April 2023 -"Well we took you to Stately Homes"

Whathectualfuck your ExH is despicable.
What a horrible thing to do. Moving again is not something feasible. I don't know what the answer is but I am finding the podcasts above really useful. Thanks very much Scapingafter 50 years to posting them. Really and truly it's a life change for me. The last three days I woke up with no anxiety. It's amazing.
Thanks so much for creating this group. It's a life saver.

Hi all, I am new to stately homes (visited a few, it has to be said) but have been reading some of the posts and found a lot that resonates. My story, briefly - violent bully of a father. Awful childhood as a result. I cut contact with him completely when I was in my late teens and never regretted it for a moment, so current problems aren't really about him. They're about my mother.

I've done a lot of work over the years both to understand things that happened in childhood and to understand what those experiences did to me, and I think I have a pretty good grasp on things. I'm doing pretty well in adult life - good marriage, nice kids. Very stable, quiet life. I live in a bit of a bubble for my own mental wellbeing (but it's good, I like it here!). I've got a painful chronic illness which I understand can be a lasting legacy of that level of childhood stress.

A few years after my parents divorced, I began to see my mother in a new light and realised the extent to which she had parentified me through my childhood, and the responsibility I felt to keep her safe. I was often described as very grown up, very mature (or as my father used to say, like a little old woman). In hindsight I know this wasn't good. Anyway, she left him for someone else and quickly remarried and I was effectively cast aside. It hurt at the time - I was such a mess and didn't know who I was without that role. But I figured it out and once I could analyse her behaviour from a distance, began to see how selfish and needy and often cruel she was, and that I'd been trained to believe that my needs and feelings didn't matter and that I was wrong to have them. After I had my kids (and she was weird over the first and just mean and disinterested with the second) I began to go LC and also put the information diet firmly in place. They then retired and moved really far away from us and contact was reduced to two short visits a year. We went a couple of times when they first moved and then stopped going. We don't talk on the phone and it was those two visits and maybe skype once in a while and that was it. It felt like a cloud had lifted.

However the inevitable has now happened and her partner has died unexpectedly and she very quickly turned to me and said that I have to take care of her. We invited her to stay for a couple of weeks after it happened. I didn't know what else to do, really. It was disruptive for us, we don't really have room (youngest slept on the floor in the office and she had his room). She spent the time sitting on the sofa in our living room and expecting to be waited on hand and foot. This is a woman I've barely spoken to in close to 20 years. She did go back (I was terrified that she wouldn't) but since then has been messaging and saying she wants to come and stay again. No. Not happening. She's talking about moving where we live even though she doesn't know anyone here. I replied to the last message saying if she wanted to visit she'd have to get a hotel/airbnb as we can't really put son out of his room again (v important school year, he needs his space) and she hasn't replied. I am like a cat on a hot tin roof, checking for messages every 5 minutes. I know I have to be firm and that she's not my responsibility, but I'm also afraid that a major tantrum is coming because I won't do what she wants. I'm also afraid of being leaned on again like I was as a kid. I can't parent her through this. I also don't understand, at this point, why she thinks it's reasonable to expect me to. Argh, the guilt. Thanks for reading. x.

@MadamePickle you have already done more than anyone objective would expect you to. Many people would be fully no contact by now. Let her tantrum and please don’t let her lean on you because she sounds a lot like my mother and the more you give the more she will take and expect. If you can get counselling even just a few sessions will benefit you. My own counsellor was really clear with me that it’s ok to put my own needs first. Focus on your husband and children who sounds great.

Hopefully people better qualified than me can support you setting boundaries.
Also google FOG.

@MonkeyfromManchester - that's the thing about therapy. Repressed memories can resurface and old wounds are opened up. I have vague recollections of being sent to "play" at houses where I had no friendship at all with the other child. With adult hindsight, I had assumed that it was a case of being dumped at that house when DM needed rid of me for whatever reason.

I've stopped trying to make sense of all the inexplicable things from my early childhood because there was no excuse for any of it. I just acknowledge that it was fucking unforgivable and allow myself to feel rage on behalf of the vulnerable little girl that I was.

I was thinking to myself just this morning that my mother had no business having children she didn't want and couldn't provide for, emotionally, financially, or any other way (and of course my father was complicit in this). It's not like contraception didn't exist. But of course with her being catholic and all that shit.

I totally understand MM's rage.

Madame pickle

Stick to your guns . She discarded you . She's a user and she's trying to move in with you . You've built up a good life . Put yourself first you have done enough . If she meets someone new you will be dropped again .

@MadamePickle - It sounds like you’re having a typical trauma reaction to this new situation with your mother. All those terrible feelings are being triggered at the thought of her inserting herself into your now peaceful life.

You already know that you don’t want her in your life and that she is going to go into a full-on rage when you refuse to do her bidding. That rage is of her making, not yours.

Stand strong. You don’t owe her anything.

If you can’t go fully NC with her, then I strongly advise that you get a burner phone just for her. Tell her you’ve changed your number, then block her on your regular phone. Keep the burner phone switched off, then you can choose when you turn it on and deal with any text messages. Do not have an answerphone on the burner number so she cannot leave voice messages.

Any contact she has with you needs to be on YOUR terms, not hers.

Read up and learn about FOG (fear obligation and guilt) and know that this is all linked to the way you were treated as a child. This is not your fault. And it’s not your responsibility.

Preserve your peaceful life and the lovely bubble you describe. Your mother has no place in the life you have built.

I think on some level there is awareness that what happened when I was a child wasn't right, and that she had a responsibility to remove me from that situation and didn't meet it. But I don't think she's capable of looking at that too closely. I don't think she could cope with it if she did, because the bottom line is that although she did finally leave the marriage, she didn't do it until I was more than old enough to have been very damaged by it, and she only left because she met someone else. The harm being done to me wasn't enough to motivate her to leave. But obviously she could leave. She proved that. How she's behaved after that, and her own treatment of me, I think she's completely unaware of. It's almost like she can't see me. She has an idea in her head of me that's not actually me at all.

I feel bad for her, I really do. What has happened (her partner's death and her now being widowed) has clearly been horrendous as it was a late cancer diagnosis, something I wouldn't wish on anyone. She's flailing around now desperately looking for someone to fill the gap and take care of her and so her instinct has been to come straight to me. But I can't do it and I feel that it's unreasonable to expect me to. I guess the mistake we made was inviting her to stay for that couple of weeks. We opened the door there, didn't we :/ I don't know if I'm ready to go fully NC but I would if it was necessary to protect my wellbeing - I'm not someone who feels that you should maintain contact with family at any cost. My kids barely know her and probably wouldn't notice TBH! I don't really have any other family (1 sibling, but we're not close, I only hear from them once in a blue moon when they want something).

I've never had any professional counselling but I'm seriously thinking about it.

Listening to the "Insight" podcast this morning and feeling quite angry at the fact that I grew up being gaslighted. Listening to the stories on there, my memories of being the scapegoat have been reinforced. So sad.

I'm realising how much emotional energy interacting with my mum takes. It has taken my over a week and a half to recover from being trapped in her car and shouted at in front of my children. I am feeling lighter on the NC decision, but wondering whether I should also leave all the whataspp groups we are both part of? She has recently been posting about family constellation and the importance of family and healing your inner child. If only she really did the work then she may heal her own hurt and stop trying to hurt me! I have put the groups on mute and don't post much myself but I also don't want to leave the groups altogether as I feel that she has been trying to alienate me from the wider family (by saying that they all talk about me behind my back and think I'm shit). Thoughts gratefully received.

@Frazzledgoat I think muting the accounts as a first step is an excellent idea, especially if you're able to stop yourself from looking at them (it can be like picking at a scab - you know you shouldn't, but you do it anyway!) I wouldn't take anything that's said about what family are saying about you when you're not there at face value as it could be just about making you cut ties with them, and then she can say look, she did it to you too, it's not me, it's her, look, evidence.

How much contact do you have with wider family generally, and is there a way to maintain contact with them that's separate from the whatsapp groups? Or can someone else monitor the groups for you, and then if there's anything you need to know/want to share, it can be done, but you don't have to do it and it gives you that extra degree of separation (my OH does this for me with certain things).

I would perhaps consider staying in the groups for now, knowing that you always have the option to remove yourself from them if you want to, and put in place ASAP the steps to make sure that you're not having the face to face contact that will create the situations like the one you've described above, screaming at you in front of your children (I am so sorry that you were forced to endure that, and I wanted to say that doing it in front of your kids is a deliberate choice, and it could be argued done to make it all the more painful for you - to increase the severity of the punishment, as it were). It's totally reasonable to decide at this point that you don't do that sort of contact because of that behaviour. No-one should be putting up with that.

only she really did the work then she may heal her own hurt and stop trying to hurt me!

I think this is the key of why we keep feeling hurt. @Frazzledgoat from listing to podcasts last week about NM, the thing to understand is that narcissits will never ever go on self reflection because they don't think need to change anything at all. Their self awareness is zero. If you are not self aware of how horrible you are, and create a false reality around you and about you, then it's stupid of us to try to make them see what they do that hurts.
It's terribly frustrating but they literally can't see it, and that's why they lie, believe their lies and don't care about us because also they have no empathy and only operate and feel well about themselves by putting us down.

Do not waste any energy on this. Next time I'll be in front of my mother ill see her as it is. For the first time. I feel like being in front of a psycopath. Should I try to bond/ fix/ reach an agreement with a psycophath? No. There you go. She is no different. We are just unlike to be raised by one.
I don't know if I'm explaining this well at all but this idea has been a breakthrough for me for the past few days.
Wishing you reach some peace either going LC or NC. xx

@Frazzledgoat sometimes waiting a few weeks or months can help you figure out what to do with things like WhatsApp groups. Recently every time I feel like I am in a dilemma about what to do because of going NC or LC I just wait a few weeks and do nothing. 90% of the time all I need to do is to continue to do nothing.

It's taken me a very long time to realise that my narc family members thrived on reactions from me. Doing nothing and having no reactions has been liberating. I feel like I've got myself out of a cycle I was stuck in.

Keep the groups on mute and be strict about not posting anything yourself for a while. If your mum is on the group she might post stuff to trigger you or get attention from you. Then you can always decide later if you want to leave the group.

@Frazzledgoat I have not left the family WhatsApp group but it's on silent and I don't read or listen to everything. I have zero impulse to write anything. This went the day I saw through all the abuse and knew I was done.

It was noted that I no longer participate by my mother, the abuser. It's interesting how these people know exactly it's because of them even though they can do no wrong. It bothers me very slightly that I am still in it but I am too vulnerable right now to deal with the fallout of leaving it.

I was thinking to myself just this morning that my mother had no business having children she didn't want and couldn't provide for, emotionally, financially, or any other way (and of course my father was complicit in this). It's not like contraception didn't exist. But of course with her being catholic and all that shit.

@Sicario I doubt there's a day that has gone by in the last 30 years when I've not thought the same. The thing is, my mother has admitted that she told my father when they met that she couldn't have children (based on nothing, no medical diagnosis, nothing more than a 'feeling'). Less than 6 months after the left she was pregnant with my older brother...so much for being a 'good Catholic'! Myself and my younger brother followed in the next 4 years...we were all 'accidents'

Neither of them actually wanted or planned to be parents and they were both beyond shit at it. And like others have posted, narcissists have no ability to self reflect/have insight. My mother still doesn't understand why she has no grandchildren.

*after they met

@freerider @Sicario

My idiot father regularly used to tell me that he'd never wanted children and my mother had forced/tricked him in to it, and it had ruined his life. What's really insane about it is that he used to say it like he deserved sympathy for what had been done to him.

Not quite sure how he expected to get this from one of those children 🙄

I am so tired today, couldn't sleep properly last night due to lots of flashbacks and racing mind triggered by a text from my mother yesterday which included the words 'I can't cope.' It dawned on me that this is her dog whistle and then I couldn't stop thinking about all the times she's used that on me before and how the result was all too often that I would drop everything and rush in to do what she wanted. I could hear the pathetic voice she always said it in and see the bottom lip wobbling. Then the thoughts of maybe I could do it this time, I'm being unkind, etc etc started to creep in. Argh. Deep breaths. Have to keep reminding myself that what I've offered is reasonable.

@MadamePickle I hear you. It’s hard to not respond to the dog whistle and not feel the guilt. Stay strong. Easier said than done.

Mr Monkey is going through similar with The Hag (his mother) He’s had pretty hard core therapy and moving into the CPTSD phase which is really hard. He’s very low contact with a hHag. His memories of the abuse are surfacing and are horrific.

The hag is guilt tripping him as we are seeing our sister-in-law up in Scotland this weekend. Hag actually said why aren’t you taking me? Beyond hilarious as she has taken fuck all interest interest in her grandchildren (in their early 20s, she’s seen them five times in total) and actively dislikes her daughter-in-law, although she hides it.

We are obviously not taking her up on her kind offer to come with us.Christ, the idea. This suggestion came when I had realised that I was going on the trip which is ridiculous considering Mr monkey and I are in a relationship and have been for the last 15 years. As soon as she asked who was going (WTAF) and the answer was monkey it was “I never see my grandchildren”. Just ridiculous. She will be shoving some cash packed envelopes for the boys through the door tomorrow in her power play bid.

Slave son is concerned. And quite frankly she just needs to see a doctor and go to the memory clinic which was recommended three years ago, but it’s far better to be a martyr, of course.

Mr monkey is finding this hard, and although he’s not going to get back sucked back in, he’s thinking he needs to take charge. NO WAY. Yes, he is finding it really difficult and feels guilty, but this is a huge step back. Even I I last night thought we could help her (I punched myself in the face). There is no fucking way that we could do this for our sanity and quite frankly, she doesn’t deserve it and the mask she is currently wearing of the victim will slip.

The lack of contact with people and the determination to only have two people to rely on (to crush into servitude) e.g. her sons has meant that’s a lack of connection with people and this has now contributed to her mental decline. She was advised this by her doctor in 2020, but has ignored all professional advice.

Mr monkey realises this, but still feels the guilt. Can’t she just die? Or speed up the dementia, put her in a home and throw away the key.

My grandmother got 3 of her sons (she had 9 children in total) to throw away their lives, to never leave home and look after her. She was nearly 90 when she died, they were all in their 60s. 25 years later they are all deceased.

Grandmother was beyond wealthy and could have easily afforded to have a live in nurse ... but no, she would only accept 'help' off family. For the last 4 years of her life my mother would have to travel over to her house to bathe her. Right up until the end she was getting her adult sons to take her to the toilet...FFS.

Beyond ridiculous. I made it clear to my mother that she was NOT to expect the same from me (only girl, damn it) when the time came.

*travel over to her house every single day (my mother doesn't drive). Should have also added that those 3 uncles never married or had any children of their own.

@MonkeyfromManchester I think you have to learn too that you can just sit with the guilt and wait for it to pass before you decide what your reaction is going to be. Guilt isn't pleasant, but it's bearable and it passes and then you're making careful, considered choices, not knee jerk ones powered by emotion. So maybe the goal is not to expect not to feel the guilt, but to have a set length of time that you always wait before replying/making a decision.

I think I knew on one level that old age was going to be difficult, but I've been protected by distance for a long time which made being LC really easy, and her partner was a barrier in the way. Honestly, if it hadn't been for him I likely would have gone NC 20 years ago. It sounds bad but I was hoping she would go first and then I wouldn't have to deal with her.