Argh - how to vote !

[rookiemere]

In scotsnet as this is a uniquely Scottish problem - apologies if there's a politics area somewhere that I should be in.

My postal vote has been sitting staring at me for days.

I know who I don't want to get in. As a non-scots British person with an English DH, I'll do everything I can to avoid another referendum.

Our local Labour MP actually does a lot for the local community and seems like a good egg. But the overall party is a disaster and SNP are talking about going jointly with Labour so they can push through another independence vote.

I cannot bring myself to vote Tory after what they've done - also every time they think up a remotely fair taxation idea i.e. making self employed pay same taxes as employed or making rich OAPs pay for care, even though Ruth Davidson seems very different from the conservatives in England, can't bear to watch the Westminster crowing when/if they get a huge victory.

My heart says Lib-Dems and in fact I've done some campaigning for them at local level, but pre voting questionnaires seem to suggest it's a 3 way race between Lab/Con/SNP so it would be a wasted vote.

Is anyone else really struggling to decide for this election?

That would be a turkey....a turnkey used to open doors. The SNP are all about shutting them.

The vote was equivocal as it could barely have been a closer result, was won via lies (£350 mill a day anyone?) and demonising of immigrants (Farage's posters). Plus in Scotland most voted remain.

Blocking a democratic vote re: independence is shutting a door.

We had a democratic vote. The answer was No.

There are still 1m Scots (38% of those that voted) that wanted to leave the EU. The turnout was 67.2% and parts of Scotland were close to the UK result -

Moray where Remain won by just 122 votes. Leave got 49.9% of the votes in Moray, the closest of any of Scotland's 32 local authority areas.
Dumfries and Galloway was 53.1% for Remain.
Aberdeenshire, Western Isles and Angus all had a 55% to 45% split in favour of Remain.

Scotland isn't one, EU loving entity. A lot of Scots didn't vote, a significant amount voted leave, and there are some areas where the Scottish EU vote and the UK vote are in sync.

The SNP have made very clear in their manifesto that they will take every vote for them as a green light for Indyref2. For me, avoiding another indyref trumps any concerns about Conservative cuts etc. Even though another independence referendum doesn't guarantee a Yes/Leave vote, it does guarantee more division and less focus on the shambolic state of Scotland's public services. And it wouldn't end with a No/Remain vote either: Nicola Sturgeon made very clear on her Question Time appearance that she will keep pushing for this, spending public money and creating division, until she gets the answer she is looking for. She was told outright by an audience member that the focus on Indyref was losing the SNP votes - she doesn't care, it's the only thing she's ever believed in.

The Conservatives have their faults, but they are doing a great job of consistently standing up for the Union, unlike Labour who were late to the party and are all over the place on the issue. The Tories have said they will block it until after Brexit is settled and devolved powers distributed, AND until there is clear public support for one (Nicola should take note). If they are in government at Westminster they have the power to do this, and if the vote is delayed until after 2021, and the SNP lose a pro-indy majority at the Scottish parliament, we may be able to prevent it altogether.

yes, the current labour team's support for the union has been as luke-warm as their support for remain in Brexit - and look what happened there.

Hamlets sister - thank you for writing such a clear and precise summary of all the reasons not to vote SNP. I wish I was brave enough to say all these things in public.

Yup, agonising here. Last GE we actually had a recount as it was so close between Conservatives and SNP - the rest of the parties don't get a look in.

I want the SNP out and there is only one way to achieve it. But I can't...................

Oh Hamlets, deary me. What can I say, you are so so angry with the wrong people.

NS did travel, yes, she works for Scotland and was working very hard to raise Scotland's profile in the EU and at home (because if Westminster has anything to do with it, Scotland should be asset stripped and used and bartered away but not heard). It has been working, too - Scotland's profile has been raised. Thanks to the SNP, we are now starting to be heard and respected.

I can't stop laughing whenever anyone says SNP MSPs are dodgy...nobody is perfect, of course. Not even SNP MSPs! But if being an ex-banker and now being a 'wee crofter' is dodgy (! LOL) -
I'm afraid I'm a bit stumped as to what to call the lovely people who support the Tory party? All Ruth's pals? With the lovely social media accounts etc. I'm sure they're fine upstanding pillars of the community, all. You're talking about indy supporters having vile online rhetoric?!

What is your problem with baby boxes? One minute the SNP are dodgy crooks and the next they're too soft on babies? Hell, it's better than spending money on private companies whose raison d'etre is to find ways to cut disabled peoples' benefits.

You're talking about 5 families being allocated to your council area. The SNP do not have control of immigration. They want control. Families are being deported from Scotland, families who work and employ people here. Against the wishes of the Scottish people and their parliament.

Once in a generation wasn't a promise. Show me where it was promised. It never was. That is so old and desperate. There was an election after the indyref, and the SNP made it perfectly clear that if Brexit was voted for, and Scotland voted against it, then that was us being taken out of the EU against our will and we should have the right to vote in another indyref. Material change of circumstances. It's not the same as it was. And the SNP won with a landslide. You can chunter away all you like saying there's no appetite for a referendum, it was once in a generation, nobody wants it, etc etc but those are the facts. If you are so sure that nobody wants it then everyone can vote no.

TM is now talking about tearing up our human rights. What she should be talking about is resourcing. We could restore police numbers and resourcing or we could tear up human rights. Why am I not surprised at the direction May's taking.

The SNP are internationalist and outward looking. They stand for equality and a fairer Scotland. I want my daughter to live in an independent Scotland, not a Tory Orwellian nightmare.

People saying free university tuition doesn't open it up to more people - the only reason I was able to go to Uni myself is because I didn't have to pay. I don't accept that it doesn't open it up to more of the less well off.

The SNP have work to do on education, and they aren't denying it. They will do what is needed. They are doing all they can to protect the poor from the Conservative and Unionist policies which are literally causing people to commit suicide. Ruth has not spoken at all about her policies for Scotland, she has nothing to offer us except extreme right wing Theresa May policies.

Kezia is so inept and so obviously telling everyone what they want to hear that nobody trusts her at all to back the head of her own party. The SNP are more likely to work with Corbyn in Westminster than Kezia is, that's shocking but true. Kezia is so blinded by her utter horror of the possibility of a democratically mandated indyref that she has actively advised people to vote Tory in Scotland where the Tories have a better chance of beating the SNP. The head of Scottish Labour telling people that "in some places the Tories are better placed to beat the SNP" and she wonders why nobody will listen or trust her or her party in Scotland ever again. All she wants is the status quo. Which is no longer the status quo because of Brexit. Vote No to secure your place in the EU, indeed!

Look. If you don't like the SNP's policies on business, health, education, Europe, then after independence we can vote for the parties whose policies we do like. And every single policy will be designed to be good for Scotland and her people. Not good for the 1% of elite Tory donors.

Totally agree HamletsSister. Underneath the SNP facade of a 'caring, outward-looking, left-wing party' is a party that will promise everything to everyone to gain support for independence while implementing right-wing policies and some of the most draconian legislation this country has seen (Named Person Scheme - that's for reminding me about that!). Any disagreement or tough questioning is met with derision, spin, and, if all else fails, smears. I'm amazed more people don't seem to notice the mismatch between their words and actions.

we've talked before about your miraculous degree Nyx, there is no evidence though that free tuition puts off children from the poorest backgrounds. They don't get to university as a general, statistically provable rule. We should also recall that free tuition isn't really free, it's a tax on everyone for graduates to receive an investment that benefits them massively that could be spend improving outcomes for all kids if the money was spent on primary and secondary education and perhaps TARGETED tuition relief for shortage degrees like nursing.

no evidence that not having free tuition I meant...I'm from a large family of low achievers, and none of them except me made it to university in my generation, one so far in the younger generation is really struggling as the jump from access course to degree has been huge.

What about your family Nyx, did anyone else make it?

My 'miraculous degree'?

My sister did. Is her degree and therefore profession 'miraculous' too? What the hell do you mean by that anyway?

That a student from a very disadvantaged background getting a degree is statistically very unlikely, in Scotland or the UK regardless of fee status.

My family is much more in line with the statistics!

We were motivated. Nothing miraculous about it. But there is no way in God's green earth we would/could have gone to Uni if we'd had to pay for it. We got into enough debt as it was without Uni fees.

I'll be glad if you don't sneeringly refer to my 'miraculous degree' any more, thanks NoLottery.

yoy read it as a sneer, Nyx, I was pointing out the extreme statistical unlikelines of what you and your sister achieved. I'd say well done and you could congratulate me in return but that'd probably be misinterpreted...

It's attitudes like that which leave me cold. Children from poor families should be encouraged into education, not told that it's miraculous when one of them does get to Uni. It shouldn't be seen as surprising. It should be celebrated. And free Uni tuition is a godsend and a blessing in Scotland in my opinion.

'we've talked before about your miraculous degree Nyx' makes it look like you disbelieve me. And you doing it more than once really makes me feel that way. The use of miraculous looks sarcastic. I do apologise if I'm taking you the wrong way.

In the school I went to, it wasn't an extreme statistical aberration. Rather a lot of us went to Uni because that was what we aimed for. And we aimed for it because we could, because it wasn't something that only the rich could do. I went to school in the Western Isles.

'Free' university education isn't a godsend and a blessing at the moment. And of course it's not free, it's funded. Many Scottish universities are on the bones of their arses because the govt 'funding' is not keeping pace with costs. And the 50% target of all school leavers going to university is dumbing down courses, ensuring that even the most basic level clerical jobs now pretty much require a degree and taking funding away from tech colleges.

Another point that was raised in the leader's Question time debate was that 'free' University tuition in Scotland has led to a rationing of places for Scottish students as the Universities have to make up their costs elsewhere (i.e. fee-paying students from rUK or elsewhere in the world). It also has done absolutely nothing to close the rich-poor divide and a poor student from Scotland is half as likely as an equivalent student from rUK to go to University. (Although it has benefited quite a few middle class students who probably would have gone anyway..) The reasons for this are likely to be complex, but I suspect that not addressing the failings before reaching University is a big factor, and I've also heard a few people say that the loans system (for living costs) is less generous in Scotland. There certainly doesn't seem to be much evidence that tuition fees in rUK, which of course are only paid back after you earn a certain threshold, are putting students from deprived backgrounds off University more than in Scotland, quite the opposite in fact.

i've explained several times what I meant Nyx - I'll say it one more time: Scotland is no better at widening access to university than the UK as a whole - fee status is NOT the main criteria in widening access to university, regardless of what we feel made a difference in our own cases. I also have a 'miraculous' degree as I pointed out.

In my case, I believe it was primary and secondary education that made the difference, not fee status and the statistics bear this out to be the most important factor although widening access is a complex issue with many factors.

I just re-read Nyx - I see you're talking about schooling being a key factor too. I heartily agree, widening access starts much earlier than fee status and that's where the money should be being spent.

Edinburgh South here too! (was that you buying all the reduced strawberries in Waitrose, hmmm?) I'm voting for melty faced muppet Ian Murray because I support labour and I'm anti Indyref 2.

The SNP don't want rid of the Tories. If they did, they'd get behind Corbyn. My fb feed is full of Corbyn loving yessers who think voting labour in Scotland is a Tory vote. It's like they actually can't read the word Labour.

struggling to choose here too. The only definite is it won't be SNP due to talk of second referendum and their truly appalling record on education, which they have had very little interrogation on and should have done!