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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

how can we stay married?

152 replies

confusedabouthim · 05/07/2010 21:27

Is it better not to concentrate on each others good points and not try and find out each others bad points? Sometimes i wish i had taken my mothers advice. insteadi know my husband was watching porn, calling sex chat lines, sending text chats to anonymous strangers, etc

i wish i could concentrate on the fact that he is kind, gentle, good mannered, fantastic with the kids, benevolent about my spending and lets me use as much money as i like, and works really hard in a high status high earning job and gives everythnig to me and the kids from it.

am i being a cow to wish he wouldnt relieve his stress in such ways?

should i just assume that no one is perfect and just stick to the good things?

should i just tell him to put a pin on his phone and change his email password and just make it hard for me to find out if hes doing anything?

is that the only way i can be happy in my marraige? what compromises am i supposed to make, not supposed to make?

how do i forget bad stuff and move on? how do i not see his bad side? is that the only way i can stay married?

OP posts:
confusedabouthim · 14/07/2010 21:52

gosh sorry for all the typos!

OP posts:
AnyFucker · 14/07/2010 21:55

Six hundred quid on chat lines

I would call that an addiction

To me, that is incompatible with family life. I would be beyond angry at family money being spent in this way.

I might have to bow out of this thread now, in fact I should have done this a long time ago.

Your original question, OP was "how can I stay married?"

I wouldn't be. I am sorry. All the best.

confusedabouthim · 14/07/2010 22:07

yup, 600quid in just one month on phone chat. the next month he sent a 1000 quid in charity overseas to make up for it and its never ever happened since but it made the porn vids in internet explorer fade in comparison...

OP posts:
Rafwife · 14/07/2010 22:11

600 is more than just finding he has delved once a year or so isn't it?

That's a lot of dosh and well I don't know it's different from what was said earlier in the thread.

Porn history > total control of his life > sex addict although you only find incriminating stuff once a year or so.

TBH I think your head is all over the place as well, so I'd definately keep counselling for you and it's down to you if you want couples councelling.

Giving the new info would I stay, no.

AnyFucker · 14/07/2010 22:16

It is certainly new concrete information on this thread, but did we all honestly think what OP had already disclosed (or even the full extent of what even she is aware of) would ever have been the full story here ???

this bloke has a big problem with sex and intimacy

there is more, I would bet my weekly wine fund on it

ShirleyKnot · 14/07/2010 22:16

Holy Lord.

Right I want you to look at this:

"i love him very much and he loves me very much"

What does this mean to you confused?

Shall I tell you what it means to me?

It means that I love and respect my man. I love that he is kind to me and looks after me; I love that he listens to me when I am talking to him; I love him because if I say "I don't like this, in fact, it's a deal breaker" I know that he'll say "OK, let's talk" and we'll talk, and come to an agreement. We have lot's and lot's of lovely sex. But never if I don't want to and never if he doesn't want to.

My partner loves me because I tell him what for! I'm not a doormat upon which to wipe his feet, he knows where he stands, I am kind to him, and look after him; I listen when he is talking to me; if he said "this is a deal breaker" I would say, "OK let's talk." and we'll talk, and come to an agreement. (um the sex thing has been covered!)

THIS is a relationship. THIS is normal. What you have is not that. I'm so sorry. (I've been in dysfunctional shit before - this is dysfunctional sweetie.)

In answer to your original question...You can stay married, bury every part of you that exists, subject your children to a lifetime of misery (not only through growing up in a loveless environment, but also by learning their "loving cues" from you and your husband) Smile when all you want to do is cry, close your eyes to all of it, keep on being a "wife"

OR

Move on, show your children that a life lived alone is better than a life lived UNLIVED.

Do it. We're all waiting and supporting you.

Eurostar · 14/07/2010 22:32

Hello. I haven't read all the thread past page 3 so apologies if this has been covered but in asking how you might save your marriage, all I can say is...communication..

Your husband certainly seems to have a problem with being "dirty" with you and his behaviour has understandably caused resentment in you which drives a wedge. I'm not sure from your posts how much you enjoy sex or feel able to enjoy it.

It's good that he has committed to the online recovery course in that he wants to change but it is still driving a wedge between the two of you as you sneak a look at his responses and feel hurt and rejected all over again. I am wondering if the course is a good one though. He doesn't need to be going into his sexual fantasies, he needs to be trying to discover what he is avoiding with the porn (presumably treating the mother of his children in a way that a "madonna" shouldn't be treated in his mind).

I'd say you two need to find a way to tackle this together. Relate do a book that is a sex guide for couples - could you try and work through this together? I appreciate that it would be tremendously difficult at first, especially for him perhaps given the shyness you have talked about. Perhaps you can make a contract together to go through the book and agree to accept each others views and opinions on the book.

I do feel for you both, it seems he grew up with role models of father figures who separated sex and wives, I'm not so sure from your posts what messages you grew up with about sex. I'm not sure if, when you talk about weight, it is your perception that he can't fancy you if you are not thin or if this is something he has said for instance?

So...essentially...if he can come to view you as someone he can dare to be fully sexual with and you can forgive him the past and be sexual with him..it would seem that there could be hope.

AnyFucker · 14/07/2010 22:34

euro...any thoughts on the 600 quid on sex chatlines blown in one month ?

Eurostar · 14/07/2010 22:43

AF - I think it's very sad but given the shedloads these things cost, it wouldn't mean he was on the phone from dusk til dawn. It represents however an addiction - some people manage to cure addictions - some don't. I saw that he then went on to give a lot of money to charity through guilt of the behaviour. Hence, this doesn't seem to be someone who doesn't care.

AnyFucker · 14/07/2010 22:45

I don't agree

I don't equate giving money away to charity as "caring", I call it having a guilty conscience and doing it to shut up the missus "see what a great guy I am...?"

I would call it manipulative, not magnanimous

anyway, I am supposed to have left this thread

tabouleh · 14/07/2010 22:51

confused I'm glad you came back to the thread! Also glad that the porn discussion has been helpful.

You may have missed the link I posted in all the backwards and forwards posts up thread.

It is a page from a US website called Stop Porn Culture - and the specific link is to a section called "Some common questions about pornography and intimate relationships"

You can access the page here.

Good luck with your journey. You deserve so so much better.

AnyFucker · 14/07/2010 22:52

hey, tab, thanks for your support upthread

Eurostar · 14/07/2010 23:02

That's the thing, we just can't know from a net thread if this man is suffering and can change or is...as you put it "I call it having a guilty conscience and doing it to shut up the missus "see what a great guy I am...?"

Confused and her H might be able to discover each other in a sexual way and build a good life together...or they might not, he might be unable to ever get over what seemingly is a Madonna/Whore complex, or he might be able to.

tabouleh · 14/07/2010 23:06

AF - no probs - I think I'm on your wavelength .

differentnameforthis · 15/07/2010 01:51

I am fairly relaxed about dh watching porn, but would not accept any of the other things you mention.

Even for a 'comfortable life'.

Why do you feel you have to ask him to merely hide his 'habits' than stop them altogether.

Why is your self worth so low, that you feel you have to put up with this?

differentnameforthis · 15/07/2010 02:10

You ask how you stay married. Well I expect the answer isn't nice.

I imagine it is this :

You turn a blind eye. You stop looking for indiscretions, you stop caring what he is doing & who he is doing it with (texts/calls etc). You pretend it isn't happening. You carry on loving him, while he cheats on you. You carry on telling yourself & your children that this is OK, because he is benevolent about my spending and lets me use as much money as i like, and works really hard in a high status high earning job and gives everything to me and the kids from it

You remember that he is kind, gentle, good mannered, fantastic with the kids.

You live a lie. But everyday you die a little, every time you find out that he has 'upped his game - for a bigger thrill' you die a little more. You will stop loving him eventually & he will turn it all around on you. It is your fault because you allowed it to happen. (which of course isn't true, but he will use anything for this not to be his fault!

Can you live with that? For the sake of a ring? Because, in all fairness, it sounds like that is all your marriage is. He has so little respect for you & that is damaging you already, to the point that you are contemplating just putting up with this for a comfortable life.

differentnameforthis · 15/07/2010 02:21

i can't stand that he might go off and marry someone else who won't give a crap about the porn or the other stuff

Just so you know, OP. You are in a very small minority. No women I know (while tolerating some viewable porn usage) would tolerate phone calls, texts etc. I really do think you have a skewed way of thinking, if you believe that someone will take him on, regardless of his habits.

Also, if you do leave him I believe his usage will escalate to actually seeking full physical sexual release, in which case, most women would run miles from a a man like this.

tortoiseonthehalfshell · 15/07/2010 04:53

I'd be surprised if someone who spent 600 quid in one month on sex chatlines, and who has been hiding his activities for ages, hasn't already paid for personal contact, actually.

Can I just go back to something I think RAFwife said upthread, purportedly in defence of men who use porn:

I do think porn has become more rape like than it was say 10 years ago. But I also think the majority of men are level headed enough to respect that porn is not real and wouldn't dream of looking at their wife like that.

(Man, I love bulk formatting)

Those men, who are looking at that porn, are looking at an actual woman "like that". Why is it alright if it's not their wife? Why is it okay for them to look at "rape like" porn, which means that an actual woman is being actually penetrated in a "rape like" way and get off on it? The very fact that they wouldn't look at their wife like that (a dubious contention, by the way) means that they know that the act they are wanking to, which is actually being done to an actual person, is not an acceptable way to treat a human being.

Why the fuck is it okay that your partner is looking at that sort of thing, just because he makes an exception that the woman who belongs to him isn't part of it?

mathanxiety · 15/07/2010 05:29

" I am always wondering what is going on in his head. he is actually still, after two children with me, quite embarressed to be affectionate and there are a million ways i have said 'i wont brush you off' but he still can never make the first move."

This was me until H became exH. And that was my exH. No trust on one side, no reason to be trustworthy on the other. A sincere repugnance for porn on my part, a complete inability on his to understand my pov that porn and chatrooms and sexting constituted infidelity. If you don't trust him, are basically afraid that if you don't put out he will ship out, you don't have much of a relationship. If sex with you seems to be a chore or something he does reluctantly, or his heart doesn't seem to be in it, it's probably dead already. I eventually found gay porn my exH seemed to be really interested in, and it explained a lot about our miserable relationship. I waited until I found that before giving myself permission to check out mentally and emotionally. I should have done it years before, because he was not a nice man, he did not seem to even like me most of the time, but he got something out of being a bellicose control freak, and he didn't seem to like the children either.

Several factors pushed me to decide it was over -- but the overriding issue and the straw that broke the camel's back was the complete lack of trust.

And Rafwife et al, it actually doesn't matter what your or any 'objective' opinion of porn and sexting, etc. is, and it doesn't matter why Confused's H is using it; in a relationship, what matters is that when one spouse feels disrespected or cast aside or devalued or treated like the glorified household help, the other spouse stops the behaviour that is hurting her and recommits to a relationship with the real flesh and blood woman he married, because that's what real men do. ('Visual' or not, what BS you talk)

confusedabouthim · 15/07/2010 08:49

i had a feeling that mentioning the cost of those calls would bring alot of comment. its alot of money but in comparison to what he normally gets a month its quite small. but i could feed such and such starving children or build such and such many wells or pay the debts of someone for that, which is why he took the decision himself to send money to where he sent it.

Its true AF there are certain things I havent mentioned in the course of this post. it was those calls to premium rate numbers worth 600pounds that had us talking about sex addiction and had him seeking help. trying to give charity was for him a way of trying to atone for spending so much money on something so flagrantly morally reprehensible. it was sincere as far as I knew it and its never happened since. how do i know? well im not 100% sure, but as im in charge of the finances in our family i see his payslip every month and im the one who moves money around accounts so i would have seen anything unusual.

Im the big spender always, i regularly spend 6/700 a month on myself or friends and family and he is the one who just goes to work and comes home and doesnt have any hobbies or things he likes to do outside the house. my phone bills are quite high but his are always just the line rental, so that time i spotted that anomaly really quickly that month and can spot easily that something is up because he hardly uses cash at all.

but what does that do for me? one day, he might just go off and do something that doesnt cost money or leave a trail eg an affair.

its all very well you guys saying that about the phone calls and i should have gone on mumsnet at that time and posted then, but i didnt and so i just dealt with it the way i did.

here are some other things i left unsaid.

when we married we had a compact that i wouldnt work but stay home and look after hte children and in return he would take care of all my financial needs. its my stupidity that i have nothing saved from that time in a secret nest egg for myself - the wasted time - but we have alot of savings as well as a nice house and blah blah. it was from that time that i was put in charge of family money and savings, but i became hypervigilant after that one enormous phone bill. i set one of my brothers up by giving him the money to start his business, paid off several debts for my parents, helped my sister through uni, paid for numerous cousins expenses and also helped out RL friends through their financial problems. my husband has never minded because he wants his wife - me - to be at home and not work. but im so dependent on him now and that salary, and i realise that as his career has progressed i have nothing except my degree.

we had an agreement that i wasnt to travel abroad or anywhere overnight alone but that he would always take me with him if he travelled if i accepted that. and hes kept to that too, from day one we always combine his business trips into holidays as he automatically assumes his family will travel with him and plans accordingly. even if he goes just to another city for a trip il have the kids with my inlaws and well take that time to be away together. iv sent family away on holiday lots of times but have never gone with them because he only wants me to travel with him.

we live quite a conservative lifestyle and that was for his sake because i grew up with a family that was more relaxed. on the outside people look at us as a couple and think hes the religious one and im the irreverent one. if i went for counselling i would have to do it on my own because its hard at this stage to think of blowing that cover and showing our deep issues to an outsider.

gilded cage you might be saying. i know that, i know that, i hate myself.

hes been trying alot but its that little voice in my head that makes me cynical. i used to set great store by his humbleness and contriteness over his problem, i used to think hes never said i have to just put up and shut up and he's never ever tried to turn it around on me or tell me its because of me or something im not giving him.

but one day he might just be like that. and then what the hell would i do because i have always used the dreaded divorce word, not him. my mother tells me to keep my dignity and stop probing. because if i found out those things and i hadnt left, then subconsciously, on both our parts, it means that i tolerated it and overlooked it. i should have left with the porn because we were living too religious a lifestyle for it to be anything except a huge aberration in a person. from one extreme to another, and we're supposed to walk a middle path. but i didnt.

i havent read any of his exercises for the past two weeks. theyre not about his fantasies as such but about the way he reacts and behaves. its enough for me that he's been looking at himself and how his upbringing affects his mindset now.

one of my friends stated she trusted her husband so much that if she walked in on him in bed with another woman she wouldnt get angry and would wait for an explanation. i have so little trust that if my husband tries to encourage me to go out and hel take care of the kids i wonder if he is going to go online or use the phone. even though, to all intents and purposes, i havent seen anything for a year. i want that to change.

OP posts:
confusedabouthim · 15/07/2010 08:57

hey mathanxiety,

you said something in your post 'If you don't trust him, are basically afraid that if you don't put out he will ship out, you don't have much of a relationship. If sex with you seems to be a chore or something he does reluctantly, or his heart doesn't seem to be in it, it's probably dead already.' that had me really thinking.

there was a period last year when i was losing alot of weight and my husband was thrilled. he became really open during that time and told me that sex before had been boring because i was heavy but that it was making him really happy that i was so much slimmer. hed never mentioned it before so it was an absolute shock but as i started gaining weight and then some i also lost interest in sex because of the frankness that he spoke with at that time. for himself, hes never mentioned it again or shown he has a problem, but i think that asides from the porn or sex chats, we have an issue there. its why my sister said to me you would rather divorce than lose weight.

he has told me a few times that before we married when he lived on his own he used to do alot of web sex chats so my coming along stopped that for him. i think if i left him he wouldnt have much trouble getting married again, especially from people from our background because short of physical violence, divorce is such a no no.

OP posts:
whatifihadneverbothered · 15/07/2010 09:09

As you said yourself, one day he might go off and do something that doesn't cost money or leave a trail e.g. an affair.

My experience and I am saying this is my experience, that day will come, it did when I found out that my ex was doing all the things your H is doing now, except that he was arranging to meet these women behind my back, just porn, and sexting as you call it wasn't enough in the end, and he met "the one" through sexting.

Are you happy to just wait for the inevitable to happen? or would you rather take control now and tell him it is not acceptable behaviour for a married man.

Coolfonz · 15/07/2010 10:42

Confused - There appear from what you say to be a host of issues here and they seem to stem from the fact you didn't love your husband when you married him.

So your marriage is largely about status/money and contracts/agreements, you seem to replace love with respect - a much over used word these days I find. Into this we mix £600 worth of sex texts/chatlines in one month and all that followed.

Again from what you say it sounds really quite miserable. You sound miserable. He sounds quite cruel about the weight thing saying "sex was boring". That's not a good way of putting it at all. Your sister's comment is idiotic, sadly.

From someone who has never met you and just read this thread, it sounds like you don't love him or even really like him, and he feels roughly the same about you.

Life is short...I'd either fix it by confronting all these things in the open with him, or get out and find a man you love form the off...

mathanxiety · 15/07/2010 15:51

Confused, we have different religions but I see a lot of similarities between your H and my ex, even including involvement in iffy sexual situations before marriage -- in my ex's case he used to frequent strip clubs with his friends from quite a young age, and I found evidence that he was the kind of person who (way back when, long before internet dating sites became acceptable) would answer personal ads of the 'Lonely Hearts Club' variety. Your H seems to have been involved in chat lines... He seems to be a very dysfunctional person, sexually, who is stuck at the phase of self-satisfaction and fantasy, and unable to relate to a real woman sexually. Maybe not sex addiction, and maybe the counselling there is reinforcing his notions that he should be throwing up barriers in the way of having sex, that he can't trust himself when it comes to sex? Maybe he needs some psychotherapy or sex therapy to come to an understanding of his inability to relate sexually to you, a real woman, and his preference for fantasy, and ways he can grow himself up? For my ex, this kind of therapy might have helped him accept his bisexuality or the fact that he is more gay than bi, but I have no idea if he has or ever will accept this. And since he is now out of my hair, it's not my remit any more.

The trouble with all that exposure to fantasy is that there may well come the day when it is not enough, as many have said. My ex crossed that line. I felt I completely lost my dignity trying to figure out what he was doing, following his trail -- the detective work consumed me. Having an sti test done gave me more clarity than I would have achieved in ten years of following his trail across the sordid corners of the net. It took me a few years to get to the point where I could detach, despite the fact that he was, on top of everything else, abusive.

A man cannot just walk away and leave his family penniless. Their circumstances will be reduced, yes, but if he marries again and has children, he is still required to stick to the support and maintenance agreement for his first family. What he has left after that gets spread thinner for the new family if there is one.

mumatron3000 · 15/07/2010 16:04

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