April 2023 -"Well we took you to Stately Homes"

@Twatalert What you’ve written about the way your niece is treated by her parents is heartbreaking. I feel very sad for her.

This thread helps me feel less alone, and is helping me see very similar patterns of abusive behaviour that I also experienced earlier in my life. A strongly worded attempt has been made to guilt trip me into changing my mind but I could recognise it for what it was and was determined not to feel guilty.

@flapjackfairy @FreeIn23

Thanks both. I feel heard. It's heartbreaking watching her grow up like this. I grew up the same and can't understand why my aunt's and uncles didn't care. I always wished that one aunt in particular would come and rescue me. Or at least be there for me. Didn't happen. I had nobody. Not a soul in this world.

I'll make sure my niece has me. Always. Yes, I'll validate her feelings and build her up. Show her something other than the dysfunction and maybe in 10-20 years she won't be completely in the dark as to how to things could be different from what she experienced growing up. My girl. I love her so much.

She's sick and can't sleep and has messaged me. I'm in full auntie mode tonight. I'll shower her with attention and affection. It will never be too much.

Hello to everyone and new folks who’ve joined. This place is an absolute lifeline for me and I’ve learned so much. For everyone on the journey of dealing with our toxic families, I’m sending virtual hugs.

Things have been quite quiet on The Hag front (vile 86 year abusive MIL). The usual moaning and spite. I ducked out of a Mr Monkey family meal on Easter Monday for my sanity’s sake.

Mr Monkey’s blood pressure is through the roof which nearly meant hospital pre-Easter. She obviously didn’t give a Fucking fuck as she didn’t change her behaviour, but we had lots of caring nice Catholic mother. This is hilarious (not really) as it will switch from screaming to caring so much as “I am your mother, you know”

Sunday afternoon was a laugh as she phoned Mr Monkey as Slave Son (MM’s disabled retired brother) hadn’t phoned her as expected at the designated time. He has two timeslots every day where he must ring her and/or receive her call. The dick allows this to happen. On Sunday, he didn’t play the afternoon phone game, cue Hag call to Mr Monkey which involved screaming and shouting. “You don’t care about your brother”, “I’m his mother” etc etc etc.

MM is better at telling her he’s going to put the phone down if she continues the abuse which he now repeats to her like a stuck record until she shuts the fuck up. I think he needs to just put the phone down, but this is at the moment a bridge too far. I don’t doubt this is on the horizon and I reckon he will get there.

Mr Monkey rings brother who was simply having a sleep after the pub, MM rings Hag back to tell her this, Hag THEN wants MM to ring SS to say she’s going to ring him. MM refuses, but it’s another indication of how she wants everyone enmeshed in her ridiculous drama. She’s like an over-dramatic 15 year old.

Tomorrow, MM has to go round to her lair to interpret a phone call from a specialist as the Hag doesn’t ‘understand’. Sorry, I mean she refuses to take responsibility and prefers a drama. She’s selective in what she understands and what she doesn’t, the same with her hearing. He’s not looking forward to it, and has to ring her later today to remind her about the call where this game will be played out. MM now she’s all the games perfectly clearly.

We’ve been out this morning and we called in at the supermarket on the way home. It’s supermarket day for Hag and Slave Son. Pre-Covid this was a DAILY occurrence where she screamed at Slave Son in various supermarkets in Manchester for 40 minutes and the dick took it.

Now it’s down to twice a week with the same level of shit. We pushed Slave Son to make this change.

So, anyway, she’s there pushing her trolly to the cash tills. We are literally hiding down aisles to avoid her.

Sadly, we can’t, although we’re using self-service FAST, throwing stuff into bags to get the fuck out of there before we’re spotted.

No such luck as she comes over.

She’s looking shit (good). I’ve not seen her apart from three hours on Xmas Day as she wrecks every Xmas.

I do resting bitch face and my faux smile and I don’t say hello as I can’t pretend any more, nor am I arsed and what’s she going to do? Denounce me to MM? She barely speaks to MM as she doesn’t want an audience. Me. I think the short conversation is designed to wound us terribly. We depart, not before me clocking the hilarious sight of her chatting to a homeless person as part of the Good Catholic cos-play.

She is completely evil, but I really feel that both Mr Monkey and I have come so far in our dealings with her.

@MonkeyfromManchester - you'd think these people would run out of steam eventually, wouldn't you? But no. They're like little nuclear fission plants that release endless toxic bile.

Congratulations on becoming The Hag's arch nemesis. Seeing you in the flesh must have been like having a dozen new plutonium-enriched rods shoved in her reactor. high five

Thanks @Sicario that’s absolutely it, she’s clinging on for dear life; yes, as you say, the toxic bile IS her fuel. She must absolutely hate seeing me as I’m the embodiment of having a good life and I’ve empowered MM to have a good life, too. It’s a fight to the death. Lol.

MM is in for it tomorrow as we very obviously made a run for it from Tesco. It was hilarious.

Thanks @AttilaTheMeerkat, thank goodness for this thread too. It is all really difficult to get my head around.

Hello Stately Home Escapees,

I have been watching this thread for a long time. Older child is in their 20's and I found the thread way back then. I stopped Mumsnetting for a while. Younger child is mid teens. Recently concluded I definitely have, as @AttilaTheMeerkat would say, "disordered of thinking parents" (actually probably new that after child 1 was born), increasingly cemented through child 2 arrival. Obviously been in denial. The rose tinted glasses about a respectable upbringing with good parents fell off after an incident back in January. Now I can't unsee.

At some point I picked up the Karyl McBride book (probably after a recommendation on here), I find Pete Walker very good too. I've done more work with the McBride content. Working my way to very low contact and I could definitely go no contact in future. I have lots to work through. I'm increasing the boundaries gradually. This is for my benefit as I have been advised not to do this to quickly for my own wellbeing. Reverse graded exposure if you like. I think I'm dealing with lots of anger and grief right now.

My biggest trauma flashback at the moment is managing the 'phonecall'. Those of us from the 'we are good people training school' I know I attended unwittingly most of my life aren't let off the hook easily. I'm waiting for three things to be mentioned. One is the restricted contact, one is the incident where I stood up for something they didn't agree with and the other is an event at the end of the year they are probably expecting an invite to that I don't want them attending. Do I actually need to tell them I'm restricting their access to me or why? I've taken a couple of steps and they either haven't noticed or are choosing not to comment. The phonecall one will be obvious though. And I fear how I will cope with their response. The FOG is thick but clearing in patches.

I thought I would share where I'm at. Being seen here and posting what I think - this is a huge deal for me. Usually I stay invisible but in lots of areas of my life that isn't an option anymore.

Thoughts and suggestions welcome. Hoping in time I'll get a bit braver.

I'm waiting for three things to be mentioned. One is the restricted contact, one is the incident where I stood up for something they didn't agree with and the other is an event at the end of the year they are probably expecting an invite to that I don't want them attending. Do I actually need to tell them I'm restricting their access to me or why?

I wouldn’t volunteer but would have a v simple vanilla responses ready for each - which are non emotional and short statements of fact / decision that are not up for debate / discussion / explaining or justifying.

The technique is rinse and repeat (x2) in a dull flat tone, not to get drawn into any further details than the ones you have given - sit out the silence or the eruption - then you take charge and end the call politely and calmly.

The point is that you know their MO but you will not get drawn in - your boundaries are:

1. The limited info you give on rinse and repeat (x2).

1. The refusal to get drawn in or derailed by any escalation of emotion (either the silence or the eruption).

1. Taking charge to end the call politely and calmly.

Write out what you need to say. Write out what you won’t say. Keep it within reach.

Practice aloud in a calm, clear voice. Read it out when they call.

Lots of deep breaths before you answer the phone. Keep grounded and centred. Keep it short.

@Ooolaaaala that feels like a very calm and measured way to deal with phonecalls. I hadn't considered scripting what I say. Thank you

New poster on this thread. I thought it was just about the parent/child relationship. I didn't realise it included sibling relationships as well.

I have two questions:

1. Those of you who have had therapy/counselling- was this on the NHS or privately?
2. If you are LC/NC with siblings how on earth do you manage with parents growing older and when they die (apologies for being morbid)? My parents are thankfully extremely healthy but they are early 70s so at some point these issues will come and at the moment, I don't feel that I can even be on the same room as my sibling let alone communicate, which obviously isn't at all helpful for this situation.

@HatchlingDragon I second all the advice given by @Ooolaaaala . You really don't have to explain yourself. Be prepared for the toxic behaviour to ramp up once you start exerting your boundaries and standing firm. Take a deep breath. Do not get drawn in. Do not "take the bait".

@BlackLambAndGreyFalcon I have a highly toxic sister. I went NC with my entire FOO (family of origin) years ago which included 2 brothers and 1 mother. Going NC with the whole FOO was the only way to break the cycle as Toxic Sister made (and still makes) everything a nightmare.

So I guess it depends upon whether you want to preserve a relationship with your parents, or if they are going to become collateral damage.

@BlackLambAndGreyFalcon Hi, nice to meet another new poster. I know from reading these threads there are plenty of people with experience with siblings and elderly care with difficult, abusive situations. I'm sure someone will share more useful info. I'm a similar stage.

Therapy wise for previous mental health issues I've had CBT and then talking therapy through a work assistance scheme. Once through my own employer and another time my husband's employer offered a employee assistance/health cover for all of us. Cost of living and overheads have cut those to just advice lines mainly for immediate situations. In my area it's sooo expensive. No idea how people afford it. £125 a session for 45 minutes. No wonder the NHS waiting list is so long.

Hello all. Long time lurker here. Realised in Feb through therapy that my mum is a vulnerable narc and feel like the scales have fallen from my eyes. I now see everything differently and far more clearly. I'm taking a break from her and realised how much better I feel. Had some angry emails both from her and my father. More recently she's stopped being angry and (predictably) turned to being a victim. Her latest one (this eve) which asks me to visit for a chat says 'I'm at a total loss as to what this is all about.' In other words, 'I have no idea what YOUR problem is.'

I've said I'm not ready to chat and don't know if or when I will be, and that I won't be coming over. I just know that trying to have a conversation about any of this will be entirely pointless because she takes absolutely no responsibility for anything.

@Sicario I've certainly been observing myself on calls with them. Realised I start accelerated chat mode. Must stop as that is the reel winding the bait in. Did you get a ramping up of toxicity before going NC or had you NC to stop them doing the ramping up?

The toxic dynamic in my case was very deeply enmeshed and I'd put up with it for years. My mother was horribly abusive throughout my childhood (violent, highly critical, obviously a very angry woman who hated her life). I was beaten a lot by her, also hit daily by my brothers who are older than me.

Toxic sister, clearly a "surprise baby", had none of the abuse and was treated very differently. She was a kid (11 or 12) when I left home at 17.

It took me years to see that Toxic Sister is a jealous, manipulative, histrionic narc. I'm sure it's a personality disorder. She doesn't work because she upsets people very quickly. Her DH is her enabler. I have never known people fall out with others like they do. They made a career out of slagging me off. The more successful I became, the worse their behaviour towards me.

It dawned on me that she and my mother were cut from the same cloth.

I didn't plan on going NC. It just happened one day. I popped over to my mother's house unexpectedly. Toxic Sister was there, got all flustered and fled the house. Had obviously been saying horrible things about me. I just stood up and said, "I'm sick to death of being slagged off and I'm not doing this any more." Then walked out. I didn't even say it loudly.

That was the last time I saw or spoke to any of my family.

Toxic behaviour then ramped up to nuclear levels. It's the way they operate.

Welcome to the Stately Mansion, @HatchlingDragon , @BlackLambAndGreyFalcon , and @Freezingcoldturkey .

Re phone calls with toxic parents--do you even need to phone them? I reached a point where I just couldn't phone my mother anymore because each time I just felt like a sitting duck for her abuse, no matter how hard I tried to grey rock.

There's no law that you have to talk to your family members on the phone. I prefer email, because then I'm not on the spot. I can think my response through more carefully, and the written form gives them less opportunity for shenanigans because at least in written form you'll have actual proof if they get verbally abusive or threatening.

Anyway, however you choose to go, good luck! I wish you strength and healing.

I see a therapist privately. She charges affordable rates and it's really helping.

Hi guys,
Been away for a bit, I hope you are all hanging in there.

I am no contact with my dad (abusive narc, ruined my wedding) and v low contact with mum.

Dad has sent me a letter (I didn't give him my address) saying he is coming on a set date / set time to see his DC, who he has met once for a few mins. No invite, no checking if we are free.

I feel scared, anxious, horrible. Obviously I do not want him anywhere near us. I have never had a specific conversation with him to say that I do no want contact but we haven't had a relationship for almost a decade. I thought it was obvious. I know he has no legal rights to see his grand child.

DH thinks I need to spell it out that it's no contact and give him a very brief, factual, emotionless explanation. The alternative is I write to him and say we are away. I am worried he will turn up anyway.

Honestly I don't know what to do. I am pregnant and don't need this stress

I agree with your DH.

Write to him in an emotionless, factual, brief and simple way.

Tell him you don’t want any contact further with him and he is not to turn up to your home.

You have no obligation to justify, defend or explain your decision to anyone. It’s a waste of your breath and finite emotional resources to engage with him - you know that as it will escalate as he becomes entrenched and it gives him an opportunity to bully and oppress you.

Know that once you ask someone to stop contacting you - if they do so two more times it legally constitutes harassment - you can decide to inform him of this fact and the consequences of him not respecting your personal boundaries will be you involving the police.

I would get a ring doorbell and expect him to kick off - but I would not engage.

Its important that you feel in control and safe especially during your pregnancy when you are emotionally vulnerable. Your baby doesn’t need to be swamped in cortisol and adrenaline when you are anxious.

Do everything you can to keep your body and mind calm and detached from him.

Can I ask what you say/have said when your asks why you're not seeing them or speaking to them? My mother is saying she has no idea what's going on and I could do with some ideas of how to respond. I'm reluctant to actually tell her, (a) because I have no faith she'll get it and (b) because I think it will make everything worse!

Would love some thoughts from you lot, thanks

None of us owe anybody an explanation.
Your life. Your choice. Your business.
And nobody goes No Contact with family without good reason.

@winningeasy I agree that your father needs to be sent a clear and explicit message:

"I do not want a relationship with you. I did not share my address with you. I don't want you anywhere near me or my family. Do not contact me again."

If he turns up on your doorstep do not answer the door. If absolutely necessary because he won't go away, your DH can open the door and tell him to get lost.

Bin anything else that comes through the post without opening it.

With regard to sending the above message, you could get your DH to send it then block the number on his phone. Or send it through a service like Moonpig so you don't have to physically write anything.

And I'm so sorry you've had to deal with this. I know how triggering it is to have something like that come through the post.

@HatchlingDragon after years of upset and distress by carrying out the weekly duty phonecall to disordered parents I aged 50 stopped it. I just stopped doing my regular Sunday phonecall,I gave no explanation and no questions or comments were ever made. Fuck me it's been liberating no longer am I criticised,berated and triggered and end up snapping at my own family,,crying and feeling guilty.

They still phone about once a month and very occasionally about once every six weeks if I feel like it I will ring.

Try stopping it,a crazy thought for us obedient,good daughter's but crikey life on the other side no duty phonecall is much lighter, good luck x

Thank you very much for advice @Ooolaaaala and @Sicario - I have crafted something and will decide this i weekend how to send it to him.

I feel just so low since I opened his card. I have fought so hard to get away from these people and they still haunt me. I wonder if I will ever get peace from them.

I just cannot fathom how entitled it is to say you're going to rock up, on a week day too, I mean we both work and my DC goes to nursery/sleeps at certain times, he just expects us to roll out the red carpet and drop all our plans to see him? Sit around and play happy families after he basically ignored me at my own wedding? Is he on crack?

@SarahC50 that is exactly it - the duty weekly phonecall. The veiled spite if I don't do it and the set pattern when I do. I think I'm dealing with covert narc tendencies from both of them. No direct abuse but really really draining.

Thank for your thoughtfulness @briarhill.
No law to say you have to phone but people of the 'we are good people training school' have it indoctrinated. So hard to break the habit - painful whether you do or don't. Would like to get to the lighter feeling @SarahC50 talks about.