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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Really long one about my DM (handhold please) **Content warning - domestic violence**

128 replies

Oversharingnamechanged · 29/07/2023 11:11

Hello, I'll try to keep this as brief as I can and even then it'll be long. I've cried writing this so please no picking at my spelling and grammar errors. I'm dyslexic and not as articulate as I'd like to be.

I also want to say before you do read I'm going to mention DV/SA/Child abuse, so please don't read anymore if this heavy stuff will upset you.

deep breath

My mother is in many ways wonderful, not the most empathic person but I love her.

My upbringing was however awful from years of extreme DV from my father, she was literally his daily punchbag, he verbally/mentally/sexually abused her and I almost saw her die at his hands from being strangled. He was verbally very abusive to me, but also sexually at times. He also had a friend from the pub who would sexually abuse me up until I was about 5. They were all alcoholics and this man would create fights between them to take me to bed. The worst memory I have is him asking me to season a dinner my mother made him, I kept asking, "enough?" And he said he'd tell me when. Once the chips had been drowned in salt and vinegar he called my dad into the living room and explained I'd purposely destroyed his meal, my father started kicking and punching my poor mother in a frenzy, so this monster could look like a hero by taking me to bed.

He'd also start fights when I wasn't there, I believe this sick bastard enjoyed watching my poor mother be beaten. Once he laughed and said, "how embarrassing" to her when she had a broken cheekbone and nose. He died when I was still too young to disclose what he did, but weirdly he went on to have a daughter he named my name, creepy fuck.

After years of abuse I finally decided in my teens after a ferocious attack on me from my father I was leaving. I had seen so much violence, begged her to leave since I was able to talk, I just couldn't do it anymore.

Now this is where it becomes hard between mum and I. I had survivors guilt my beatings weren't as severe as hers etc, but also, she would gaslight me throughout childhood saying she had to stay because I needed a dad.

I'd pray for him to die. I'd fantasise about killing him. If my mother would try and sleep in my bed for safety with me he would drag her out and beat and rape her.

He'd spit at or on us both. But still she was adamant it was me who needed a dad. When I was in my preteens I found our PC was riddled with child abuse images, one in particular I still get flashbacks seeing. I remember snooping how it was on there and He'd specifically searched a phrase that would bring up CSA images.

He'd threaten to kill us. He'd kick the living fuck out of our poor lovely dog.

But my whole life I was told by my mother I was the reason she was not leaving.

Sadly, we even had places to go. She just wouldn't leave. I understand the fear, but she also didn't want to be without him. She still maintains they had good times. I just must have not been privy to those since every good time I can remember then turned to them drinking and mother getting beaten up or worse.

Once I left at 14 after years of unexplained hospital admissions, years of things such as being ND missed, years of being made to lie and gaslit etc, years of living in poverty whilst they drank and smoked excessively. Years of being made to look on the outside like I was simply this weird, stupid, withdrawn idiot, it took me until I had my first DC at 19 to even remotely recover.

I got a job and a home, my mother stayed with her parents who she frankly terrified with her moodiness and unpleasant behaviour and entitlement towards their home and food etc, she never paid a penny towards a bill.

During my early years of motherhood she was cruel to me, basically projecting I was a shit mum, telling me constantly "I was just behaving like a sister". I had a fucking mortgage, full time job, I paid for childcare, we had days out, we baked, cooked, played, we had clean and calm surroundings, my DS is the loveliest kid I've ever known. I worked my arse off to get us living in an area with outstanding schools, for a single mother who left school at 13, with ND and trauma, I did fucking good. Messed up along the way, got into debts etc, but my boy is the loveliest person I know. She Once told her friends, "if I didn't like how she was looking after DGS, I'd take him off her and she'd not see him again", I was there. I've never been hurt so badly, so you're telling me you'd remove my son because you don't like my parenting when you'd let random men from your abusive alcoholic boyfriend put your toddler to bed? OK mum. Thanks.

Recent years the trauma of her life with him has set in and she became so dependent on me, but in a cruel way. She'd piss all over my boundaries and cry hysterically they'd been put in place.

I'd taken on a role of carer for my DGM, her mother, who lived with us 24/7. This included toileting her, helping her dress, every meal/snack/drink for her.

She wasn't an easy woman but I loved her and she wasn't someone who belonged in a nursing home, she was too rude to people, truth be told.

During this time I also had 2 children under 3 and it was the first lockdown, my DH still worked most days as a keyworker.

The only time to myself I had in 7 days over 24 hours was a Saturday morning. DH wasn't at work, so he'd get up and sort breakfast for gran and our DC, allowing me to have some sleep, (I was still night feeding our youngest) or have a bath and just relax. My mother truly begrudged me this, now I see this reads as silly, but please understand we have a very odd relationship. Mother had DH's number obviously and her mother's, but instead would call me 7 plus times, as she felt I was taking the piss out of DH on a Saturday morning. If I didn't pick up she'd pop round and create murder until I was out of the bath and dressed.

This became so unfair that during one of her doctors appointments I attended with her I began to cry, saying I could do 6 and a half days a week, night or day, but i just wanted some time not to be making drinks or breakfast (I obviously would get up and take my gran the toilet and get her washed and dressed prior to going off for a soak and podcast, that wasn't ever an issue!) Anyway, her doctor said to her, "DM, your DD is caring for 3 DC and your DM, why on earth are you sabotaging the one break a week she gets? Why is it so upsetting for you that she has 2 hours of time to paint her nails?" And mother cried, "nobody would have given me this time!" And stormed out. I apologised to doctor and left, she rang me a day later to say, "oversharingnamechanged, you can take a horse to the lake, but you can't force it to drink". My DM also took away consent after this for me to discuss anything with her doctor again.

Up until my gran died, she hounded me on the weekend mornings, once she died I stopped giving a fuck and just didn't even bother. Of course once I stopped caring or wanting that time to myself, she never rang me.

My mother will cry nobody has ever done anything for her. Let me tell you this.

Her dinner service, cutlery, utensils, tea towels, drink canisters, microwave, kettle, toaster, sofa, curtains, TV, TV unit, sideboard, nest of tables, nice bedding, mattress, rugs, multiple cars, plants, picture frames and mirrors, I have bought for her, she's chosen, I've paid. Things such as towels etc too, not as birthday or Christmas gifts, just because I want to make her happy. I know I've been stupid, but please remember, when your formative years are badly ingrained images of your mother's face hanging off, you don't really ever want to see your dm upset or want for anything. She once cried at me in our local supermarket when she was out of work she had no money to eat, so I took her for a food shop, once there she cried like a toddler she didn't need "fucking food" and just wanted gin, tonic and cigarettes. She even threw out the trolley a loaf of bread I'd put in, saying at least get that so you can have toast, but she refused and said she'd rather a cheap bottle of wine instead.
I was so embarrassed I caved.

Don't get me wrong, when she's had money she's been more than generous to me also, truly she has.

After my grandmother died, I lost a baby, it was quite complicated and I required surgery. There was one day my friend took our DC out for us so DH and I could cry and just process the shit that had happened. Plus the surgery had been quite painful so we'd planned to just have a cuddle, have some lunch, be together on the rare few hours we had child free.

I rang her prior, to explain that we were spending a day to just grieve. So just text if there are any issues and I'd get back to her, but please no ringing.

So she showed up, I'd been crying heavily and was in my bed, she walked in, came into my room and I said, "please, not today, its just for us". So she went downstairs in a mood, made herself a cup of tea and started moaning about me to DH, saying how unwelcome I made her feel and how she'd lost a DGC and I was being selfish. Now DH does love her and he treats her so well and he wouldn't ever snap at her because of her past with my father, but even he struggled to keep his cool. She really just can't accept boundaries.

Anyway, fast forward and its last Xmas, she had been desperately wanting a particular breed of dog, we discussed in depth why a pensioner dog would be easier or at least a smaller breed. No, she had a tantrum and I caved, got her the large breed she wanted. I also bought her a massive crate to train this puppy with and tons of other things. She off the bat let this puppy just go wild, unfortunately never used the crate or training techniques etc, so she has an oversized dog that she cannot control. This is relevant later on.

So come Christmas last year, she fell out with me. She refused to come for Xmas and it absolutely destroyed me. I've cooked her Xmas Dinner since I was 18 and for my gran, so I really struggled but I also said after that, after asking her repeatedly to change her mind and be spoken to like shit, that I'd not be ever again putting myself in this position and from now on Xmas was mine and my dh and our DC. She texted me on boxing day, "hi love, can you send DH with some roasties pls?" No acknowledgement of what she'd done, just wanting food.

I was just broken.

A few months ago she said she was going to put her unruly dog in kennels so she could come here for this coming Christmas. I explained after last year, I'm not hosting again. We'd visit Xmas day if she wanted, I'd even make her dinner up and her usual Xmas hamper, but it wasn't going to be the "stay the week and let me spoil you" event. She cried and said she understood why I was saying this, but since then has simply ignored it by asking, "So are we having turkey this year or shall we change it?" So she hasn't fully accepted that I will not be hosting.

This seems so silly and I can only apologise if you've read this so far.

Now, I understandably don't ask for child care or really for much. However I had an appointment last week which required just DH and I, no DC. His family are far away and being summer hols, no friends had the time. Often our oldest DC can step in if it's a ten minute shop or something but it was going to be almost 3 hours and it's his holiday too.

Last time my DC went to my mums her dog playfully bit my DC and really scared him, we've never sent them again without either DH or I there. I asked her if she could mind my youngest DC for 3 hours tops, but specified that the muzzle on the dog wasn't negotiable. She agreed to keep DDog muzzled.

For what was only in the end just over 2 hours, it wasn't a problem, and the dog can still drink etc or alternatively go in her cage.

I do love her DDog, she's just large and untrained and very playfully snappy.

So DH picked up our DC, but the dog wasn't muzzled and had been snapping at DC's fingers. Again, as large as the DDog is, she's still a pup and it's not aggressive, but she does have food aggression and I've seen her properly snap. I'm not comfortable with DDog being unmuzzled around my small DC.

DC came home, they'd had a lovely day but the dog hurt his finger.
I texted DM thanking her for having the DC, told her they had a lovely time but they won't be coming again, as she'd said the muzzle would be kept on. I asked her for space as I knew I'd get text abuse, so she replied with her, "take care" which is code for I'm being exiled.

The next day after I'd had some space I rang her, told her a funny story involving DC, then said I wasn't being horrible with not sending the kids again without DH or I, anyway, she started screaming and swearing at me, and after everything, after ever last opportunity to not be awful to me. I just told her I want NC. She said fine.

And the guilt already, (she only has me, no friends etc) but she couldn't keep my DC safe. Not for less than 3 hours. She kept screaming "nothing fucking happened!", but I honestly don't think it was her choice to take that risk. She's said repeatedly she doesn't know about the dog snapping my DC's fingers, but that's proving surely she can't be paying enough attention to not have a muzzle on her dog?

Anyway I've blocked her from everything, she's been blocked off whatsapp for years, if I was online she'd call me, jokingly "oh you're online!" But I do have other people I talk to there and it was stopping me having friendships with others because I'd be too anxious to open a bloody message in case she called me. I have another novel in me about her behaviour towards me having friends, but if I've painted a picture for you here, you'll probably have guessed she doesn't like me having friendships. One of her favourite lines is, "if you paid the same attention to your DC as you do your friends" which is grossly unfair but has been something she's weaponised to make me feel guilty as a mum.

She has been cruel and grabby with her own no ex- friends and I'm deeply embarrassed by how she's treated them.

But now, I'm in hell with guilt and sadness. She doesn't have anyone but me.
I will mentally torture myself over this.

I also should add I'm due a baby in a month or so and she's been crying at me 24/7 daily over her awful life, I asked her a few months ago, (my pregnancy is very high risk for both baby and I) could she just kindly just let me have a bit of time to get through my scary pregnancy without making unnecessary (and it always is) unnecessary drama for me to sort.

It's always me being spoken to like shit, to then be told I'm abusive to her like my dad was, I bully her with my boundaries and it's unfair of me to ask for space from calls when she has nobody else.

Every therapist I've had has told me it's an unsustainable relationship, her doctors have, she was horrible to my grandmother. But yet to me she's my hero, the woman who dealt with so much but still worked several jobs and kept my clothes clean etc.

The lying, gaslighting, shouting at me, using me for money and anything else, it's just been my whole life.

But I really think the guilt of not checking she's okay is so crippling I might need more bloody counselling over it.

If you even read this, thank you. If you're NC with your own DM and can give me advice, thank you.

Another anxious apology for length on this post. This was as brief as I could make it and I've left out huge massive details.

OP posts:
Siouxiesiouxiesioux · 30/07/2023 05:46

Oversharingnamechanged · 29/07/2023 12:09

This FOG I've never heard of before and it's genuinely felt like a light bulb moment.
I can't thank you enough.

Yes, this is also helpful to me. Thank you.

TheoTheopolis23 · 30/07/2023 11:24

He was verbally very abusive to me, but also sexually at times.

Was she aware of that, do you think?

When I was in my preteens I found our PC was riddled with child abuse images, one in particular I still get flashbacks seeing. I remember snooping how it was on there and He'd specifically searched a phrase that would bring up CSA images.

Was she made aware of that?

What I'm getting at is that, while there is a question mark over whether was she aware you were being sexually abused by your father's friend when he helpfully put you to bed..... Because she was being beaten up, and because you were too young to articulate what he was doing (though you still have to wonder what she thought the motivations and behaviour of a man who started 'fights' between she and her violent, abusive husband, teased her a lot a broken jaw etc., and wanted to put a very young child not related to him, to bed).

..... But it's harder to believe she didn't realise you father was sexually abusing you, and what was her response if you told her about the images of CSA on the pc (and his searches)??

She should have left over the violence towards you and herself, but the sexual abuse is in a different league of immoral and criminal behaviour.

When she moved in with her parents, was it because she finally left him or he died or ...?

Oversharingnamechanged · 30/07/2023 11:52

TheoTheopolis23 · 30/07/2023 11:24

He was verbally very abusive to me, but also sexually at times.

Was she aware of that, do you think?

When I was in my preteens I found our PC was riddled with child abuse images, one in particular I still get flashbacks seeing. I remember snooping how it was on there and He'd specifically searched a phrase that would bring up CSA images.

Was she made aware of that?

What I'm getting at is that, while there is a question mark over whether was she aware you were being sexually abused by your father's friend when he helpfully put you to bed..... Because she was being beaten up, and because you were too young to articulate what he was doing (though you still have to wonder what she thought the motivations and behaviour of a man who started 'fights' between she and her violent, abusive husband, teased her a lot a broken jaw etc., and wanted to put a very young child not related to him, to bed).

..... But it's harder to believe she didn't realise you father was sexually abusing you, and what was her response if you told her about the images of CSA on the pc (and his searches)??

She should have left over the violence towards you and herself, but the sexual abuse is in a different league of immoral and criminal behaviour.

When she moved in with her parents, was it because she finally left him or he died or ...?

Hi theo, she knew he was verbally abusive, she'd tell me it was because he'd broken her down and he didn't get a reaction from her anymore so he was doing it to me instead, but he didn't mean it. He'd call me stupid/fat/ugly from very young, maybe 10? As I got older it was cunt/slut/whore type names.

She knew the computer was flooded with images, but believed they'd came from "a virus", this was the 90s and neither had computer knowledge, so it wouldn't have been unreasonable to have thought that.
I never told her about what he'd typed in the search engines as I was very ashamed to even say the words.
I didn't realise at the time it was specific to kids, but the use of words such as "tiny" etc followed by sexual phrases for female body parts.

She seemed to think the man from the pub was wonderful and helping to protect me, I did say he made me uncomfortable to her, but she made me feel completely unreasonable as he'd often buy me treats such as sweets.
We lived in absolute poverty and I was given a bedding set hand me down from one of her colleagues, i adored it. It was just colourful animals on it but it was mine. I went downstairs one night and this man was wrapped up in it on the sofa and I wouldn't ever cope with it on me again in the night. It went from being something I loved to not being able to even have near me. But I was made to feel spoilt. She'd often tell me she wished this man had been my dad and couldn't fathom why I didn't feel the same.

Moving out was very strange actually.
My father attacked me when I was 14 quite badly compared to just a slap etc, he came home drunk about 4pm to find me on the phone with my friend, he started calling me a fat slut and I hung up quickly on my poor friend (she still remembers this) and she kept calling to see what was happening, I ran upstairs to answer the line up stairs to ask her to not call again but he followed me up, threw me downstairs and smacked my face into the bannister at the bottom of the stairs. That was my moment to realise I had to leave, so I told my mum I was going. She actually begged me to stay and said he'd not do it again, but he would have, he didn't ever learn from his violence. So I found a way for us to leave after a few months, so we did.
Lots of awful shit happened when her and I lived alone and I left at 17. She completely rewrites this however. Even though I'd moved out I paid her rent for her with my wages I got from working in care homes, where I could work weeks at a time and do sleep overs so I'd be paid sometimes 1600 pounds a month, which was wild for a 17 year old me.
After an while she couldn't support herself and moved home with my grandmother and grandad sadly passed away, but then she was awful to gran up until I decided gran needed to live with DH and I, away from mother's moods and stealing of her money, which she did to the tune of thousands and thousands a year.

Writing this really has been shocking, I knew that was our story, I've never processed it visually.

Thank you for asking me.

OP posts:
Oversharingnamechanged · 30/07/2023 11:53

Siouxiesiouxiesioux · 30/07/2023 05:46

Yes, this is also helpful to me. Thank you.

I hope you heal my friend ❤

OP posts:
TheoTheopolis23 · 30/07/2023 16:25

Oversharingnamechanged · 30/07/2023 11:52

Hi theo, she knew he was verbally abusive, she'd tell me it was because he'd broken her down and he didn't get a reaction from her anymore so he was doing it to me instead, but he didn't mean it. He'd call me stupid/fat/ugly from very young, maybe 10? As I got older it was cunt/slut/whore type names.

She knew the computer was flooded with images, but believed they'd came from "a virus", this was the 90s and neither had computer knowledge, so it wouldn't have been unreasonable to have thought that.
I never told her about what he'd typed in the search engines as I was very ashamed to even say the words.
I didn't realise at the time it was specific to kids, but the use of words such as "tiny" etc followed by sexual phrases for female body parts.

She seemed to think the man from the pub was wonderful and helping to protect me, I did say he made me uncomfortable to her, but she made me feel completely unreasonable as he'd often buy me treats such as sweets.
We lived in absolute poverty and I was given a bedding set hand me down from one of her colleagues, i adored it. It was just colourful animals on it but it was mine. I went downstairs one night and this man was wrapped up in it on the sofa and I wouldn't ever cope with it on me again in the night. It went from being something I loved to not being able to even have near me. But I was made to feel spoilt. She'd often tell me she wished this man had been my dad and couldn't fathom why I didn't feel the same.

Moving out was very strange actually.
My father attacked me when I was 14 quite badly compared to just a slap etc, he came home drunk about 4pm to find me on the phone with my friend, he started calling me a fat slut and I hung up quickly on my poor friend (she still remembers this) and she kept calling to see what was happening, I ran upstairs to answer the line up stairs to ask her to not call again but he followed me up, threw me downstairs and smacked my face into the bannister at the bottom of the stairs. That was my moment to realise I had to leave, so I told my mum I was going. She actually begged me to stay and said he'd not do it again, but he would have, he didn't ever learn from his violence. So I found a way for us to leave after a few months, so we did.
Lots of awful shit happened when her and I lived alone and I left at 17. She completely rewrites this however. Even though I'd moved out I paid her rent for her with my wages I got from working in care homes, where I could work weeks at a time and do sleep overs so I'd be paid sometimes 1600 pounds a month, which was wild for a 17 year old me.
After an while she couldn't support herself and moved home with my grandmother and grandad sadly passed away, but then she was awful to gran up until I decided gran needed to live with DH and I, away from mother's moods and stealing of her money, which she did to the tune of thousands and thousands a year.

Writing this really has been shocking, I knew that was our story, I've never processed it visually.

Thank you for asking me.

Thanks for answering Over.

The reason I asked is that, while I think you'd be best going NC no matter what; I wanted to try to establish if she knew about the CSA and the searching/use of images of CSA (because those to me mean life-long NC).

The virus theory.... Maybe, at a push, if IT illiterate and naive.

The friend of your father's .... Extremely naive at best and not listening to you/intuned to you at all.

I honestly wonder if it was genuine naivety or intentional/convenient/lalala, fingers in ears, see no evil etc. naivety.

I'm not sure in what way your Dad sexually abused you and how she didn't realise that either

TheoTheopolis23 · 30/07/2023 16:34

That was my moment to realise I had to leave, so I told my mum I was going. She actually begged me to stay and said he'd not do it again, but he would have, he didn't ever learn from his violence. So I found a way for us to leave after a few months, so we did.

So you, as a 14 year old, still a child, had to leave home ... And make arrangements for your Mum to leave as well.

She had let him severely verbally abuse you for years and stayed to let him continue.

She took beatings you were aware of for years and stayed to continue for you to have to witness it, and risk him turning on you too.

When he did turn on you and start beating you (well, he could have broken your neck on the stairs,) she still didn't leave, and encouraged you to stay. Saying he wouldn't repeat it, even though he's never stopped beating her after he started.

She thought a man who provoked arguments in your home, provoked your Dad to violence, didn't intervene on her behalf when your Dad was severely beating her, was weirdly keen to get involved in a very young child's who was not related to him's bedtime, and who made a sarcastic, goading comment on severe potentially disfiguring injuries to her face ..... Was a good man, and she wishes she had been with him and he was your Dad, instead of your father.

What is there to say?

Is your Mum retarded, I don't mean that in a nasty way; seriously, could she be retarded?.

TheoTheopolis23 · 30/07/2023 16:38

Lots of awful shit happened when her and I lived alone and I left at 17. She completely rewrites this however

What happened, if you don't mind taking about it.

I think everyone on this thread thinks you should go NC with her anyway, but it would just reinforce the necessity.

TheoTheopolis23 · 30/07/2023 16:44

Your Mum has failed as a mother on every front.

This presumably happened in the 90s (?) so there was help available...you could get on the housing list, try to get a council property, be out in rental til you got one, go into refuges, possibly even get him out and get an occupation order through the police and WA. You could get job seekers, she could look for work.

Why is everyone doing everything for her ... You were doing it when you were still a child. You were arranging to leave, you were working to bring in an income to the household, you were continuing to do that when she should have been working or getting benefits herself. You should t have to have supported her and she shouldn't have been letting you. Then she still couldn't get a job and or benefits and support herself like an adult, age had to move in with her parents.

Is this due to her drinking? I know plenty of functioning alcoholics who support themselves and even families ....so why was she always the child who had to be looked after and kept??

What happened to your father after you got her to leave?

I'm glad the first man died (though I wish he'd been prosecuted before he did), your Dad should also have been prosecuted for his crimes, above all for the CSA against you.

TheoTheopolis23 · 30/07/2023 16:53

After an while she couldn't support herself and moved home with my grandmother and grandad sadly passed away, but then she was awful to gran up until I decided gran needed to live with DH and I, away from mother's moods and stealing of her money, which she did to the tune of thousands and thousands a year.

Ok so on top of being a neglectful mother (it was her job to supervise which adult men had access to you, and leave if she could not do that in the household she was in), a mother who let her child's father be severely verbally abusive to her for years, a mother who let her child grow up in an atmosphere of violence, threat, abuse etc.a mother who still would not leave of her own accord when her child's father violently attacked her ....a mother who lived off her own child, she's a woman who was abusive (the "moods" etc) to her own parents and who also stole thousands from them.

So she's a thief, off her own presumably elderly parents, too.

And she's had you doing the job that most daughters do for their elderly parents instead of her, because she won't do it and can't be trusted to do it.

All round, she's a an awful person.

She doesn't deserve a family, and she brings nothing but pain, strife, trouble, negativity, risks to you guys.

TheoTheopolis23 · 30/07/2023 17:10

The dog is an example of the risks.

You asked her to have the unsuitable breed she insisted on having muzzled and she refuses to respect your perfectly reasonable request.

She could have kept it away from your kids or at least kept it muzzled.

This is a woman who has no risk assessment abilities or who ignored risks.

That was the case with the men allowed in your home; doing bedtime for a small child who couldn't even articulate things

That was the case with the repeated beatings she stayed to take, anyone if which could have accidentally ended her life or disabled her.

That was the case with the encouraging you to stay after the first violent beating which featured things (stairs) etc that could have made a serious injury or death more likely.

That is the case with the heavy drinking.

That lack of awareness of risk ... Or lack of response to risk is a feature of psychopathy, you know.

I have a narcissistic/possibly psychopathic (people always think that psychopath means axe murderer but lots and lots of people functioning in society without being caught commuting extreme crimes are psychopaths) ....and she shared the same lack of ability to assess risk or at least respond to it in a normal, reasonable way.

For example; she would steal from her paper round or from neighbour's houses even though it was likely/obvious it would be noticed, she would have unprotected sex, she would drink heavily in situations with men age didn't know well or men whose "culture" was not known for being respectful to women eg bikers, soldiers ... I don't believe she had any bad outcomes from bikers (they're usually quite harmless countryside guys here, unlike Hell's Angels for eg) but she ended up gang raped by soldiers. She continued to date and chase solders even after that. She had a run in with a neighbour and told me she stuck a knife into the tyres of they're vehicle at night .... The possibility of that causing a serious accident apparently didn't occur to her or she didn't care. She rehomed her dog to my aunt who has grand kids, and it bit people; my aunt told me that she "didn't look surprised at all when this was reported to her.
Everybody who suggests anything is unwise/dangerous is "over the top, a worrier, anxious, strait laced, boring, needs to live a little etc. Etc.

Like your mother, she is long-term alcohol dependant.

I would suggest your mother has a personality disorder/is sociopathic/psychopathic.

It is not possible to have healthy relationships with people like that.

TheoTheopolis23 · 30/07/2023 17:17

*tyres of their vehicle

TheoTheopolis23 · 30/07/2023 17:22

Both of them are also an example of how, as other posters have pointed out, can be both victims and perpetrators/abusers.

My sister has suffered quite a lot of abuse (and things I hear about her current marriage suggest she suffers a type of sexual abuse in it) but she is still abusive and extremely exploitative to others (including her h).

They are weird and confusing paradox to get your head around. I think she's had you thinking she's a victim, and in some ways she is; but she's equally or more an abuser.

TheoTheopolis23 · 30/07/2023 17:32

She has trained and otherwise conditioned you to put her first with you and your kids needs and wants dead last. This is also why your children did not go to that Christmas grotto that time.

This poster has been on here for years ... And she has hot the nail on the head.

You have years of her conditioning to try to escape, you probably need ongoing counseling with someone suitable.

I reiterate other posters in saying that you should be so proud of what you have achieved for you and your family given your upbringing. Many another woman would have been dead from illegal drugs on a squat floor years ago.

TheoTheopolis23 · 30/07/2023 17:34

And your mother would have held significant responsibility if you had.

Oversharingnamechanged · 30/07/2023 18:12

@TheoTheopolis23 wow, you have really listened and responded to me. Thank you so much.

She is an intelligent but very difficult to describe woman. She's had good jobs, well educated etc, just zero common sense and somewhat naive.
If there was a fire, she'd choose to stay in bed with the quilt over her head than call 999 and run outside.

When it was her and I, I found a boyfriend who shockingly enough was abusive to me. I was 15 almost 16 and she adored him, he was a couple of years older. I tried to "greyrock" as the term goes him, but she'd constantly let him in. I'd come home from work and he'd be sat with her watching TV having a few glasses of wine. He hated me having friends and I'm really social, so he'd smack me/call me the usual slag type names for wanting to see friends. He once threw me across a concrete floor and once out of bed when I was asleep, i fell on a electric heater and cut my head open. The one time she wasn't in to let him in he broke in when I was in the bath and dragged me out, I'm mid 30s now and I still block the underneath part of a door when I'm in the bath with towels, so I can see if light or shadows change on the floor.

To get rid of him I simply dated his friend, a bigger, harder, no shit taking lad who thought he was a prick. Even though he left me alone besides the occasional email or nasty text, he kept in touch with mum for years.

Then this new guy, well, I slept with him unprotected and fell pregnant, just the once but it happened as I started a new Job and I just was so messed up I didn't know what to do, so I terminated the pregnancy. I didn't tell her and one day she came kicking off at me, she'd been looking for change in my handbag and found my letter from the abortion I'd had earlier that month. She was furious. So I went off the rails and (I really can't believe I'm writing this, I promise you this isn't bullshit, hand on heart) one night I got so drunk I ended up getting raped by a stranger.
I told her the day after and she just said the person who did it just thought I was a young drunk pretty girl and that she was sorry but that I'd be careful next time.
She wouldn't discuss it with me and made sure I knew going the police etc was pointless. After that I just needed to leave. I ended up marrying in secret at 18 to a man almost twice my age, which went as wonderfully as you can imagine. It went absolutely tits up, but I was too full of trauma and him his own issues.
But she did weird things, like I'd request she'd not drive down, "rape road" as I named it, it was a road that we'd probably driven down once or twice in 10 years, she literally went out her fucking way to drive down this road if we were going somewhere that was even within 10 minutes of it and then be annoyed at me if i became distressed. Like I was some attention seeking hysterical idiot. Seeing where it happened was just too traumatic, I felt enough of a great big twat having voluntary and drunkenly gone into a man's house, the shame was unreal and she'd just drive past it, out of her way to do so and then yell at me she didn't realise it was a problem. I asked her repeatedly to not go down one, one bastard road that was about 20 mins away from us. She was just compelled to do it.

Can I just say, this trauma shit aside, I'm quite a laugh in person, if you met me you'd think I was just some very chill quite ordinary, pleasant person. These are things about 4 people know about me, and its almost seeing it written down feel as though it isn't my life, but it is. Sorry if that makes no sense.

Thank you for asking me theo.

OP posts:
Oversharingnamechanged · 30/07/2023 18:17

TheoTheopolis23 · 30/07/2023 17:22

Both of them are also an example of how, as other posters have pointed out, can be both victims and perpetrators/abusers.

My sister has suffered quite a lot of abuse (and things I hear about her current marriage suggest she suffers a type of sexual abuse in it) but she is still abusive and extremely exploitative to others (including her h).

They are weird and confusing paradox to get your head around. I think she's had you thinking she's a victim, and in some ways she is; but she's equally or more an abuser.

Your sister sounds very self destructive, I'm sure that must have crushed you so much. You're a good person.

OP posts:
TheoTheopolis23 · 30/07/2023 21:40

If there was a fire, she'd choose to stay in bed with the quilt over her head than call 999 and run outside.

Well that certainly encapsulates her attitude to relationships

TheoTheopolis23 · 30/07/2023 21:42

Oversharingnamechanged · 30/07/2023 18:17

Your sister sounds very self destructive, I'm sure that must have crushed you so much. You're a good person.

Armchair psychology but I believe she is a vulnerable narcissist, or sociopath or something.

Your mother definitely appears to have a Personality disorder too.

TheoTheopolis23 · 30/07/2023 21:43

*When it was her and I, I found a boyfriend who shockingly enough was abusive to me. I was 15 almost 16 and she adored him, he was a couple of years older. I tried to "greyrock" as the term goes him, but she'd constantly let him in. I'd come home from work and he'd be sat with her watching TV having a few glasses of wine. He hated me having friends and I'm really social, so he'd smack me/call me the usual slag type names for wanting to see friends. He once threw me across a concrete floor and once out of bed when I was asleep, i fell on a electric heater and cut my head open. The one time she wasn't in to let him in he broke in when I was in the bath and dragged me out, I'm mid 30s now and I still block the underneath part of a door when I'm in the bath with towels, so I can see if light or shadows change on the floor.

To get rid of him I simply dated his friend, a bigger, harder, no shit taking lad who thought he was a prick. Even though he left me alone besides the occasional email or nasty text, he kept in touch with mum for years.*

I'm not quite sure what is behind her behaviour; is it the belief that you must have a man/you are worthless without a man; even if they abuse you horribly (??)

TheoTheopolis23 · 30/07/2023 21:52

I didn't tell her and one day she came kicking off at me, she'd been looking for change in my handbag and found my letter from the abortion I'd had earlier that month. She was furious.

More ridiculously shit parenting.

one night I got so drunk I ended up getting raped by a stranger.
I told her the day after and she just said the person who did it just thought I was a young drunk pretty girl and that she was sorry but that I'd be careful next time.
She wouldn't discuss it with me and made sure I knew going the police etc was pointless.

Yet more horrendously shit parenting.

Ok, I'll say that I would doubt the likelihood of a successful prosecution of a rapist with a very drunk victim, but it wouldn't stop me from reporting it so a. My dd knew without doubt that she'd had a abhorrent crime committee against her, and b. so that the man had that on his record.

The road driving ...m now I'm going from "she thinks a woman is worthless without a man no matter how bad he is" to "she is some kind of twisted sadist and wants women to suffer what she suffered (even though she stayed to suffer most of it when she didn't have to) and wants other women (or specifically her dd) to suffer, to be unstable, to be upset etc

She loves chaos and upset and strife, doesn't she? It's her natural habitat.

There is something seriously wring with her. I'll be honest, I hate her fkg guts and I'm a stranger on a forum reading your story. She is such a travesty of everything a mother should be.

Her issues are unlikely to ever be solved.

She doesn't deserve contact with you.

category12 · 30/07/2023 21:57

There's something really wrong with your mother. She basically furthered and enabled abuse of you all your life.

Maybe because she suffered abuse and thinks it's normal, and doesn't want you to escape it. It seems like she actively promotes situations where you will be put at risk or re-traumatised, given the opportunity.

No contact, a million times over, is my advice. Put yourself, and your children, first. They're the most important thing.

Let go of the fear obligation and guilt she's created in you. You owe her fuck all.

TheoTheopolis23 · 30/07/2023 22:00

Oversharingnamechanged · 30/07/2023 18:17

Your sister sounds very self destructive, I'm sure that must have crushed you so much. You're a good person.

Thank you. Like most people, I'm a mixture.

My sister had not spoken to me for years now. That is sad but I've seen what her speaking to my Mum and two other sisters does to them (stress, frustration, anger, upset, offence etc.) so I have to see the silver lining.

I am also much blunter and harsher than when she last spoke to me, so any interaction between us would quickly go downhill badly (I'm unimpressed by her abuse of my eldest sister, who has health worries and my Mum in particular and would not be able to stay tactful sonits a good thing we are NC).

With some people, there is no other option. Family, birth, "blood" is ateotd; accidental. Pure chance. You did not choose them you and if you were a stranger to them you would likely get the fuck away from them asap. You would recognise they are dysfunctional, nasty, troubled, disaster area users etc. and run.

TheoTheopolis23 · 30/07/2023 22:03

*There's something really wrong with your mother. She basically furthered and enabled abuse of you all your life.

Maybe because she suffered abuse and thinks it's normal, and doesn't want you to escape it. It seems like she actively promotes situations where you will be put at risk or re-traumatised, given the opportunity.*

Category has gotten to the heart of the matter and articulated this so well.

TheoTheopolis23 · 30/07/2023 22:20

I do still wonder if she was truly so naive about that CSAbuser she allowed to do your bedtime as a very young child ..... If not, she is one sick in the head, depraved individual.

She seems so in thrall to men, to your "father", to his friend, to your shitty, abusive ex bf (still in contact long after), it's like she thinks they're to be worshipped and deferred to (even as they show themselves to be cruel, abusive etc). Does she think cruel, violent, abusive behaviour is a sign they're masculine/macho/dominant or something.

With such a submissive, deferential attitude ... I have to say I wonder if she did suspect they were child sex abusers, and let them do what they wanted, but pretended she didn't know.

If she thinks it's natural that a man would raoe a young pretty, drunk & vulnerable woman ... Perhaps she thinks it's natural that they would take advantage of and enjoy themselves with vulnerable, defenceless, pretty little girls as well. Maybe she thinks that's what all men are like.

TheoTheopolis23 · 30/07/2023 22:22

(It wouldn't be the first time a woman sacrificed children to CSAbusers in order to keep a man, not rock the boat, keep the status quo etc.)

Those women never knew or realised either, apparently. They always plead implausible ignorance when challenged.