April 2023 -"Well we took you to Stately Homes"

I would love to go very low contact but apart from the mental crap they were good parents in other ways. We had everything we needed and they would go without themselves to make sure we got it . Friends and DP have said to me to cut off but I guess this is why I still see them . I just put them on an information diet and let them talk about themselves .

No not gifts but clothing, food and a clean warm home . Even though money was tight and dad went through a drinking phase . So they got some parenting right . I don't go above and beyond for them now they are old .

@tonewbeginnings These people will use every thing they can against you, so don't give them extra ammo! They love being victims and if you wrote, you're letter would be shown around as an example of how awful you are and how they are sufferers your "abuse". The level of disorderedness in their thinking is hard to comprehend. Protect yourself, maybe write the letter but then burn it.

@fruitynutcase Feeding, clothing & sending your children to school are the bare minimum requirements of parenting. Do not give your parents credit for doing the bare minimum. The emotional side of parenting is incredibly important, sadly many parents fail as evidenced by the many posters on this thread.
You can have sympathy for your parents difficult circumstances, but don't confuse this with their behaviour towards you.

Thanks I appreciate all the replies. As always it’s good to not feel alone with dealing with this horrible stuff.

I find it reassuring to hear that a letter or conversation about going no contact would just be an excuse for more drama and blame on me. It’s weird to read advice columns online where most of it resonates and then there’s one bit of advice which is not right for me (like the letter about going no contact). As many of you said I need to trust myself.

Thanks for being my sounding board 💛

———————————————

Someone asked how things are with the rest of my family. If you’re interested it goes like this…

My two brothers are at the extreme end of narc personalities. My sister is less so but has major parent pleasing issues (she’s the golden child) and does a lot to maintain this position. As my parents expectations of her have grown and she’s growing older it feels like she is questioning some of it and setting new boundaries. However, she gets a weird amount of joy out of being better than me (in her and my parents eyes). Playing a board game with her is always funny as I can see how frustrated and upset she gets if I win. She really hones in on beating me, rather than everyone else. She’ll say ‘good move’ or ‘nice one’ to other players moves and look angry if I make a good move! So, it’s a minimal contact situation with her rather than no contact. We have very different outlooks and I’ve shared with her that I want to keep things simple, nothing too deep. She didn’t love this idea but has made it work. Our relationship is ok - we see each other for a couple of days a year and about a phone call a month.

It will come as no surprise that our parents were not available emotionally or supportively as parents. Being the youngest I was my mothers parent since about age 10. Helping her through translating, emotional issues and physically (she was ill most of her life). I’ve felt so bad for not wanting to be around for her more as an adult but she abused me. It would have been possible for her to be kind and supportive towards me while going through her illness - which was curable and treatable.

My father was a typical older generation man. Not many words or emotions but also not much drama. He was my safe person in many ways and while he wasn’t there emotionally he also didn’t lash out towards me like my mother. For example when I told my parents that I no longer want to attend their religious celebrations in a formal way because I don’t agree with a lot of parts of the religion (I was happy to have a nice meal with them etc but just not the praying institutional part), my dad calmly said “you’re a grown adult and you make your choices”. My mother went on for years about how nothing good will happen to me and I’ve lost my mind etc. for not doing what God has said. I was in my early 20s at the time.

I think you can see that my mother is an integral part of the drama and unhealthy roles in our family. I feel sorry for her at times because she moved to the UK, barely spoke english, told me since I was little that my dad used to hit her violently when they first got married and was ill most of her life. But she has also created so much drama, tells lies and plays her children to fit into whatever she needs. She is unable to spend a minute by herself and gets upset if one of her children isn’t lunching or dining with her. She pays for everything and uses her wealth as part of her whole influence and control. If I visit her (in my hometown) and meet an old friend she interrogates me about the friend and then finds something mean to say about them.

It’s a very difficult situation when you have empathy towards someones struggles and at the same time hate their behaviour. Like me with my mother. I feel stuck with this relationship. She expects a call daily. She expects a visit in every single school holiday and I feel ready to break this cycle too. I want to reduce this to a call a couple of times a week and a visit twice a year (for a few days). She is in her 80s and lives alone so I do worry about her wellbeing.

Phew! It’s a lot and I know many of you are battling through a lot while trying to recover too. 🤗

You are right . I wasn't a wanted child and I felt the resentment every day , I can pick up on hostility from people toward me , I can read people. It's people who had the mental crap and neglect I feel sorry for it's like a double whammy.

That is the only thing I'm grateful to them for . I was never hungry dirty or cold . Also my sibling was the golden child despite bringing them nothing but stress and anxiety. I took beatings for her misdeeds as she was copying me ! I was also compared to my cousin who they said they wished she was their daughter instead of me . I have accepted all of this . I can change them or the past . I've given up ever being accepted. But I know when they are gone I will be fine , my sibling won't as they have made excuses for her and pulled her out of the mire many times . Like I said need to know basis and don't bust a gut for them ever , my needs and my own family come first .

My mother and brother are currently engaged in a narc battle. It would be funny if I didn't risk being drawn in. I can't always tell if it's family normal or just wrong.
I started to write it but it's way to outing!
My father has died so my mother booked herself in to my town for three nights. I've had them on an information diet for years and Covid was a real blessing for visit management but her talking to neighbours & friends seems like an intrusion into my world. And I've had to deal with the aftermath of 'your mum is coping well/ very lovely'

She didn't mention my DP of 30 years or my kids names in the formal eulogy but wants in on our lives. I feel uncomfortable, a bit like the previous posters parents suddenly bonding with an old school friends family.

Hi all I've been reading this thread for a few months it's been a great support. I posted a few months ago about the estrangement with my brother and his wife. They live very near and I see them ( moreso pretend I don't see them ) alot.
The falling out was over my child but it was more their behaviour afterwards that sealed the deal on our estrangement (think spreading rumours and hanging around outside my house to intimidate me) . Now most of this behaviour comes from his wife not him but I see it as him being just as guilty.
I just want to move on and forget about it but this behaviour is killing me. I feel like it will never stop. To top it all off my other siblings agreed with me and tried to talk to them to no avail.
So the dust has settled now and my siblings slip into our conversations oh I was talking to 'brother' or I met up with 'brother' .
It's just killing me that they've gotten away with all the pain they caused my family. I know I sound childish but how do you all deal with this when only you are estranged. It doesn't help when they are all telling you it doesn't surprise them and 'you know what they're like'.

Not posted for a while - all well in Monkey Towers due to NC on my part and LC on the part of Mr Monkey - but if anyone wants a laugh at my Narc mother in law The Hag, here goes:

MM and I are heading up to Scotland to see SIL - Hag’s other SIL and the divorced wife of Hag’s errant Golden Boy son who’s disappeared abandoning his kids, her grandchildren completely - in a couple of weeks.

MM : well, we’re off to Scotland to see X in a couple of weeks.
hag: who’s we?
MM: me and Monkey
(WHO THE FUCK ELSE WOULD IT BE?)
Hag: sniff. You’re not taking your own mother? (THE IDEA)

over the years, Hag has avoided contact with SIL and her sons despite them being abandoned by Golden Boy and, well, they’re family. Family, especially a normal one, is to be criticised or ignored at all times.

MM has encouraged Hag to phone, to visit. Hag not interested. Power games with DIL. Now she wants to go. She’s NOT going. Christ, the idea.

MM says nothing.

I was laughing in the kitchen. She’s BATSHIT.

Slave Son phones later. He only rings when he’s being played. He’s being played.

SS: so, what’s this about SIL and a fella.

nothing was said about SIL’s partner of now 8 years in any conversations today or recently.

Hag and Slave Son KNOW that SIL has a partner, it’s not hidden, it’s not a secret, but if Hag has selective hearing / memory and if she can stir some shit she will. She suddenly can’t remember partner’s name.

SIL made to sound like some scarlet woman. SHE IS DIVORCED. Fella’ like some player, despite him basically bringing up SIL’s sons.

Slave Son being manipulated to play the Hag’s games. He is such a DICK.

Hag is obviously seething that the two evil SILs will be together having fun. And that we took her sons away. Admittedly, SIL got the vile product of Hag’s narcissism but she took Hag’s boy away and can never be forgiven.

today, Hag - predictably - has moved into showering everyone with her largesse and it’s cheque time.

Hag: how much should I give the boys? Is £200 enough?
MM: no idea.
hag: what should I get DIL for her birthday
MM: no idea, sure a card will be fine.

silence.

@MonkeyfromManchester - great to hear from you! Glad all is well in Monkey World. I know it's wrong but I love The Hag updates and I bet I'm not the only one. Sounds like Mr M has really got the hang of it now. Hats off to both of you.

@Suaimhneas23 - all I can advise is that you continue to disengage. Your siblings are acting as flying monkeys, whether they realise it or not. The phrase "well you know what he's like" was also said to me about my Toxic Sister, but so what? It doesn't excuse the behaviour. Be clear about your boundaries. You might want to hold a hand up whenever your other siblings start talking about your brother and say "STOP, I don't want to hear it. I'm done with him and her and that's that. Now can we move on please."

@Sicario thank you. Yes, monkey world is GREAT. The Hag mostly makes me laugh at her ridiculous and transparent gameplaying. Once you spot i, all the pieces fall into place. Pennies drop with each interaction. Now seeing Slave Son as her flying monkey, attempting to draw MM back in, and the master of his own demise. MM’s therapy is painful but helping. I think if we were further away he would go NC. All thst is his choice, not mine to make him make a decision. I think LC is great for him.

we also have her latest attempts at enmeshing him by demanding he ring chemists etc for her. He refuses. She is perfectly capable. She is ENRAGED that he won’t be the other servant, lined up to replace Slave Son as he gets frailer. Yesterday was “you do nothing for me” “you don’t care about me” etc etc MM was just silent.

it dawned on me how much she dreads us having contact with SIL as stuff is emerging as to what a Bitch HAg was to SIL. Hence Hag fear about imminent visit and £££ to buy silence and compliance.

Also, today I was thinking how the Hag’s (not much repeated these days) proclamations all about the wonderful single mother that SIL was by bringing up her boys was actually pure narcissistic shit on the Hag’s part of wanting to open the floodgates of “just like you were, you were an amazing single mum” praise so she could bask in her deification.

Yes, mother of the year award to the nice Catholic mother who would flick through the yellow pages ‘looking up’ social services and telling MM that they were taking him away. A scared vulnerable little boy who had lost his dad at a young age. Slave son was complicit to this, he’d be in his late teens/early 20s joining in when it was his turn to search for orphanages. MM no longer has his brother on a pedestal as the man who’s given his life up for everyone else.

anyone who’s considering counselling, do it. It’s helped MM hugely.And this forum has been a place of safety for me.

Hag is pure evil. But 86 and counting…

@Suaimhneas23 as your siblings are aware of the situation they are not being helpful by bringing up your brother in conversation. Perhaps take a step back from spending time with your siblings. Just try it for a few weeks or a month. It could help you reset your boundaries with them after taking some time away.

@Sicario thanks for taking the time to reply, I honestly don't think they mean to do it, but it drives me mad to hear. Yes they all know they're wrong and a little bit unstable tbh, but it's like it's all swept under the carpet to be forgotten about.
I have come so far since my first post on this thread a few months ago. It felt like someone had died, I was inconsolable. But now it's just turned to anger, but this anger is directed at them and also a bit at my other siblings , as I know they never would have received the same treatment and it's like them still speaking to them is okaying this behaviour towards me while telling me yes it's awful.

I suppose I still have a way to go, but I find myself not really bothering to meet up or even call them cause I feel so betrayed, but a friend I've spoke to about the situation says not to cut myself off from my other siblings as that will be what they want.

@tonewbeginnings apart from one I'm particularly close to and see every few days (this one is very supportive and is being shunned by evil brother and his wife for this reason), I don't see them too often maybe a phone call once a week. I don't particularly want to see them atm but am I cutting off my whole family for this because they won't take sides for want of a better word?
It seems so childish but the situation is so serious it can never be resolved. My siblings are good people I think it's just the way my parents brought us up, not to get involved. Evil brother's wife has never liked our family and found ways to criticise and start trouble at every opportunity it almost feels like this was a excuse to get rid of me from my brother's life.

@Suaimhneas23 it is difficult when relationships with other family members are ok in comparison. I’ve been through some of this and it can feel drastic and isolating to reduce contact with them. Rather than going nc with them for me it helped to reduce contact a lot. I speak to my sister around once a month and see her for a day or two once a year. She is still caught up in my mothers and brothers drama so gets quite angry or miserable. The lower contact gave me more emotional and mental space. My sister is very similar, she tells me my brothers behaviour is awful but then plans a lot of things with him. He bullies her too and she accepts it as this is how it’s always been.

I don’t think your feelings are childish. It sounds like you’ve been through a lot with your brother and his wife so it’s natural to be triggered when they get mentioned.

@tonewbeginnings thanks for your reply... Your sister sounds just like my siblings, says its awful and yet meets up etc. I wonder sometimes do they say the same thing to my estranged brother.
I think going forward for my own sanity I will reduce contact as much as I can. I don't want to not speak to them all together but is seems so false when one day they're comforting me because brothers wife is harassing me, but the next, brother and wife is visiting their house for tea, now generally this doesn't happen too often as I said the family give a wide berth but this was the reality earlier this year.
I'm sorry to hear you too have difficult relationships with some family. Since all of this happened alot of people have told me about their own estrangements, I think it's alot more common than people realise.

I've been posting some of my favourite links on various threads here as sadly there are many of us with narcissistic parents in our lives. So I decided to collate the lot and am posting them below in case anyone finds them helpful -

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Toxic-Laws-Strategies-Protecting-Marriage/dp/B07YN5J5LX/ref=sr_1_1?crid=DZ190XGBGTE7&keywords=toxic+inlaws&qid=1692363054&s=books&sprefix=toxic+inlaws%2Cstripbooks%2C58&sr=1-1
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Emotional-Blackmail-People-Obligation-Manipulate/dp/0060928972/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=Dr.+Susan+Forward&qid=1692363424&s=audible&sr=1-2-catcorr
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mothers-Who-Cant-Love-Daughters/dp/0062204343
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/B01F2L1DMU/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2DECXYC5JQH01&keywords=emotionally+immature+parents&qid=1692363092&s=audible&sprefix=emotionally+immature+parents%2Caudible%2C60&sr=1-1
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Daughter-Detox-Recovering-Unloving-Reclaiming/dp/0692973974#:~:text=A%20self%2Dhelp%20book%20based,and%20building%20genuine%20self%2Desteem.
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Body-Keeps-Score-Takeaways-Analysis/dp/B017MTNYZE/ref=sr_1_4?crid=37KKA24351XIL&keywords=the+body+keeps+the+score&qid=1692363242&s=audible&sprefix=the+bo%2Caudible%2C68&sr=1-4
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pulling-Your-Strings-Wayne-Dyer/dp/0099454408

Thanks @Sicario

I recently heard through another family member how Toxic Sister is very stressed out doing Narc’s bidding (lots of unnecessary legal drama) and now having trouble sleeping and complaining about not spending enough time with her own children.

I actually feel relieved that I’m not entertaining this nonsense and can enjoy my life instead of fighting to be the favourite.

I love Dr Ramani and In Sight. They have taught me so much!

Ok, trying t make sense of Mr monkey’s latest revelation. His counselling is now exploring the things he’s angry about. The house has a bit of a cross atmosphere whilst he’s getting his head round everything. I’m ok with this. I’m reading upstairs.

Today it came out that his mother, the Hag, used to force him to play when he was a child, and, then when he was a young teen, to hang round with the psychopath of the same age who lived across the street. He was later imprisoned for violence and stalking. TheHag knew about the vicious violence experienced by MM, and he would be begging her not to make him hang round with this boy. On his knees. It happened all the time. Apart rom her being a Fucking psycho, is there something rooted in mental health that would be a cause of this?

Hello everyone, can I please repost something I posted in AIBU? People there don't seem to understand how narcissitic abuse works.

"Posting for traffic: I have no idea what to do next.

So I got contacted by my ExH that my DS's biological father has died this week, as told to him (ExH) by my biological brother.

I am NC with my entire biological family - my mother is a classic narcissist and my brother was the golden child; a few years ago (6 blissful ones of peace) I decided that enough was enough and I cut them out of my life after they had made my life and any accomplishment in it hell for over 30 years. My brother has developed into typical flying money doing her every bidding and believing her every word, and since I got divorced, the bitch has managed to reel my ExH back in, too, at least into contact (we live abroad; I partially moved countries to get away from her, it was that bad - ExH saw the impact at the time and agreed, but his hatred of me when I left the abusive marriage clearly changed all that). The kids are being forced to email regularly by him, even though they have zero interest in maintaining contact.

He has now taken my kids on holiday to my home country; he visits this often, but I have the strange feeling that this time he will actually take them to my mother's. My kids are 6 and 16, so old enough to know some bits, but not the whole story, but they don't know her. My ExH used to hate my mother due to her many manipulation attempts on my eldest before I cut contact.

When I was pregnant with my eldest, I first got convonced to keep him by his biological father, then later on left for another woman when it was way too late into the pregnancy. I was made homeless by him and his friends (we lived in a flat share) while pregnant and he behaved repulsively. He didn't take any responsibility for his child, was never on the birth cert and never paid maintenance, bearing in mind I raised my eldest to 16 without his help and had my ex husband adopt him after a while.

Turns out my mother was in contact with my biological ex after I went NC with her (while I was in contact she encouraged me to block him out of my life). He'd post some shit about missing him on SM and she'd respond compassionately.

I'm not even sure him dying is true; I can't seem to find very recent records online and his family have previously lied about another family member of mine being on their death bed.

This man was abusive, alcoholic, drug-abusing and died of liver failure, if indeed he did. My ex is abusive, my mother a narcissist. I am surrouded by flying monkeys from my family and every time I think I have a hit of piece some other shite comes to light or I get some message like that.

Don't get me wrong, if he is indeed dead that's only good news; I have always tried to keep my son away from their circle of norms and even though I have been open about my son's origins, he never wanted anything to do with his biological father.

But I am so shaken.

If it's true, it's just another excuse for my mother to play the family card and get my ExH to be back in full contact with my kids (and ultimately to get back at me).

If it's not, my brother has clearly either fabricated or believed a lie that will encourage people to mess up what is now a lovely, stable life for him.

I am worries, stressed out of my mind and have no idea how to protect my children and indeed me from these people.

Please, anyone, help?"

@Whatheactualfuck I would move and tell no one where I had gone.

Can't do that. My mother shouldn't know where I live as I haven't told her, but since ExH has been in contact with her I'm sure she has my address anyway. ExH stays in the picture, at least until the kids are grown up.

Much better today, though.