April 2023 -"Well we took you to Stately Homes"

@AttilaTheMeerkat She is not yet 10.

I know it may not work and I won't be able to prevent emotional damage by the rest of the family. I won't be able to 'save' her either. I don't consider it a risk for myself. I try and that's all I can do. But I remember as a child I sometimes felt different, better, in some peoples company without understanding why. In hindsight, these people seemed kinder, more stable, not angry. I felt safer around them. And if she can sometimes feel that with me that will be enough. And I am not going to fuck off like everyone did with me because my parents were idiots.

I think she already sees me as a bit different and I know it may ebb and flow as she grows older. There is no guarantee she will want me in her life later on for whatever reason or not. She may get brain washed too much and get angry I didn't do more, who knows. It's besides the point. I don't expect anything from her. I am just giving it a chance out of love.

@junebugalice I have only one sister and she went NC many many years with everyone including our extended family. She was the golden child and still is (even going NC). She was in and out of my life and that affected me a lot but I feel better now.
My self steem has always being low and I am constantly looking for reassurance even as an adult (pathetic) and I am constantly trying to be the best at work, with friends etc. basically looking for approval. I am writing this knowing how stupid this is.
My mother refuses to believe my sister went NC because of her even though she was told so. She tries to convince herself it's nothing to do with her. And still adores her and compares me with her in any occasion.

I only go low contact because a. I feel sorry for my father even though he is an enabler still feel bad for him. b. I feel I have no choice, I'm the only one left for them. And believe me I would love to be the one going NC.
Also I do get the same as you that of my achievements are only worth for telling her friends or family members so normally are made up as she doesn't have a clue.

As @Twatalert said even though most of the year is only phone calls I find it exhausting.
Fair play to people here living near their mothers. That has ro be really really tough.

Sending you all love x

Sorry for the terribly long essay!

What book is this from please?

Long time lurker here, trying very hard to unravel everything in my head.

@girlswillbegirls im sorry to hear of your difficulties with your sister and that she is in the golden child position, I know how hard it is to live with that.

The rest of what you have said I can relate to, hugely. The seeking of approval, same here. I often feel great shame that I’m so pathetic. I want to always do the “right thing” and seek approval from people who shouldn’t matter. Although, through therapy I’ve become better at this but it doesn’t come naturally.

I used to also pity my dad, thinking he was my mothers victim too but therapy enlightened me on that issue so my view of him has changed irrevocably.

The grief I went through, during these realisations, was similar to an actual death I think. So incredibly painful to acknowledge the truth but it had to be done as my mental, and physical, health would have suffered even more.

Hi, never been on here before. I think I had a narcisstic mum, who was quite clingy and jealous, so I kept her at arms length (her words) over the last 40 years or so. She died about 5 years ago, nearly ninety. I now feel wracked with guilt as I was all she had (father had affairs during my entire childhood and left her after I left home) and I only visited her once a week for her last two years, she lived over an hour away. (And only about once every three weeks when she was younger and fitter)

I now have a therapist who is astounded at what I endured as a child, Eg my first memory aged 5 is my mum telling me to hide her pills incase she took them all, I still remember the fear in school every day waiting for the bell to ring so I could run home to see if she had found them in my toy box, and she was dead. Growing up, I was regularly slapped across the face if she was angry (she was angry a lot), occassionally hit with implements (even though I was a very good child), then afterwards she would ignore me completely for days, never speaking to me or looking at me, but banging around, slamming things, I was forced to share a bedroom with her when I was aged 8-18 (I then left home) as she would not sleep in the same room as my dad, but they occasionally had sex in the bed next to me and I pretended to be asleep, I wasnt allowed to call my dad "dad" (he wasn't much of a specimen anyway, alcoholic and out every single night), I wasnt even allowed to speak to him, wasnt allowed to be "pally", I heard throughout my life what an evil person he was, so I think I began to think I must also be 50% bad.

For her last 20 years, she was an extreme hoarder, and lived in chaos, I felt claustrophobic and smothered when visiting, which retrospectively I think might have been a reaction to feeling so claustrophobic and smothered growing up in that awful bedroom. That's just a taster, but my therapist seems to think I was justified in keeping her at a distance (we moved further waway, and I know she was distraught at seeing less of her grandchildren). The problem is, she was latterly a lonely, scared, mentally ill old lady (and she was also a lonely, scared mentally ill woman from the age of about 30 onwards, she had a terrible life and I feel so sad for her now) and I could have visited/helped her more but I found her hard to cope with, there was still underlying jealousy - I saw my awful father once a year for about 20 minutes for the sake of my children, and she hated that, would make a big issue of it. I tried to get her help for the hoarding but realise now that was just a symptom of an underlying mental health issue. She wasnt easy to help (wouldnt have carers in, wouldnt let me online shop for her). Many of my friends are now dealing with ageing mothers and they are so kind and understanding, I feel like a really awful person for never telling my mum she was special or that I loved her etc (she didnt tell me either, or ever praise me, in case I got "too confident"). I did once broach the subject of the physical violence (tbf it wasnt beatings, it was one whack across the face, and it was perhaps only a few times a year), but she said that I only "remember bad things", then went off and asked all my children if I had ever hit them. They all said no, but that I had once tapped my eldest on the top of his head with a remote control to get his attention, and she came back to me, almost delighted (vindicated?) with this news. That angered me more than anything else I think! Anyway, my therapist is trying to get me to feel angry rather than guilty (healthier emotion?) and I do feel some anger, but it is overwhelmed with the guilt.

I have read loads of books on trauma (Will i ever be good enough, Complex PTSD, the Body keeps the score, Adult children of emotionally immature parents) and all good but NONE of them address the guilt issue, which is what is slowly destroying my life. I didnt feel too guilty about her when she was alive (just frustrated and exasperated) but the guilt is stratospheric since she died, too late to address all the issues. I suspect she would not have welcomed any deep discussion, I suggested joint counselling once but she just said "I cant see why you cant just get on with me" - Like it was all my fault. It kind of was - I had everything, husband, family, nice home, good careers, good friends, hobbies, while she had nothing. Well, sorry this is so long, I am just hoping there might be someone out there who has gone through something similar, and could maybe give me some nuggets of wisdom about how to relieve myself of this guilt burden. Or a way to stop constantly comparing myself to friends who are so good to their ageing mothers. Thank you very much

Cornishpast - you’ve nothing to feel guilty about. You still visited her regularly even though she had treated you badly.

She didn’t care for you properly as a child, she could have made changes to live differently and treat you better but she didn’t.

You have nothing to feel guilty about that you made a better life for yourself- well done. You’ve done amazingly. Don’t be so hard on yourself.

@Cornishpast you are judging yourself harshly. It sounds like you cared for your mother the best way you could under the circumstances.

” Like it was all my fault. It kind of was - I had everything, husband, family, nice home, good careers, good friends, hobbies, while she had nothing. “

You have these things because you worked on yourself and made changes. We all have the choice to do this and your mother didn’t. It does sound like she had a tough life but so did you.

Maybe you need to understand why you feel guilty. It can come from societal and family expectations.

You mentioned how your friends are so good to their ageing mothers - perhaps these mothers were loving and supportive. Sometimes people are also grappling with their own issues with ageing parents but don’t want to share how difficult it is for fear of being judged too.

Losing a parent is also hard and maybe you’re also mourning the loss of wanting a caring mother. Wishing she was there for you and you could have been there for her in turn.

Well done for making a better life for yourself. I know it takes work. I recently visited my childhood home after a long time and I was in floods of tears as I sat at my old desk just thinking about my teenage self - how hopeless things felt and how scared I was - to my life now. All those incremental changes, therapy and people that came my way who helped me have compounded to a life I don’t think my teenage self would believe possible.

Try to remember how far you have come and maybe you will feel more compassionate towards yourself so that the guilt (which could be self judgement) goes.

@junebugalice thank you so much. I know you are 100 per cent right about my father and yet I try to see him as a victim, deep down I think is because otherwise its a lot harder to admit none of them are good parents. I should be as brave as you are and start a therapy but I know I will be all over the place once I start. It's going to bring a lot of bad memories, and I supposed I'm worried about the grief that is going to bring, but I do know is the right thing to do.

@Cornishpast I only feel anger myself and no guilt. Please think you did more than enough with your mother. You did have a terrible childhood and anyone else in your place wouldn't have visit her once leaving home. You couldn't have the relationship you see in friends because it's just not possible with a narcissist. Be kind to yourself xx

@girlswillbegirls the realisation, in my case anyway, that both parents failed me massively was unreal. It was an awful thing to discover. On the therapy front, I can’t tell you how helpful it was, it literally changed my life. My therapist did say that you need to be in the right frame of mind to do it so you can deal with, and process, the things you discuss.

I had bad anxiety, my whole life really, but it reached a peak in my early 20s, due to not getting any help from my parents (I asked, they dismissed me) I had no choice but to suppress it. For years I was so happy I had “conquered” my anxiety but I was deluding myself. A few years back, out of no where (it seemed) I had a panic attack. My body was literally screaming at me to pay attention, get help and address my issues. As a parent to v young kids at the time I couldn’t risk messing them up with my anxiety so I knew I had to start therapy. I found therapy v hard when we were talking about the abuse and the panic attacks did increase, for a time. However, I have never felt more mentally strong, I’m not cured of anxiety but i have it 90% under control. I’ve learnt to trust myself and I understand now that I’m not that vulnerable child with no options any more, I have control, so there is no need for me to panic.

if you do decide to go it could, potentially, be life changing for you like it was for me. Xx

@scroogemcfuckaduck. The honest letter approach never seems to work with narcissistic people. After a particularly tense weekend with my mother, I tried to put how I was feeling in a letter about my dysfunctional upbringing (having had my own children and realising I would never ever whack them across the face/beat them with tools/pull their hair/refuse to speak to them/deny them privacy etc). In it, I acknowledged she had done her best in very difficult circumstances and even said i loved her. It was never mentioned again and i knew if I'd asked about it, she would have said "what letter"? However, she was an extreme hoarder and threw absolutely NOTHING away, so when she died and I spent weeks clearing the house, I was hoping to find it. No letter. So the one useful thing we could have worked together on, she threw out. However, every single Post office postcard, junk mail, money off coupon from the previous 30+ years were all there, thousands of them. Weird.

Hi, there is a brilliant podcast called Insight - exposing the narcissistic. They read out listeners letters and offer advice. Your story (post) would be a great one to send in.

First time poster here looking for any advice regarding a narc' mother's upcoming birthday! In brief, fourteen years ago I tried to go NC having realised through short term therapy that my childhood was somewhat abusive (emotionally primarily, also physically) and that my mother could be quite cruel to me. However she made going NC pretty impossible (or at least I wasn't firm enough) due to her close relationship with my child, inc threats about taking legal action if she couldn't see them regularly (in hindsight I know this wouldn't have been possible). I have tried really hard to keep the peace, be friendly and include her in my life and my family, even though this has been at a cost to my own mental health. For a while things were ok.. then recently boundaries have been crossed at every turn, despite me politely asking for this not to happen.

Finally, a couple of months ago, in response to more boundary crossing / lack of empathy and a physically aggressive gesture from her (the first in some years) I snapped and said I couldn't continue this relationship and that I'd only been doing so for her (I later said, to soften the blow, that I need space for now but not necessarily forever). She was desperately upset. This time, my child has stopped responding to contact from her too, primarily out of loyalty to me, although I have said my relationship is not theirs and they can do as they wish.

There has been a fair amount of hoovering / gift sending which has recently desisted. My conundrum now is concerning her upcoming birthday. I don't want to send a card as I feel this sends the wrong message - that I want to be in touch again. And yet that couldn't be further from the truth. I feel like a huge weight has been lifted having this period of no contact (bar hoovering).

That said, the guilt I would feel not sending a card is overwhelming. I am an only child with few family members and I know she will be extremely hurt and upset, and I really don't want to be hurtful. I also know that if we do resume contact in the future, I'll never hear the end of the missed birthday!

Like I'm sure many of you feel, it often feels like it's me or my mother. As in if I put myself first I'll break her heart, but if I put her first I'll only live half a life.

I'd love to hear any of your thoughts.

@Hattie777 hi Hattie, I’m not sure if it’s me you’re referring to but I totally agree about that podcast, love it! It’s very satisfying the way they get angry on behalf of the letter writer! Do you know if there is an episode where they talk about their own childhoods and what led them to start the podcast?

Hi @drinkingteaslowly im clearly not an expert on narcissism and I only have my own experiences to go on but I can relate to a lot of what you have said. What I find with people with this condition is that they are unable to respect boundaries of any kind and to someone without this condition, like you and me (and everyone on this page) it’s hard for us to fathom. I think by putting our expectations, and how we would react in a similar situation doesn’t help. My therapist likened my mother to a rapid dog (sounds awful but it made sense!), if you get too close she will always hurt you, it’s in her nature. She advised a lot of caution when being in her company. I tell her nothing of importance, just nod along, she could tell me the world was ending and I’d still be nodding.

I was in your situation with the card and I chose not to send it. It felt too disingenuous to me, and we weren’t speaking at the time so that helped. I totally understand that it helps some people to send the card. As time wore on for me I understood that my mother has made poor choices and these are the natural consequences. Luckily my therapist had experience of a narcissist mother so I found her advice helpful.

you mention that you’re worried you will break her heart, that’s because you’re a nice person. I don’t think people like that have a heart to break tbh. Wishing you all the best x

Ah I’m familiar with this conundrum, I would say an e-voucher for a sensible shop like a M&S or John Lewis would be appropriate.

@junebugalice Thank you so much for your thoughtful response and sharing your experience. I absolutely fall into the trap of putting myself in her shoes when, as you say, our reactions are likely very different. And the description of the rabid dog makes so much sense. Silly me went from being cautious for years to gradually letting my guard down and got bitten - aargh!

I will think some more on the card but not wanting to feel disingenuous sounds very apt. I think having a parent for whom the truth is slippery can make honesty all the more valuable so I don’t want to be insincere.

Thank you again x

@Snoozinandlosin Thank you for your response. I don't wish anyone this conundrum and at the same time I'm glad to hear others' experiences! Yes, I can see how this could tick the box and be less personal than a card. Thank you x

From my own point of view, no contact means just that, no matter how it might make me feel to hold that line. Perhaps I'm lucky that I've never felt an iota of guilt about the birthdays/mother's days/Christmases that I've missed; she has shown no insight or remorse for her behaviour.

@Frontroomroomjungle Your words really chimed with me this morning! I'm so fed up with feeling guilty and wasting a lot of precious time worrying (obsessing) about how my mother will feel, if she's sad etc. And yet she too has shown no insight or remorse for some shocking recent behaviour. I need to get some therapy and I have decided not to send a birthday card.

Thank you @tonewbeginnings I am sorry you too had a hard time as a teenager, and well done for your success in life. I think I feel guilty all the time now shes dead because it was the only emotion apart from anxiety that I ever felt around her, and its my go -to emotion whenever I think of her (all the time)

@girlswillbegirls thank you for your reassuring reply. Its good to hear that I'm not in the wrong, I think that's where counselling has helped me, I didn't really believe my therapist at first when I told her about my mother, but she is so definite about what is abuse (eg it never occurred to me that being stonewalled for days at a time when little was abuse) that it opened my eyes