April 2023 -"Well we took you to Stately Homes"

Good evening all, trying to stay strong and positive but goldenballs brother keeps texting me to tell me how parents are even though he knows my full feelings and reasons why I'm NC. I can't trust him. I blocked him on text, whatsapp etc but then he texted me from a different number.
Tonight I told him clearly I didn't want to know how they are and blocked that number too.
Don't want to have to change my number but every time he gets through it's usually when I'm trying to relax or already overwhelmed. I've spent all evening relaying and justifying reasons why I'm NC out loud to my husband who completely understands and supports. My autistic brain is whirring this round repetitively which is exhausting when I could be watching a programme.
If I hadn't got that text, our evening would have mean much nicer.
My brain needs them to fuck off!

Regarding PP about having trouble standing up for yourself, I totally get that. I was actively blamed for anything anyone ever did to me inside or outside the home so me sticking up for myself just seemed arbitrary when everyone just had a go at me anyway.

Now I'm better at it but still get overly shaky as my system goes into overdrive sending me familiar feelings of shame and being the one that's 'in trouble'. I'm much better at sticking up for others than myself.

I'm working on it 🌸

@tippinggtowardsinfinity thank you! I had lots of therapy and am pretty much my own therapist now. And yes, I am gradually becoming more non-reactive in every part of my life. It's such a relief, eh? My stress levels are so much lower!

I had to spend a few years making all these connections to the past to be able to process and come to terms with whatever happened and get to know myself. Over the past couple of weeks I also felt more of an impulse to move on now and to fully begin my new life. I honestly think the days of depression etc could be behind me and I'm truly healing.

You lot are blinking inspirational!

I'm having therapy. Last week I spoke to my NM on the phone for the first time since Feb. In that time I've learnt what's actually happening for the first time. What I found interesting about the call was that rather than allowing myself to become highly triggered, I focused on the techniques she used on me, almost like my own game of narc bingo! (In case you're wondering, I counted 9 - in a 13min call - including gas lighting, blaming, othering, belittling, shaming, silent treatment, victim signalling, passive aggression and guilt tripping)

Therapy is really helping me to recognise what's happening, that I'm not to blame or responsible, and that she's not able to change. I now recognise that I'm grieving the loss of a mother, not the loss of her. And that's massively helpful to me.

@mrssilky I agree with @tippinggtowardsinfinity about changing phone number. Your brother has demonstrated that he is not prepared to respect your boundaries by using a different phone to reach your mobile.

This is why nobody knows where I live - even beloved nieces/nephews - because it's the only way I can keep my boundaries watertight.

@tippinggtowardsinfinity and @Sicario thank you, I'm going to change it next month. I can't risk being upset like this again. I felt like I was moving forward and that set me back massively.

I'm hoping to move soon and I definitely will not be telling them where I live that's for sure!

I keep thinking back to my childhood and things that were said to me by my parents and realising that these aren’t normal things to say to a child. Or possibly that these things were never said by the people being “quoted” and that they were just my mothers way of saying horrible things to me to get me to do things her way.
”we had you tested for dyslexia, but they decided you were just lazy”
“We got feedback from X that you are arrogant”
“You lie so much you don’t even know what’s the truth anymore”
My son is the age (young teen) now that I was then and I would never ever ever say anything like this to him, let alone at such a vulnerable age where he’s figuring himself out.
My mum gaslights a lot, certainly these days now I’m on alert for it but she’s probably always done it. So I wonder if the last one was her projecting.
I became a nervous young adult with limited social skills who assumed they were lazy and arrogant and that people who liked me hadn’t seen through me yet. I still have massive imposter syndrome at work some days, usually the day after a success.

I’ve entered a stage of massive resentment towards my parents for doing/allowing this and for putting my sibling through worse.
All of this criticism was under the guise of me doing well at school (I did fine) to set me up for the future. But now I’ve achieved things in my career that I am immensely proud and I’m financially stable (which is what she said she wanted for me) she isn’t interested at all.

Now I’m a parent I can’t see how she thought this was ok behaviour and how she thought she was supporting my emotional development. Is it possible she doesn’t understand the need for emotional development? Or was she putting her own needs to look good to the outside first? There are plenty examples of the latter. I know what it means for her personality type.
Sorry, bit of a ramble but good to get it out in this safe space.

Hi @Snoozinandlosin those are awful things to say to a child or anyone really. I understand how you must have felt, because as children we believe what our parents say is true.

It's best to work this out with a therapist, but I think there is a common theme amongst those kind of parents, so not sure how much applies to your mother. They usually are very insecure people with low confidence and as a child you are an easy target to take these things out on. Some parents are seriously disordered and lack empathy and an understanding what unconditional love means. They also lack the capacity to reflect, take accountability and correct their actions.

All people have said mean things in their lifetime. One of the main differences between abusers and 'normal' people is that the latter are interested in understanding how their actions might have affected someone, they can feel remorse and would be willing to change behaviour, and this would be long-term. They take accountability for their actions.

I can't speak for your mother, but one thought I had is that those kind of parents are just driven by covering up their own insecurities etc and use their children for that. They don't care so much about how this affects you, they just want to come out on top and control your behaviour by saying such mean things.

@Snoozinandlosin I'm so sorry. Those are terrible behaviours by your mum. Well done for bringing up your son lovingly and making a success of your life. This forum is amazing. There is so much compassion and wisdom here.

Does anybody want to earn some money as assassin?

I'm getting to the absolute end of the road with The Hag - the toxic MIL - who I don't see anymore.

Mr Monkey is very LC with her now to the extent that his only contact is hospital appointments.

She has a disabled son who she treats like a slave son. MM has passed most duties now to him as SS has Stockholm Syndrome and thinks a childhood with severe and constant violence (knives etc) is normal.

So, today MM had to take the 86 year old bitch of spleen to the hospital dermatologist to get a patch of very mild skin cancer examined. She is prescribed an ointment for two weeks. The alternative is surgery. She has carers who can put it on twice a day.

She has rung countless times this afternoon kicking off

“I won't take it”
“That’s your choice”

The emotional blackmail doesn't work now. Since therapy, MM has seen everything for what it is.

The real reason for this bout of blackmail is that she is furious that he's passing hospital appointments to Patient Services and told her today.

All his dealings with her are toxic. Last year he ran out of leave because of the constant appointments. His health suffered as a result.

This year he's realised that he has no duty towards her and is beginning to talk about no contact. I think handing stuff over to Patient Services is him moving to cutting the rope.

He's wrestling with the guilt about no contact and “what will people think?” I think if he explained his hideous childhood and the continuing abuse - now heavy duty emotional abuse - they would understand. If not, tough, good for them that they have no empathy to a man who is 54 and has serious CPTSD.

The last call was the piteous I'm sorry. Which isn't really an apology but trying to draw him back in. He doesn't fall for it now and simply says “ok”.

No contact is his choice and I don't feel it's my place to force him into this. But I will support him 150% to become a happier person.

He's turned his phone off. I'm cracking open the Sauv Blanc at 6pm on the dot and ordering a takeaway.

I absolutely loathe her.

I've just realised the emotional blackmail is about her pushing us to host her here. Hysterical emoji.

We've had 10 weeks of her vile company over the last three years - covid, broken wrist, flat renovations, broken lift in her building (we will NEVER have her over the door step again) - and this exposure brought the hell of MM’s childhood back and caused us both severe mental illness.

She honestly thinks that having her here is an option. Christ. There is NO way.

Thanks @Twatalert you have described my mother pretty well there. It’s hard because I know her own upbringing has contributed to the way she is and she probably has made conscious improvements to what she sees as good parenting but it has taken its toll on me. Now she expects us to sort out all her problems for her and I have little drive to do this and that makes me feel like and awful person. I help others willingly but right now I’ve reached my limit with her. I am I unpicking all of this with a therapist but I guess I have some way to go.

@Snoozinandlosin you can have compassion for the way she was brought up, but if she's not taking accountability for her behaviour as an adult I'd draw very clear boundaries to protect myself. She's 100pc responsible for her own behaviour now, even though she could not control what happened to her as a child.

Would you ask your children to accept unreasonable behaviour from you because xyz happened to you as a child or would you try to find ways so it doesn't affect them? And if you make a mistake are you open to hearing it and take corrective action or are you gaslighting your kids, shut them down and tell them horrible lies about themselves?

And this is the difference between you and your mother.

If you feel pressure from your mother to xyz I'd suggest asking yourself what YOU want to do. How do you feel about what she's asking of you? How do you want to live your life? That's the only thing that matters. Quite often we'd happily help people if there was a time when the relationship could grow and we can be our authentic self. As soon as that's not the case...this raises question marks with me. It's screams of guilt tripping and pressure from one party. Someone who accepts our boundaries does not need to guilt trip us and we probably don't mind doing stuff for them if we can do it without completing letting ourselves down.

@tippinggtowardsinfinity agree with all you see. Proper therapy is hugely important but I must say that it was something else that completely changed my perspective. I did some sort of residential retreat, which focusses in unpicking childhood patterns and teaching participants to feel themselves and their surroundings. It was the most intense experience and it changed my life completely.

It taught me what therapy didn't teach me in all these years, perhaps because 50 mins a week are never enough to dive really deep. It taught me that there is a place in me that is completely peaceful and I learnt how to return to this place anytime I want. I learnt how to truly recognise my needs and interests and it taught me how to imagine my future life. I still had many, many very difficult moments after the retreat but I kept returning to my peaceful place and in this place I absolutely know what is right for me and what I want to do or not. I can completely trust my higher self. It honestly changed my life. At the start the changes were small but over time I had some major breakthroughs and the speed at which I felt better and better accelerated over time. It also sorted out my sleep issues. It's the best decision I have ever made for myself.

Where/what was the retreat?

@Twatalert I'd be really interested in this retreat too, if you're OK to share the details please?

@mrssilky I find I can stand up for others better than myself too. What made me laugh about your post is that my sil calls my dB golden balls in regards to how he gets treated so differently to me.

@Cuckoosheep it's the only way to describe him, he's so brilliant apparently his balls literally shine 🤣

I feel as though I have found my people. My Mum and I have very different personalities, whilst there was no physical abuse, there was emotional abuse and since I was able to move out at 18 I have been VLC with her. The only reason I have to have contact is because I love my Dad and my dc are very attached to him but he is very unwell and unlikely to live past this year. Struggling to work out what to do when he passes. She has dementia and will need ever increasing care that I do not want to provide. She is using the dementia diagnosis to conveniently forget that we are not fond of each other and is dropping hints about me moving in with her when he passes. This will never happen. I know that I will be in for a battle but I am going to set hard boundaries. It saddens me that is like this but I have to protect my own mental health.

"Good therapy is revolutionary, it enables us to go places we wouldn't believe possible at the outset. Mix it up with physical practices that tune up your nervous system, like long walks, yoga, vagus nerve reset exercises. Once our nervous system is balanced it is easy to make good choices for us, not reactive, self destructive ones."

@tippinggtowardsinfinity I have found these things so helpful too. It has taken decades of all of this and like you I wish I had come to some realisations + healing sooner but the important thing is to be here now. While it taking time to recover without all of these things I would be a shadow of my current self.

@Snoozinandlosin I know what you mean about having empathy for others' upbringing to understand their behaviour. I had done this my whole life for my siblings and mother but as another poster said they are accountable adults. In the last few years, I realised I could also behave the way my family do and use my childhood to justify it. Everyone posting here has had it tough in various ways but we are all breaking that cycle. My family have chosen not to, so I have finally let go of the empathy. Letting go of empathy was an important step for me to move forward. I also think that narc family prey on empathetic and kind family members so the whole thing feeds into each other. I still have empathy but not for my family.

Like @Twatalert said: "All people have said mean things in their lifetime. One of the main differences between abusers and 'normal' people is that the latter are interested in understanding how their actions might have affected someone, they can feel remorse and would be willing to change behaviour, and this would be long-term. They take accountability for their actions.

I can't speak for your mother, but one thought I had is that those kind of parents are just driven by covering up their own insecurities etc and use their children for that. They don't care so much about how this affects you, they just want to come out on top and control your behaviour by saying such mean things."

I have found this to be the case with my family and it was very confusing as a child. When therapists say 'notice how you feel when you're around certain people or situations', all I could notice was that I felt angry, upset or anxious... this was my body's way of telling me that something was off, like a warning and the more I didn't listen to the warning the worse the physical symptoms became. It took some time to notice the cause of those feelings because those family members and situations were all I knew since I was born. I didn't know what unconditional love and support felt like so I misinterpreted toxic behaviour and normalised it.

For example one of the things that my mother did when I was a kid was to talk about my friends in a mean way to me by putting them down or picking holes in their appearance, race or behaviour. She repeatedly told me that friends are not important and I should focus on family. I wasn't allowed to visit them or see them outside of school. As an adult I now realise that this was about her own insecurities and control. She still says weird things when I tell her I met a friend or about my kid's friends. Somehow I have a few friends that stuck with me through all of this (without even knowing about my narc family because I was too embarrassed to share it with them) - they've become my family in many ways.

Thanks for all the posts - they have helped me enormously and I don't feel so alone.😊

Little things estranged child has said to me I've heard before from my mother . I'm convinced I missed out on their graduation because of her poison dripping . His words were "your not taking the glory for my hard work. " A phrase she used often throughout my childhood. I've noticed my other dc has been off with me also , visits her a lot and ends up doing stuff for her .

She is very good at putting words originally said by herself or someone in the family into other peoples mouths .

At my uncles funeral I noticed the family looking at me daggers . There was some concern voiced to me by her before he died about his care . No doubt she has used me as her mouthpiece to air her views , as in "Well Wasley said ...." She has form for that .

No doubt when she dies stuff will come tumbling out of the woodwork. I think it's only when people begin to talk after someone has died that pieces of the jigsaw fit and people realise how they have been played off against each other.

Hi @Wasley I'm sorry your family relationships are so complicated. You mention your child is estranged from you. What reason have they mentioned to you? What did they raise with you in the past they might not have been happy about?

Sorry to hear about your Dad being so poorly @FortiesFunk That’s a very difficult situation and one I am likely to face myself in the future (I am NC with both my narc parents due to emotional abuse but anticipating my DB will try to contact me for support if/when one or both of them develop dementia or other illness).

I’ve asked DH to repeat back to me what my NM said about my grandmother when she had dementia if a situation like yours does arise: “I wouldn’t see her starve but she’s had her life. I’m not putting my life on hold for her…” What goes around…

In your case, under no circumstances should you move in with your Mum and yes to setting hard boundaries. You reduced contact as soon as you could as an adult for good reason and whilst she might be vulnerable due to her dementia now, the emotional abuse she inflicted on you was when she was a competent adult, so she is reaping what she has sown.

You are right to want to ensure she is not neglected but at the same time her care shouldn’t have to fall to you and make you ill in the process. There are others who can take care of her who will not be emotionally triggered by her.

Do you have any siblings or another relative or family friend who you could discuss things with? Is there anyone else who might perhaps be willing to take on Power of Attorney for your Mum or if not that then could they at least be listed as next of kin instead of you if that would help? Does your Mum have a package of care already that could be increased?

I appreciate your Dad may be too poorly for such discussions but have you asked him for his thoughts about your Mum’s future care? (Just be careful not to get into making promises to him that you can’t keep or that would keep you trapped).

If you can’t discuss it with any family members or family friends who understand the situation (you don’t need any flying monkeys at this difficult time) then I would make contact with your Mum’s GP and social services in confidence to outline the situation that you will be unable to care for her in the future (you could say because you are estranged but wouldn’t have to necessarily state your reasons) and that you want to bring her to their attention before your Dad dies in order to avoid a crisis as she is at risk of self neglect due to dementia.

Many people on this thread and earlier ones have said how their narc parents got worse with age and/or dementia so you need to safeguard yourself as well.

One of the other main things is to try and set up support systems for yourself now as with your Dad being ill and your Mum’s dementia lots of difficult emotions are likely to surface. Try to make sure you are sleeping and eating well as a starter and that you have an outlet for the emotions that are likely to arise whether that is a trusted friend or partner, a therapist or journalling. Your Mum and maybe others are likely to try to guilt trip you to try to get you to look after her because it makes their lives easier so stay strong and remember the reasons you went VLC to begin with.

We are here to support you as a sounding board - good luck!

@FortiesFunk I hear you on the aged abusive parent suddenly thinking they're entitled to have 24/7 from children they've treated like shit. My MIL has tried this trick. I got onto social services and got carers in place which of course she hates and moans about constantly. With social services hammer home you don't have the time / space / experience to take on care. Be very firm and don't feel guilty.

@Snoozinandlosin thank you for your post. You've described something that happened to me and I've never heard or read about it happening to anyone else before.

Intermittently, throughout my life right up to the present, my mum would tell me someone that I liked, and who I thought liked or at least got on with me, had said something spiteful about me.

I don't know if she says these things to other people.

One that really stands out was that someone who knew me from when I was 12 until he died a few years ago (think a band master and I was a musician - that kind of friendship) had told her I was always incredibly highly strung and over emotional.

As my own children get older (both adults now) I realise that no one has ever come up to me to tell me how awful they are! Certainly not years after seeing them, remembering their faults, and not someone who my children would have classed as a friend/colleague/teacher.

It almost gives me a shocked, lurching feeling to think of her going to the effort of making this stuff up to upset me.

Also, stories quoted hundreds (literally) of times of criticisms that teachers gave at parents evenings. Never a positive tale of the exam results I got or the extra curricular things I did. The criticisms are still repeated, FORTY YEARS after she first heard them.

I honestly couldn't remember one thing from my children's parent evenings, years after they've left school!