Scottish Labour

[ClopySow]

I've voted snp for the last while, but would align my political views with a traditional labour government, not new Labour. I can get on board with Jeremy Corbyn, but can't get past Kezia Dugdale. Are Scottish Labour more Corbyn or milliband?

To be fair, I was thinking that as I was posting clopy. I really don't know is the honest answer, but I'd rather continue to give them my vote and the benefit of the doubt as I would rather vote for a party with the principals of socialism behind them than a party who really only have one agenda which is nationalism. I truly thought we would have seen a lit mire from Labour and I have been a bit disappointed to be fair but I'll continue to give them the benefit of the doubt I think.

chips do you think corbyn will have an impact on scottish labour? Will they move back to the left?
Wasn't a lot of the in fighting because there was such a divide in scottish labour, with older more left wing and "new labour"?

nope imo a lot of ex scottish labour voters i include myself....have seen thrun various labour Uk leaders and scottish leaders means nothing,

they will stll vote the way the UK parliament wants them to, the whole seperating scottish labour from the UK party wont happen unless there is a 360 degree movement from past comments

i like corbyn, i think hes trying.....but an awful of of people havent forgot about the referendum and the NO camp siding with the tories and the labour people voting no plus the whole benefit cuts and trident and labour voting along side the tories... yes the referendunm was 55/45 overall but that 45% is a strong campaign in itself and so far its not as if the whole VoW has been fulfilled
there is a lot of distrust in scottish labour in scotland thatys coming from the labour party

See that's the thing, i did vote yes, but that was more to do with tory rule than feeling strongly about independence. I'd have no problem with the union if we had a good, strong, socialist government. But i'll always vote for the strongest alternative to the tories. I'm worried that labour will lose corbyn quickly and go back to milliband/blair style labour. I don't see them as opposition. And you're right about the way some labour mp's vote now. Are they doing it to undermine corbyn, because it certainly isn't in the spirit of what labour should stand for.

I do believe the SNP is a strong opposition.

imo labour UK isnt stable and it hasnt been since blair went
lot of people didnt like brown so the party divided then..... imo the uninons voting for ed showed that......

i voted yes as i was a independance supporter for yeares before i even voted SNP i always and still do feel we can do it on our own

the good thing about devioltion was that you could vote for a party in westminister and a partu for scotland and if they were different it didnt matter
but it changed
devoltion with PR wasnt set up to expect an overall majority
but the snp done it

and despite the downfalls that some might moan about......at this moment i still think they are the best party for scotland
labour et all when it comes to it will still vote in westminister the way the english party will want them to vote but scottish votes will be scarce

I wonder if corbyn gets that Scotland felt fucked over by labour? I mean it obviously shows in the way scotland voted in the last election, but i wonder if they understand that it was more to do with how scotland felt about labour than how we felt about the SNP? Or maybe i'm wrong on that one. Maybe even if labour hadn't sided with the tories, the vote would have gone to the SNP anyway because of the strength of feeling after the referendum

Disclaimer...i know i am not speaking for scotland.

I used to vote Labour, until Tony took over and did away with Clause 4. That's when New Labour started, and they stopped being a socialist party.

Labour's problem atm is that most of the Parliamentary LP (only one of whom represents a Scottish seat) is NuLab, while (it seems) most of their actual membership is Corbynesque socialist - the people want a left of centre Labour Party, but that doesn't exist. How they resolve this, I have no idea, but given Kez's 360 degree turn around on a future indyref within days of saying no, she'd refuse one... Well, strong leadership appears to be missing.

And Anas won't make that any better.

I'm not sure how much Westminster Labour affect Scottish parliament labour.

I'm surprised everyone is lumping them together.

I was impressed by Kezia in the debates - I like she doesn't let Nicola S off with some of her about turns. Though it's easy to be vocal and decisive when in the opposition as Nicola S is finding.
Can't believe the SNP didn't keep the high income tax for high earners- I find that utterly unjustifiable. Does it mean she will never be nasty to toffs in case they leave Scotland??? No one I've heard has asked her that in interviews, which is annoying, but that seems to be the case - can't charge them more they might move their taxable assets - unbelievable!!

Yeah, i was pretty surprised by that too, i can understand her reasoning, but isn't that how the Tories have justified taxation on big business? But maybe that is the reality of it now that we have tax raising powers. And maybe that's the reality of it for the tories too. Oh god. I never thought i'd start understanding tory policy.

I couldn't vote for SNP no matter what though - their policies are half baked and divisive for Scotland as a whole

Agreed. I will be voting for whatever combination will mean less chance of the SNP and the Greens doing well.

Despite being a Labour party member (but definitely not a Corbynite) I may well vote Conservative twice. Apart from UKIP anything else is preferable to the SNP and Conservative might be a better way of beating the SNP.

Man, it's all so complex. I find it genuinely baffling to think that anyone would consider a tory vote unless they are a tory thinker. But i also understand how anti snp some people are after the referendum and how strongly people felt on both sides.
I genuinely don't want to get into a fight about why my beliefs are right and others are wrong, it's such a pointless exercise, if you have strong beliefs, nothing i say will change your mind and vice versa.

Like i say, i'm not die hard SNP, nor am i hung up on independence, i voted yes because i saw an it as an opportunity to get away from tory rule and i genuinely believed Scotland was capable of success. But i may have felt very differently if we'd had a strong, more left leaning, labour government.

I don't see the benefit of the SNP sweeping the board in May, i did see the benefit of it in westminster because i feel they are a good opposition party where some of the labour party aren't. They are holding the tories to account for some of their incredibly unfair policies where some of labour are supporting them. In the same way i think there needs to be a strong opposition in the scottish parliament to hold them to account. I will never vote conservative unless the alternative is UKIP. So i guess my original question is still there, are labour in scotland an opposition worth supporting, are their politics left leaning enough? I think the answer is probably no.

Man, it's all so complex. I find it genuinely baffling to think that anyone would consider an SNP vote unless they want a hard right wing party and independence.

I don't think the tories are really that bad - certainly no worse than the Labour Party. truth be told I don't think any of them should be in power - they are all a shower of shits.

I don't see them As a good thing in Westminster because none of them vote for what they, as individuals, believe in, they all tow the party line and vote as a block - so much for them representing the people that vote for them. I don't think they do hold the tories to account - how can they with only 50 odd MPs there? Tories would win on numbers every single time.

I don't even believe the SNP want independence as such, I think they just hate Westminster.

So i guess my original question is still there, are labour in scotland an opposition worth supporting, are their politics left leaning enough? I think the answer is probably no

If by "left leaning" you mean the politics of Corbyn and McDonnell I hope they are not.

I don't support Corbyn . And the Greens under Patrick Harvey are turning into hardline left- wingers.

The thing I noticed about Harvey the other night on the leaders debate is he kept saying local councils need to make decisions. It seemed to me like the greens were going to give local councils more power across the board to do whatever they wanted to do.

I've also noticed none of them have really talked about the issue of all the jobs being lost in the oil industry and what it is going to cost Scotland and how they are going to tackle this.

Apart from anything else, no one should be voting for the SNP unless they are entirely committed to wanting an independent Scotland regardless of any cost. That is the reason for their existence and the only thing they stand for. They will take any vote for them as support for that aim. If that is not what you want then you can't vote for them.

I'm also not sure how they can simultaneously campaign for self rule and at the same time campaign to be ruled by Brussels. Let's be clear though that if the UK votes to exit Europe and then the SNP manage to get indyref 2 on the back of that....and Scotland votes to leave the UK, Europe isn't going to be standing there with open arms giving Scotland a free pass to Go.

Apart from anything else, no one should be voting for the SNP unless they are entirely committed to wanting an independent Scotland regardless of any cost. That is the reason for their existence and the only thing they stand for. They will take any vote for them as support for that aim. If that is not what you want then you can't vote for them

Exactly. That is why I would never vote for the SNP , no matter what they promise.

Interesting thread. I voted SNP in the Westminster elections for the reason of credible opposition, and not being able to get behind Labour. I really don't like Corbyn and the very socialist left. I honestly am wondering about voting Conservative for the first time, simply because there needs to be more opposition to the SNP - some of their stuff is half-baked completely, which is disappointing; and supporters seem often unquestioning.

I mean combined with some of labour they make up an opposition, and i really think opposition in parliament is important. Like i said, i think a strong opposition in the scottish parliament is important too.

I hate westminster. I find it embarrassing that the people running our country do so swinging between old fashioned pomp and circumstance and guffawing like a bunch of school kids, not helped by the fact that they are out of touch with the majority of people in this country. I cringe when i watch PMQ's.

Tbf kezia inherited a dud Jim wasa terrible leader he looked like he just wandered in off the street. Labour used to be strong in Scotland I dont think we would have devolution if it wasnt for Labour now they are just feeble imo

I agree about unquestioning supporters. And i suppose that's why i am really questioning how best to use my vote in May. SNP with no effective oppostion is as bad as any party with no opposition. But if the SNP is as right wing as many are saying, a conservative vote is going to mean a very right wing scottish parliament.

This thread has been really helpful in making me think about how to vote. But i need to do my research. I did it unthinkingly in the general election, as cocoabutton mentioned, for a credible opposition. But it's more complicated this time. My instinct is to vote as far left as i can, particularly with the comments made about how far right SNP is. But i don't see them as far right and i'm not keen on Labour unless their politics in scotland are more corbyn than milliband.

I'm going round in circles.

SNP definitely aren't socialist they are well to the left of Labour/LibDems/Tories though which is why they sometimes seem that way.

"Scottish" Labour is dead in the water while it is still part of UK Labour. They need to be like the Greens and have an independent Scottish party so they can have some decent policies and stand by them without having to obey the high command in London.

Ideally I'd like to see Scottish Labour as far left as SNP, but not supporting Independence.

If you are left leaning at the moment your only real option is the SNP, and you just kind of have to suck up the Independence thing. It'd be great if people had the option to vote left of the other parties without giving a mandate for Independence if they are against that.

I wanted independence. I was thinking that I couldn't stand another Tory government. In my own mind I was very clear that for me it was about asserting an independent political will, far from Westminster.

I am not impressed though by other SNP policies, at least that's the most polite way I can put it.

Is it my imagination or did the SNP used to be known as the Tartan Tories? I'm sure I've heard that somewhere.

However none of this is making me any more inclined to vote Labour in May. I just can't get round it in my own head.

It kind of reminds me of how I felt when I became disaffected by Labour nationally. At the time I toyed with voting LibDem but just couldn't do it. I genuinely have no idea who I'm going to vote for.

I hate westminster. I find it embarrassing that the people running our country do so swinging between old fashioned pomp and circumstance and guffawing like a bunch of school kids, not helped by the fact that they are out of touch with the majority of people in this country. I cringe when i watch PMQ's.

Have you been to any debates at Holyrood lately? I was shocked by the behaviour when I last went - the SNP in particular, but Labour to some extent, were doing exactly what the Westminster MPs do, laughing and jeering loudly at each other, drowning the other parties out. It was embarrassing to watch.

I'm also an ex-Labour voter. I expected to vote Labour all my life, but they left me when they ditched clause 4 and I haven't voted for them since. I'll be voting Green in May. I really like what they're saying about tackling wealth inequality as well as income inequality, and they are clear about the non-replacement of Trident. I don't think the penny on income tax proposed by SL is either fair or workable (Kezia never answers the question about how the rebate for lower earners would work) and I can't take Kezia seriously as a leader. It's Green for me, and possibly TUSC for the list vote, until such time as Labour re-adopt clause 4 or an equivalent, and put forward some serious proposals for tackling the ever-worsening divide between rich and poor.

But if the SNP is as right wing as many are saying, a conservative vote is going to mean a very right wing scottish parliament.

Image from www.politicalcompass.org/uk2015 for the 2015 elections

totally agree that a strong Labour is needed now.

It's scary. There's no opposition to what the Conservatives are doing - after the latest disabled cut back suggestion, I had to look up who the Shadow minister for disabled was to ask them to do/say something.

But Scotland doesn't have much to offer just now. Had my hopes set on Jim Murphy but think it wasn't the right time.

What's happened to socialist principles? Scotland used to be the place for it.