To ask how Scottish Indyref1 NO voters are feeling about it today?

[StatisticallyChallenged]

I was just chatting with DH about the possibility of a second Indyref whilst watching the news and I wondered how those who voted no in 2014 are feeling now?

Cards on the table, for those who weren't on the Indyref threads, I was a strong no voter and campaigner last time. I work in financial services (have changed company since) and I had huge concerns about the impact on the economy of a No vote - all the issues around currency etc. I also found a lot of the campaign arguments very unconvincing and like we were being promised the moon which could never materialise.

I still feel that way about the last referendum. But I have to admit that watching the news today, seeing people proudly declaring they voted out because of immigrants...this isn't a country which currently reflects me. I still have massive concerns about the economy although it's a lot less clear cut given the likely turmoil over the next few years.

I'm well aware that an independent Scotland may have huge issues getting in to the EU btw, it's not so much about the EU membership but about feeling a bit less affinity with being 'British' today.

I'm not disputing that it happens and that there will be very diverse schools, I'm disputing that it has the catastrophic effect on education that is claimed. The non English speaking children won't have all arrived simultaneously , they'll arrive in dribs and drabs and learn the language as they go along. I don't pretend that immigration has no impact but I feel that the impact on education is, like many of the apparent impacts, exaggerated. There's more than one reason for the quality of education declining - looking at you Gove, in England- but migrants are a very convenient scape goat.

"4/5 children"

Well it might not be as high as in some areas of England, but 5 children in a class of 24 isn't exactly low and that's the class with 4 languages in that I was thinking of.

" I think refusing to acknowledge that it poses a problem for the communities affected is precisely why Farage etc have been able to make the gains they have."

But equally refusing to acknowledge that actually Scotland does have pretty significant levels of immigration in some areas without it causing anywhere near as many issues means you block off any discussion about why that might be.

I know the situation in Edinburgh - and I don't want to turn this part of the thread into a debate about immigration . My point is more about the difference in levels of immigration across England and Scotland, and why it's more of an issue to communities there than it is here.

For the first time ever I've moved from No to undecided. I'm not at the Yes stage as there is still so much about the SNP Govt that I despise, not least their refusal to accept the will of the Scottish people and to do anything about the vitriol that has come from the Yes camp, but if they present a strong economic case (as opposed to the back of a fag approach they took last time) and they get assurances from the EU that we would remain or rejoin on the same terms as we have currently then I would (reluctantly) vote Yes. And there's a sentence I never thought I would write!

Well it might not be as high as in some areas of England

That's exactly my point! Link here shows how low down we are [http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/migrants-uk-overview]]. Got to run now but will check back later

I'm in a similar place. They need to work out, for me:

• currency
• EU membership or at least EEA to stabilise
• how borders and free trade would work with rUK
• I'd like to see them run a semi- balanced - maybe under 3% deficit- budget for a couple of years.
• no fairy stories. No pledges of extra spending. I want a realistic plan. Which is why I'd like the budget above - I'd like to see them run the country with as realistic as possible an estimation of what a post yes economy would look like.

Oh I've reported to mm and asked for thread to be mobed back, if anyone can be arsed please do the same

Two things strike me about this debate. One the idea that it would be economically beneficial for Scotland to stay in the EU without the rest of the UK. How on earth can that be economically viable?
Secondly when the rest of the UK are no longer in the EU but Scotland was then what would happen to the immigration figures that would remain unrestricted but you would then have the rest of the UK with possibly restricted access for EU migrants.

Statistically - the rest of the UK would have to get a free trade deal with the EU if Scotland was independent and in the EU for us to have free trade with them.

I was only outlining what would be necessary for me, not the practicalities of it!

"That's exactly my point!"

I'm not arguing that point though - I'm just saying that when you're talking about areas as big as Strathclyde and the rest of Scotland...there are still areas inside those with much higher levels of immigration than as a whole and yet not huge issues caused in areas like education.

There are reasons beside just Scotland isn't affected by immigration the same behind the fact that it isn't causing the same sort of problems...and no I don't think it's just because we're more welcoming, lol.

Much of South Lincolnshire and North Cambridgeshire were there s a large need for manual workers on the land and in processing plants is in a very different situation than any part of Scotland. I am well aware of how it feels to live in an area like that and the real problems that the massive migration from Eastern Europe has given.

there are still areas inside those with much higher levels of immigration than as a whole

I agree to a point - but even the areas with a higher level of immigration still don't have the same levels as the areas in England which have high levels of immigration, plus it's not so widespread. All I'm saying is that we are not affected to nearly the same extent, and so we have a different outlook on immigration. Whether that outlook would continue if immigration is impossible to predict.

Edinburgh has trouble with school places - but that's not immigration, that's because the council closed schools at the same time as the birth rate rose

But Edinburgh in theory should be making provision for 100% of children in the Edinburgh area for whom it is responsible whilst knowing that at secondary level it only will be educating 75% of them.

You'd hope so Lass but my experience of successive Edinburgh councils is that they just press ahead and hope for the best. I still remember the meeting about over-crowding solutions at which it was more or less blamed on parents not moving to Fife or going private. And the fact that housing contracts get signed without any thought that people are going to live and have families there.

Apparently (and I really will try not to divert the thread into 'Edinburgh council are sh*t' - because really that needs its own topic) all options are being considered including building in the parks and reopening an old school (which they closed despite everyone telling them the surrounding schools would be full, and in the full knowledge that new housing was going up).

Are you sure is as much as 75% Lass! It's a disgrace actually to think that the rake in all that money from council tax payers and don't need to spend it on all the children in the catchment area yet still fall short. Mind you there are quire a few children that come from outwith the city every day and others board so maybe not so many.

Sorry, that should read quite a few children!

It's probably not as much as 25% of Edinburgh kids who go private by high school because some of the population of the private schools will come from outside - many of them run buses to fife and the lothians. But it's still very high especially in some areas - which ironically are largely the same ones with the biggest over population issues in schools. The council plan in for a propionate going privately but frequently get it wrong, along with forgetting that babies being born will need educated in 5 years, that kind of thing

Proportion. Stop trying to guess what I mean phone!

"All I'm saying is that we are not affected to nearly the same extent, and so we have a different outlook on immigration."

I just don't think it's as straightforward as that...

This is totally anecdotal, obviously, but, my DD was at primary school when my area had a lot of polish immigrants, way higher than any sort of average because there was a fairly big employer that had always been understaffed offering lots of unskilled jobs, it had always been offering all those jobs, but for the first time it filled them all.

So in all the local schools there was a really high intake of polish children and yes there were issues to start with, but, the complaining wasn't about immigration (mostly, there's always one or two) it was about the council, the Scottish Parliament and of course Westminster and how they weren't funding and dealing with the situation properly.

I think one of the reasons it's different up here as well as just generally not having as much immigration is that when there is an issue is that it's Westminster that's blamed before anything like the EU and free movement.

That's probably true, we have a different bogey-man!

I agree to an extent - but if an independent Scotland means a far higher level of immigration from multiple countries across the EU and beyond (to the apparently uncontrolled rates they've seen - or perceive to have seen - in England) then I don't think we can know if immigration will continue to be welcomed up here - especially if we can't blame the evil Tories and Westminster .

It's hard to know whether Scotland alone would be as desirable as the UK- it might well be, but it's also a much smaller country, less diverse economy...it doesn't have the "bright lights" of London element.

I already know some people here who don't welcome immigrants. I'm afraid those specific individuals do fit a lot of the Brexit voting stereotypes though.

Oh definitely. I work in Lanarkshire - some of the comments that I heard on the lead up were not of a 'failte immigrants' nature.

Agree also re the desirability. There are many well established communities down south, they're closer to family back home, there are more big cities...again though, hard to say.

I feel it's very wrong that Scotland as a whole has been dragged out of the U.K. based on an English majority, even if it is the outcome I eventually would have liked to see. I hope we don't join the single trade market and instead can establish independent trade with other countries, however I don't know if this is possible.

My vote in the indyref last time was yes, majorly for these reasons. I didn't like the fact that we are dragged along behind England despite not wanting the same outcomes as England, purely because England is larger and more populated than Scotland.

We are not one big happy nation, we never will be. There is too much history and bad blood between our countries. I think it's important that Scotland at least tries to stand on its own two feet, at least tries to be independent.

Whether that includes Scotland being part of the EU or not is a completely different topic. I do however strongly feel that we have been dragged along behind England for too long now.

Scotland should have the right to decide as a country what it would like, and if that doesn't match up to my political feelings that's my problem. I would rather my political views won the majority of Scotland than the majority of England, because to me that's no win at all, its not what my country wants.

Scotland voted majorly to stay in the EU and I would respect that, what I can't respect is Scotland voting to remain and being forced to leave anyway.

Also, my wanting to leave the EU had absolutely nothing to do with immigration. I did the research, I knew that freedom of movement would likely never be stopped and I will always welcome people in this country, no matter where they're from, if they love it as much as I do and make it their home.