Scottish Labour

[ClopySow]

I've voted snp for the last while, but would align my political views with a traditional labour government, not new Labour. I can get on board with Jeremy Corbyn, but can't get past Kezia Dugdale. Are Scottish Labour more Corbyn or milliband?

houses haven't been valued for donkeys but that doesn't mean council tax doesn't reflect what your house is worth. if you develop your property your band will go up - if you knock down part of your property your band will go down. the figures on the bands make no odds - its just arbitrary numbers against bands - it doesn't matter if the number is 100k or 200k.

so you want more tax on houses, more local income tax and this is on top of the income tax and NI you pay the govt. how much money do you want to spend? how can anyone afford this model?

I disagree with high levels of tax - people pay tax on tax on tax already - you shouldn't be working to pay tax. I also don't believe that if you choose to work 100 hr weeks so you are better off and give your family a better life you shouldn't necessarily be taxed more. we should be encouraging people to work more, give them an incentive - more tax is not an incentive. Govt. should be encouraging people to better themselves and make them feel they benefit from what they earn. Govt. also need to remove the 50k limit they put on some benefits - it is unfair on families who have 1 high earner and 1 low earner as opposed to 2 medium earners.

I don't necessarily agree with high levels of state provided services - throwing money at services doesn't mean you will get value for money because services run by govt. are throttled by red tape and inefficiency. if I think about the service older people get from social care where I live it is appalling but its extremely expensive and you get a better & cheaper service when you go private.

Yeah right, tenants don't use any local services do they? That is a ridiculous suggestion. The Government is threatening rent control, Scottish landlords already have far higher maintenance standards than in England and you are suggesting they pick up the tenants' occupier taxes as well.

It would discourage empty properties, and there is nothing stopping landlords raisng the rent to help compensate.

Rent control is also a great idea, hopefully they will get round to wage ratio legislation too...

so you want more tax on houses, more local income tax and this is on top of the income tax and NI you pay the govt. how much money do you want to spend? how can anyone afford this model?

Because you get a lot of the money back, lots of which actually saves money in the longer term. Eg massively subsidised childcare -> more people working and paying taxes, citizens income -> less crime, less need for medical care, vast savings in administration. Free university -> highly skilled work force...

The trouble is Itsall that all the policies you think the greens should adopt are likely to see wealth and wealth creators leaving the country. In the long run that might not be a bad thing (a move towards a less developed more financially equal society - ie everyone has less of everything), but in the short term when the wealth creators and higher rate tax payers have gone where will the money come from?

Oh god, I'd forgotten about the citizens income.....

Has anyone done any costings for all this extra taxing and giving back to,people? I'd be keen on less state control, less tax, and for the tax and benefit systems to be properly integrated - that alone would save squillions.

Because you get a lot of the money back, lots of which actually saves money in the longer term. Eg massively subsidised childcare -> more people working and paying taxes, citizens income -> less crime, less need for medical care, vast savings in administration. Free university -> highly skilled work force...

erm sorry that doesn't work for me and I suspect a lot of people.

citizens income - CIT said tax levels would need to rise to a basic rate of 30% to cover the cost of this proposal. CIT have also said this will hit the poorest the most - 35% of households will be worse off. No not everyone will get money back - they have said people who earn over a certain threshold will not get anything but have declined to say what that threshold is - I wonder why that is? would it be any higher rate tax payer by chance? hhmmm let me think...

subsidised childcare wont get people working if there are no jobs for them to do. where are the additional jobs coming from?

why would a citizens income mean less crime? or less need for medical care? or savings in admin fees? sorry I must be missing something.

free university? nothing is free - everyone else is paying for it. not everyone is suited to university nor wants to go to university.

Personally it comes down to 5 choices on my voting slip, Greens, SNP, Labour, Tory, Lib Dems. Everyone else imo is a wasted vote. Greens, kinda fall into that category, not a big enough following for me to waste a vote on them, and after the last debate dont agree with what Harvie proposes anyway. Tory, I'd gouge my eyes out before I vote for them as they stand for everything I oppose. Lib Dems, perhaps would have had my vote in a previous life but supporting the Tories in 2010 lost my respect for them. Which leaves Labour and SNP. But when it comes down to it Labour are voting in all the Tory policies i despise so no point voting for them. Which leaves me with SNP. Who do have policies i dont agree with, (as do all political parties) but they have more policies that I do agree with. I find it laughable that people call their policies divisive. As if any of the other political parties are any more or less divisive, if that weren't the case why have they not all amalgamated into one party with their unifying policies cos it dont fucking exist.

However if Scotland ever becomes independent (and I really hope it does) then I think that an independent Scottish Labour party has the potential to make a stand if they return to their roots. Like someone said upthread, my main motivators for independence was the thought of likely banishing the Tories from Scottish rule. Im not sure SNP would do as well in an independent Scotland as they do in Scotland as part of the UK. So if you want rid of SNP majority then you need to vote for Scottish independence

harrassed out of interest can you tell us what policies you agree with please?

The steel industry is being left to die in the same way that the coal industry was. That has cost us billions buying coal from overseas to run power stations

Well, I remember Polish coal being bought by my DPs (for the fire) in the late60s/70s - it burned better and gave off more heat than UK stuff. It was cheaper too.

Our steel costs more than other countries' steel (for the same reason they make clothes in the far east and don't have factories in the UK). If we made stuff with our steel it would be more expensive and no one would buy it.

I was listening to a business programme on the radio and they discussed Amazon avoiding tax paying in the UK. The person said that the users/buyers (you and I), when it comes down to it, will buy from the cheapest supplier ie not the one who is paying high UK taxes and thus charging more.

,and there is nothing stopping landlords raisng the rent to help compensate

Rent control is also a great idea, hopefully they will get round to wage ratio legislation too

Spot the obvious contradiction there?

It is a ridiculous suggestion. Tenants use services too. It's nonsense that landlords should pay for the tenants.

Oh and by the way landlords do pay Council tax on empty houses at the moment.

If you mean that landlords should not be able to evict so that they can sell, that is a great idea IMO. Tenants should not lose their home when a landlord sells

I take it you have no understanding of why the 1988 Act was brought in?

I take it you've never heard of the concept of someone being posted away for their work and letting their house out?

I assume in your world all landlords are mega rich and their circumstances never change?

Why not go the whole hog and make private property illegal?

Or give out houses for free? Why should alll those nasty people who own more than worth more than the level approved in this wonderful socialist utopia be allowed to make any money from it?

Itsall I'd like to challenge your view that people with more valuable houses should pay more than those with cheaper houses. Why exactly is that?

you just kind of have to suck up the Independence thing. WTAF!

The most important constitutional issue affecting our country and could set us completely bankrupt and leave the citizens having to live in a one party dictatorship aka 1984 and you think it's okay just to "suck up the independence thing"? Holy moly.

I'd really like someone who is an SNP voter/fan and also a left wing socialist to list some of the things implemented by the SNP that has helped make Scotland more fair. Because I can't think of any.

Me too Magnum. The SNP harp on on about fairness and give the impression that they are socialists ar heart, but their policies disproportionately benefit the middle classes. The poorest in society don't benefit from free prescriptions, uni fees or frozen council tax - they would either not have had to pay or would have had help paying .

It is no coincidence that the SNP are nicknamed the tartan Tories

I know Anthony - I was brought up in poverty and am lucky enough (well I had to work hard for) to live in a nice house in a nice area. I would be perfectly happy to pay for prescriptions and extra council tax. If they'd even charged an extra pound a month over all these years then loads of our local services for the vulnerable wouldn't have been cut. The SNP didn't even spend the money they had set aside to relieve poverty while at the same time using the existance of ffod banks for political gain. They honestly make me sick.

The NHYes stuff pisses me off too as they have spent significantly proportionally less on increasing the NHS budget in Scotland than the Tories have in E&W despite having been given the money from the Westminster coffers to have the same increases here.

I just feel that I must be missing something if people think that they are left wing and socialist as I don't see it.

Anyway, my dream would be to look at the standing candidates and pick the one that I felt best served my community, however that's not easy, and it definitely wouldn't be the SNP as individuality is not allowed.

And wtf is this www.scotsman.com/news/scotland-and-china-agree-10-billion-investment-deal-1-4088869 all about?

I've heard they have a lot of cheap steel to dump sell? Maybe we are in the market for more since we must have used up the last lot they flogged us on the new Forth Crossing.

The most important constitutional issue affecting our country and could set us completely bankrupt and leave the citizens having to live in a one party dictatorship aka 1984 and you think it's okay just to "suck up the independence thing"? Holy moly.

That's not quite what I said. The most left party (excluding greens et al) is the SNP. So if you are a kedtie you either have to vote SNP (and independence) or vote right. I was bemoaning the lack of a left-of-labour-who-are-now-right party who don't support independence as currently there is none.

d like to challenge your view that people with more valuable houses should pay more than those with cheaper houses. Why exactly is that?

Taxation should be progressive, not regressive IMO. Bear in mind there are no " right" answers, a lot depends on ones own viewpoint on how society should function.

I'd really like someone who is an SNP voter/fan and also a left wing socialist to list some of the things implemented by the SNP that has helped make Scotland more fair

That very much depends on your definition of "fair"

itsall can you list some of the things that the SNP have done to redistribute wealth (one of the main socialist principles)?

Like yours magnum my family weren't exactly well off. DH and I have both worked, and do work, very hard to have nice house and lifestyle. If NS hadn't been so keen to,pander to the middle class vote Council Tax could have risen by a sensible amount every year to maintain public services and we wouldn't now but in a position of having to make cuts, nor would food banks have been necessary.

The SNP are not the most left party - you can post as many images as you like, it doesn't make it true and regardless, the point still stands, you can't vote for a party who's raison d'etre is independance if you don't want independence. It isn't someway down the list of their policies that you can sort of think well i agree with 9 out of 10 and this is sitting at number 8 so I guess I can take the risk on that, this is the number one thing they want. To vote for them because you think they are the most left (regardless of whether they are or not) without being for independence is ludicrous.

And yes, they haven't defined fairness in any capacity as it's just another part of the word salad from NS.

I'm going by my own definition which is that the more able in society help and protect the most vulnerable.

The operation of food banks is actually a socialist behaviour, where people who have more are giving so that others might not go without. So maybe by not giving the remainder of the poverty budget to them, NS was actually encouraging our socialist tendencies. Maybe they are left wing after all!

I can also see that they have been very focussed on making things equal - equal isn't always fair though.

Free school meals for all infants in school. Money could have been better spent giving vulnerable children a free breakfast or snack for after school or just simply making the meals better/more appropriate in portion for those already receiving free meals.

Free prescriptions for all, I'm sure the NHS could have found a better home for the income charging for them would have brought in. I've heard it said that the administration of charging for some would outweigh the benefit, if so, do something else, e.g. those who can afford to pay could have been encouraged to donate an appropriate sum to the pharmacy for the purchase of over the counter drugs such as paracetamol which could be donated to hospital pharmacies.

and obviously other things...