April 2023 -"Well we took you to Stately Homes"

@grizzletopsy the reality is that lack of meaningful contact is all a NM can get in order for us to survive. And it's still draining. What to respond to that message? Anything as superficial as posible, like you are busy, don't feel like meeting up or don't even respond. I would advice not to tell her the truth as she will go on an emotional rollcoaster and will try to drag anyone with her.

As my DH says it doesn't matter what your response is, as long as you don't internally feel affected by it.

Also think no response is the right one. Ever. So whenever you respond to her (or don't respond) do it knowing its the best one for YOU and not her. Best of luck x

Thanks @ @CityortheBurbs Half of me thinks "Fuck them, I don't need them in my life" but I also have a great sense of injustice.
I can just imagine them at the funeral saying "Oh Rachael couldn't be bothered to come or even send flowers".

I don't have any of their phone numbers and they're not on SM so my only contact is with a female cousin (the daughter of person who has just died). I thought about sending her a card and saying sorry I wasn't able to pay my respects as nobody told me and btw is there any reason I'm ignored. I think she told a cousin in my hometown and probably expected her to tell everyone else. At least it would let her know and make me feel that I've done all I can and it won't eat away at me for the rest of my life.

I haven’t posted for a year or so but things are getting on top of me lately. I have kept my critical mother at bay (telling her little and so on) but lately she has begun to criticise my ds and I suppose it’s all come to surface again (from aged ten is when I noticed her crush me and make me insecure)

ds is now that age - it’s all done in jest and I know I’m over sensitive but I haven’t asked her to care for the dc lately (literally only ask a sleepover once every couple of months)

anyway I have recently had some really good news and she’s the only one who hasn’t acknowledged it in anyway even asking with a critical tone why have people sent cards ??? Then she texts blunt messages but not asking how I am or anything personal so I haven’t either (now a message has come through what’s wrong? Why hasn’t she heard from me?)
I don’t know why I can’t do it at the moment

What hurts is she tells me ‘great news’ about random peoples daughters (one of whom is a cousin of my father who has a daughter my mother claims is so successful and nice) yet their marriage broke up three years ago and no one told my parents (rightly so - it’s personal) but my mother claims they are so close and yet they are not !!

Thank you for this. Yes, I think she might finally be noticing that I've gone VLC and this is what it looks like for her. Her message is positioned as if I'm the problem and am inconveniencing her, and am being overly dramatic.

I've decided that I'm not going to respond at all although what I'd like to say in relation to the 'lack of meaningful contact' is, 'no idea, it's been going on for years!'

having spent a full day away yesterday and not having seen the parents today, my mind did its usual flip to "it's not that bad, all families are weird".

We came back late today, a bit late for dinner time (they knew we were visiting friends tonight), and got the silent treatment and a fair bit of hostility - typically, no responses to questions, no eye contact, angry faces etc. Of we are here, we are in the way, if we are not, we re not available / the DCs are not available. lt s a no won situation.

My DH was awkward and in the way, not in ally mode, but trying to diffuse the situation in a fairly meek way, implying we were wrong. All my joy of the last 1.5 days has evaporated, despite meeting friends' two (very) new babies and enjoying the company of adults (and their normal parents) who do not think i am a waste of space.

I have a fairly high responsibility job, am very senior in my field, yet feel like i am bringing shame and embarassement on the family, much like the neighbours kid who still deal drugs from their childhood bedroom. I am not sure why i still crave the acknowledgement, i should know better than need external validation.

@grizzletopsy - i recognise the accusations of being "overly dramatic"

it's apparently what i do too
I "see problems where there are none"

@grizzletopsy well done. A no response is the best response. And that way she cant come back to you with more hurtful stuff.

@CityortheBurbs I could have written every single word in your last post. Your parents were angry not because you were late, but because they are simply not happy. I have to remember this all the time myself. Its just not posible to win whatever you do/ not do/ you say.
It's a mental torture.
And I also feel hurt with the fact my parents have zero interest in what I'm doing. I have an interesting job and I didn't do badly since I left my home country 20 years ago.
For some reason it just hurts. I think is because is unnatural that your own parents don't want to hear about your own achievements.

Please don't let them get at you. You had a lovely time with your friends. That is all that matters. Only real relationships matter. Mind yourself x

Hi everyone,
Hope you don’t mind me joining? I am a long time lurker, never felt able to post before, afraid of any negative responses I suppose but I need some advice.

Im late thirties, married to a wonderful man and two fantastic kids, on that front I’m so blessed and feel very lucky. I’ve recently finished up counselling that went on for 3 years. I found therapy to be the most enlightening and freeing thing I’ve ever engaged in but also the most painful thing I’ve ever done. During therapy my therapist had to tell me my childhood was very abusive, I was shocked that the therapist used that word and it upset me so much. But she was right.

Im the scapegoat, my younger sister is the golden child, my mother is a covert narc and father a weak enabler. Without boring you all with the details, the gist of it is that my childhood involved physical and emotional abuse by both parents and some sexual abuse by a non family member. All of this left me as an adult suffering from very bad anxiety with no help or support from home. Growing up I was so angry and frustrated at the obvious treatment differences between my sister and I, I still carry some of that anger today. When I look at my two wonderful kids today I sincerely cannot image hurting them in the ways I’ve been hurt, it sickens me tbh.

During my therapy I told my parents how they treated me and the impacts it’s had, this isn’t new information to them, I’ve told them since I was 6 years old how my sis was treated better etc but it was always “in my head”. Like all of you, I have hundreds of examples of the abuse. I didn’t speak to them for about 8 months, blocked them but they would turn up places where my kids were, I was gaslit and love bombed. The flying monkeys started in the form of my sis, it was an awful time. I thought I was on the verge of a breakdown for months, (my anxiety was through the roof and my therapist mentioned C PTSD) but i ploughed on (my husband was like an angel throughout this time, couldn’t have done it without him). Now I have v strict boundaries with my parents and a fake, insincere rship with my sis (and parents) but we speak.

Now, to the point of why I’m writing, I feel the person I am at the end of all the therapy and the reading and research is strong and enlightened (sound mad saying that but you get me, I hope!) but drained. I’ve cut a number of people from my life in recent years, “friends” that have treated me badly, a crazy cousin I was forced to spend time with because my mother ADORED her (that’s a whole other story) and now my oldest childhood friend. This girl has hurt me a lot over the years (her childhood was worse than mine but she hasn’t realised this) she carries a lot of anger and hurt in her but I feel she takes it out on me. She lives in another country but rarely thanks me for any bday gifts or baby gifts and, if she does, it’s many days or even a couple of weeks after receiving them. This hurts me. I feel less than when she does this. I’ve listened to her when she shares her anxieties and tbf to her, she listens to me but it’s her cold treatment of me that hurts. But my question is, do I have a right to feel this way? I feel like stepping further back from her as she’s hurting me but how many more people do I cut from life? Because of my trauma I feel I am damaged now in some way, my filter for friendships and what is acceptable is clearly off. I feel I’ve had a lifetime of being surrounded by people who are mad but now I’m older I just don’t tolerate the crazy. Is it possible that I have a lot of damaged people around me? Maybe I’m being too demanding of people? I don’t know, it’s very confusing, I don’t even know if what I’m saying makes sense. I appreciate any of you who have read this far, thanks x

Thanks so much for your insight, Attila. Down through the years I have found your advice so helpful and reassuring and today is no different. I agree with all you have written, I just need to somehow get it to resonate with me so that I act with a bit more self respect (or something 🙈) thanks x

I should have been clearer about my rship with them. I'm now viewed by my family as someone who is "fragile" and "takes things too seriously" and because I stopped things like Xmas and didn't contact them at bdays or other holidays they are now nervous of upsetting me. They don't like that I hold down a successful career, my mom is jealous of this.

I'm under no illusion with them, and who they are. I understand they have some sort of mental illness or personality disorder, or whatever, but they can't be trusted in any form. The only thing they understand is toxicity and negativity. It's horrible to say but, for the moment, they only treat me with "respect" (the fake kind) because they know I'll cut them out again if needed.

Why do I keep them in my life, albeit, at a distance? Because, at the moment, I need to have even a surface rship as it's easier for me. Sounds selfish, I know, but it makes my life easier. I have spent years trying to emotionally detach from them, it's still not complete, but it's much, much better. Their actions and words don't sting like they used, party because they "behave" but also because I think of them as mental. We live in the same area and bumping into them is a constant risk. I love my house and my kids love their school so moving isn't an option.

I view them as sad, miserable people who are riddled with negativity and jealousy. My kids are never left alone with them, ever (they used to childmind for me etc but I stopped this 2 years ago). My time with them is very limited and surface level and I agree with the idea that if they're too deranged for me the same goes for me kids. I've spent, and continue to spend, time working with my kids on appropriate behaviour and they know (a child appropriate amount) about my rship with my parents. I don't know what the future holds with regards to them but I won't be tolerating their shit again. Thanks again for your insight.

@junebugalice first of all welcome to this group. In a very strange way your post brought some comfort to me as that is exactly the way I feel.

My parents don't won't to know about my career or interests, zero interest from the very start. They talk over me if I try to explain anything i consider slightly interesting. I still find this very hurtful, as a child any attempt to show some interest in something was always dismissed or laugh at. I do not understand this at all, how my own mother feels jealous of my success in my work.

Sure what I want for my kids is to do BETTER than me, there is nothing that would make me more proud. But even if they don't have careers that's also good, I want them to be happy, independent and fulfilled.

It's twisted and exhausting. Unlike you I moved from my home country 20 years ago (as you might notice I'm not an English native speaker) and felt great freedom that dint want to give up. I started my career here, made amazing friends and met DH and had my children. So I only put up with my parents visits, it's easier. But I also chose to have a distant and superficial relationship.
I also protect my children for too much exposure.
My mother is over right now and it's an absolute nightmare. That's for another post.
Sending you love. You are not alone xx

Very similar my mum has never taken any interest in me ever I was really shocked to discover as a teenager that other peoples parents asked them about their day at school , took an interest in them and supported them in their activities . Mine likes to stop me doing things and if she couldn’t she sabotaged me or was so difficult about it I ended up giving up anyway (such as university) . If your child dropped out of a highly vocational university course to do a job washing dishes you would t be pleased would you, my parents were. Other peoples parents were shocked

Thank you for the welcome! @girlswillbegirls I’m sorry to hear that you can relate to my post but, like you, it brings me comfort to know others experience this shit.

Your first paragraph I can relate to word for word, unfortunately. I used to joke with my sis (before our now strained rship) that our mother hadn’t a clue about our jobs, all she knew was where we worked and that she could boast to her friends about it. I’m making myself out to have a very fancy job, I don’t! My parents grew up with very little and left school early, I was the first one in my extended family to go to university and this was fodder for her to boast about but also made her jealous of me. As you say, as a parent now, I only want great things for my kids and if university is for them, great and, if not, that’s great too.

The one thing I’ve learned on my journey (hate that phrase but it’s apt 😆) is the importance of mental health and internal happiness, it’s absolutely priceless. My family have neither of those things. Can I ask if you have siblings and what is your rship like? My sis and I “got on” but I feel I was always nice to her and she treated me like shit, don’t get me wrong, I was no angel but I do want to treat people right. She always tried to get me in trouble etc and knew she had my parents protection. Anyway, when I started my therapy she as so supportive, admitting she prob needed it too (she does). All was good for a while and one day she turned on me, raging I was “doing this” to our parents. The shock from this betrayal hurt more than I can explain and resulted in us not speaking for a while. She’s married to a guy who treats her like shit, she reads all the self help books, “knows” all about narcissism, knows about what I experienced as a child, but can not apply any of it to our childhood. I understand, as kids, we can have very different childhoods while under the same roof, but her initial acceptance of my therapy and then the switch is disturbing. I’m afraid she will repeat the cycle with her own child because she refuses to see the truth. I gave up a long time ago trying to make her see my point of view, never again will I do that.

anyway, apologies for the essay, you will be sorry you welcomed me 😂 I’m glad you have distance from your mother, geographically at least, they never get out of your head though, do they. I’m glad the superficial thing works for you too. Hope the visit is bearable, and feel free to unburden here, just like I did 🙈 Your English is excellent btw, I couldn’t tell it was your second language. Sending love and strength xx

@Shortbread49 its shocking when you discover that all families aren’t like yours, truly shocking. My mother was obsessed with a cousin of mine, she knew every detail about her life and I used to say to her how demented that was and how this level of interest was never reciprocated towards her own kids but she couldn’t understand and would just get angry. There’s nothing worse than being raised by a narc, the level of headfuckery is off the charts.

Yes they don’t understand do they and I have never successfully managed to explain anything to her , pointing out her behaviour is just met with anger and denial but sad when the need to be right is more important then your own children

@Shortbread49 I hear you. I have accepted that my mother does not see anything wrong and conveniently rewrites history in her favour. I stopped letting it mess with my mind years ago. My Sibling was the golden child but we have a great relationship. They know what she was like and call her out on it. I refused to let her drag me down. It took years but the family/friends I have now are so supportive, I feel more sorrow for her that she has missed out on a fab relationship with her child. She does not know me and never will. I grieved the loss of a normal mother/daughter relationship years ago. It truly does not phase me anymore.

In my mothers case she can’t handle the idea of her being an abusive parent, she just can’t process that information. I remember during an argument about 3 years ago, probably at the beginning of my therapy, when she told me via text to stop “being a victim because you’re not”, I said to her, “but you used to slap me and regularly call me a whore with a drinking problem” her response was to ignore what I said and asked, “do you want me to babysit at the weekend?”. Absolutely headwrecking and fucked up.

I was also called a scrubber and an alcoholic ! Didn’t drink until I was 18 or have sex until I was 21, no idea what she was based that on maybe she was thinking of her !!

Well at 16 I used to have a few sips of beer with friends and I did have boyfriend from a similar age, who I ended up being with for years. I was always a “good girl” who never got into any trouble with school or anybody but she would always shame me, especially for behaving in a way that was typical for teenagers. That shame is hard to shake, even in adulthood.

Having maintained a superficial minimal relationship with narc family members for the last ten years I finally took the step to no contact in the last 2 years. It was an extremely difficult step to take and there was an intense grieving period too (which I didn't expect). It feels very isolating and lonely to go through this but now that I am emerging out the other side of that grieving I feel empowered and strong. I wish I had done this earlier!

I may still run into these family members briefly at my mothers house when visiting but so far that has only happened once. We had a brief exchange of greetings which was fine without much anger or upset (on my part). It was like a polite exchange between two strangers not between siblings.

I appreciate how difficult it can be going no contact but I also think low contact brought me years of anxiety and stress for nothing. Something that helped me make the decision was that I had a difficult few years (my siblings knew about it) and chose to make it more difficult by gossiping about me, sending me mean messages disguised as 'jokes' and calling me to have a chat but would end up putting me down during the conversation (which was easy to do as I was at a low point).

At the back of my mind I had this idea that I am maintaining low contact just in case I have blown my experiences out of proportion and they would step up if I needed support. When they stepped in to make me feel worse when I was going through a bad time it was a wake up call. It had also happened in my younger years but I think I was in denial and pretending (or hoping) that my family was normal. Being older and having some distance because of the pandemic made things clearer for me.

If you're maintaining low contact, it might be worth asking yourself;

1. Is this person there for you in hard times?
2. Is this person celebrate your wins or good times?
3. Does this person give you space when you need it?
4. Does this person listen?
5. Does this person support you?
6. Do you feel loved by this person?
7. Does this person respect you?
8. Does this person respect your boundaries?

If the answer is 'no' to all of these then it may be worth thinking about what type of contact you have and why.

I felt like I was doing something wrong when I first went low contact with my family. Every time I was tempted to respond or reach out to my brothers these last two years, I journaled instead. I want to feel loved and supported so each time I was in contact there was an element of hope, followed by anger and sadness in the lack of love. The journaling helped remind me of why I am choosing to go no contact. Spending time alone helped too - long walks and time to think.

Sometimes I felt pushed out by my brothers (and their flying monkey families) and then lured back in with grand gestures - I recently learnt that this is a classic narc move. So, I felt like I was going low contact because of being pushed away. I am now no contact out of choice and this has changed my perspective of myself - as someone who respects, supports and advocates for themselves.

It can feel like a loss when going no contact but it's actually a way to make more space for good things.

Some Tuesday quotes:

"If you are going down a road and don't like what's in front of you and look behind you and don't like what you see, get off the road. Create a new path!" Maya Angelou

“I learned a long time ago, the wisest thing I can do is be on my own side.” Maya Angelou

"Invent your world. Surround yourself with people, color, sounds, and work that nourish you." Susan Ariel Rainbow Kennedy

Oh wow ladies, I am interested to read about your strategy to keep low, superficial and fake contact with your mothers.

I am arriving at the same conclusion. Simply because I think she'll start a smear campaign if I cut ties completely and I will lose access to my little niece. I realise she still has a hold over me with that, but I am doing it for my niece. I will not abandon her, I love her, and I want her to feel like that maybe she will have someone to turn to when she gets older and her home life may inevitably become too difficult. The girl has no chance to learn what a functional and loving family may look like, but I hope I can sometimes validate her feelings enough, build her up and maybe she will at least sometimes feel that she is loved and enough. She sees me as a grown up friend and tells me her secrets. I am hoping she feels she can talk to someone (me) about anything without fearing shame, putdowns and rejection.

I know it may or may not work. When I was a child all adults just pissed off and nobody cared about me and I am not going to be that to her.

Luckily I live in a totally different country from my parents, so don't have to navigate 'bumping into them' or them trying to visit me etc. But trust me, the duty phone calls are exhausting enough. I just ignore her now and just nod along. I used to spend years trying to call her out on her behaviour, especially when she did something to my niece, and then I worried every time how she would retaliate against my niece for it. So I figure it makes no difference for my niece whether or not I call her out, I just try to be there for her now. I know she deserves better but it's the best I can do given the circumstances.