeling that catholics are somehow different to everyone else needs to stop. Guaranteed if we suggested that all homosexual children or black children or children with red hair or children with glasses had to go into a different school for their own safety, people would think it was bizarre - and they'd be right.

We need to protect all DC in school.

We are always spun the lines about Glaswegians being the friendliest, most welcoming tolerant people in Scotland and whilst the issue isn't isolated to Glasgow, it's definitely much more a west coast issue, so clearly all that friendliness and tolerance is put to the side when it comes to religion?

Erm, your name and appearance ? The fact that you go to church on Sunday? That you have a crucifix in your house? That you use certain words? That your parents do certain jobs? The football team you support?

What the hell!

None of that makes any sense.

Bonkers!

When young I went to a non-denom school which was situated on a huge field shared by a Catholic school and a Protestant school. These were secondary schools and the violence was unbelievable, the schools had staggered lunchtimes (ours was last, 1.40 to 2.40- far too late), breaks, starts and ends but it made no difference. And the worst of the bullying and violence was from the Catholic and Protestant schools. To this day I think religion in school is just a recipe for disaster and has no place in modern society.
In saying that, I live in a city where sectarianism isn't a big problem, it's not because it's a naice place, far from it, it's an extremely deprived area, but here the kids fight scheme on scheme, it's brutal, so I guess what I'm saying is that kids in deprived areas are predisposed to fighting, whether it be about religion, which scheme you live in or what trainers you wear. What needs to happen is education. It was getting better, certainly where I am, but the last 5 years it's going downhill again and kids are gathering in gangs with weapons again like they did in the 90s,its sad.

continuing to foster the feeling that catholics are somehow different to everyone else needs to stop. Guaranteed if we suggested that all homosexual children or black children or children with red hair or children with glasses had to go into a different school for their own safety, people would think it was bizarre - and they'd be right

This. We can’t go on providing segregated education for one group at tax payers expense . It’s divisive and unhelpful.

And the Catholic church still pays for 10% of the building costs of Catholic schools.

Not in Scotland

Ah. Sorry. Yes what I said is true for England (and maybe Wales) but not Scotland.

This is in the Scotsnet topic. That's why we refer to Non-denom/Denom, which equals (in theory) "Broadly Christian in nature but no particular religion" /Catholic in Scotland, as there are no other types of school - except for, I think, 1 Jewish primary in Glasgow and possibly not sure about this one Church of Scotland school somewhere in Stirlingshire (??).

Separated schools are obscene and entrench bigoted views and mistrust between people. It panders to people’s basest instincts and has no place in modern scotland.

It always makes me laugh when the SNP talk about how much nicer, more inclusive and welcoming than the English when the sectarian stain is allowed to continue and thrive in a “separate but equal” education system.

possibly not sure about this one Church of Scotland school somewhere in Stirlingshire (??).

It's St Mary's in Dunblane and is Episcopal (so sort of CofE - ish?)

YY episcopal is Church of England in Scotland.

I knew there was one - just got the particular church wrong - but the rough location right