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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

how can we stay married?

152 replies

confusedabouthim · 05/07/2010 21:27

Is it better not to concentrate on each others good points and not try and find out each others bad points? Sometimes i wish i had taken my mothers advice. insteadi know my husband was watching porn, calling sex chat lines, sending text chats to anonymous strangers, etc

i wish i could concentrate on the fact that he is kind, gentle, good mannered, fantastic with the kids, benevolent about my spending and lets me use as much money as i like, and works really hard in a high status high earning job and gives everythnig to me and the kids from it.

am i being a cow to wish he wouldnt relieve his stress in such ways?

should i just assume that no one is perfect and just stick to the good things?

should i just tell him to put a pin on his phone and change his email password and just make it hard for me to find out if hes doing anything?

is that the only way i can be happy in my marraige? what compromises am i supposed to make, not supposed to make?

how do i forget bad stuff and move on? how do i not see his bad side? is that the only way i can stay married?

OP posts:
PosieParker · 13/07/2010 16:17

I do think counselling would be a good thing for the OP to help her find out what her boundaries are and to, fundamentally believe that her husband's behaviour is not her fault.

PosieParker · 13/07/2010 16:20

OP....do you love your husband? Because respect is not enough for a lifetime of happiness.

lifeinlimbo · 13/07/2010 16:31

Hi, I think you should go to Relate. You can go alone and/or with your husband. They will help you go through this.

Rafwife · 13/07/2010 16:31

The impression I get and none of the "names" were aimed at op and this is just the way I read it, a lot of older prudish women who then wonder why their husbands go off elsewhere on this forum. In a it will never happen to me fashion, or I never saw that one coming.

Just my opinion and yes I think it's ludacrous than in this situation he has had a bit of a wank over porn and now op controls all of his lifestyle, spies on him and has labelled him a sex addict for having a bit of porn history on his computer.

I think that has made the problem 100x times worse and driven the issue "underground".

You are seriously telling me if you sneaked a look at porn which your husband then found out about, hypothetical ofc, you'd all have him harrasing you, taking control of your emails/phone/bank/work to keep tabs on you, for years,really? Would it not drive you down and make you seek solace elsewhere?

This would be abuse would it not the other way around? Past mistakes are no need to go on punishing/abusing/controlling etc according to all here, so why is it ok for op to do it for years she has said?

You all harp on about equality but by ops own admission it's not a regular thing, it all stemmed from a bit of porn and he now once a year or so uses the phone as his internet account is spied on 100% of the time.

So to summarise op found porn history, she went ballistic, has completely taken control of his life and privacy, he feels controlled and looks for an escape around once a year in "sex lines" as he is constantly being hounded over a spot of porn.

Op by her own admission has said it's not regular thing and she feels her reaction has probably played a part in it escalating.

I think some of you need to look at your own relationships if you think as a female it's acceptable to spy and control your OH's emails, phone, bank, work etc over the space of years due to the risk of "porn" How terribly damaging and controlling.

I know damn well what you'd all say if it were a woman who'd had a perv at something and her husband saw fit to run her into the ground and take control of all their life.

I think you have all been on MSNT too long if you think that level of control over several years is normal. It's not. Op has her own issues to address porn aside.

AnyFucker · 13/07/2010 17:03

I don't think I have read this thread wrong.

Looking at images is one thing. Looking at live sex streaming (YouPorn and the like...)is another. I know that men do it. I am sure my DH has, possibly still does. I have had a nosy myself.

Sex chatlines and sex texting are a step further again, however.

The latter two are a line crossed in that you interact with a live person, one-to-one. I know the person on the end of the chatline is probably 25 stone, with halitosis and in the middle of doing her knitting in reality but I would go ballistic if my DH was to use them.

If he was texting and receiving texts of a sexual nature from anyone other than me, I would deem it as infidelity.

Rafwife...I disagree with you and I think you have read the thread wrongly. Do you think this bloke's DH would be happy for her to text other blokes and chat about sexual stuff ? I don't think soooo...

Does what he is doing disrespect his wife? Bloody hell, yes.

Should she turn a blind eye for an easy life ? Fuck, no.

I wouldn't.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 13/07/2010 17:07

My goodness, you get worse Rafwife!

You seem to equate a dislike of porn with being "old and prudish". And imply that if women feel that way, their husbands will be unfaithful. That men have "no imagination" (in an earlier post of yours on this thread)and can only respond to visual stimulation, that they are lying to their wives about their porn use and that those who dissent from your view of the world, are gullible.

Where on earth did you learn these views?

FWIW, I don't think monitoring someone's private correspondence long-term is healthy or normal, but neither do I think it's healthy or normal to be engaging in sex texting with anyone, if you're in a committed relationship.

This has become a dance - like a stingray and a clam and it's an unhealthy dynamic all round.

What would help more would be some proper discussions about fidelity and sex in the marriage. This man is not a demon, but if he cannot regard his wife as a sexual being, but has no trouble treating the women who respond to his sex texts as such, then there's a problem here with how he views sexuality in marriage.

And if his only male role models have been cheerfully unfaithful, then I'd say it's fairly understandable that our OP is worried he'll go the same way.

Monitoring this all the time won't solve it. Talking will. Both of you need some help I suspect, OP in working out how you can both express your sexuality within marriage. You have the right to a fulfilling sex life just as much as him, but I think at the root of this is his deeply-held beliefs that married women with children are not sexual beings with desires of their own.

AnyFucker · 13/07/2010 17:08

Classic Madonna/Whore

I wouldn't give it houseroom

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 13/07/2010 17:23

Yes AF. You see this is the bit that seems to have eluded Rafwife:

" I am always wondering what is going on in his head. he is actually still, after two children with me, quite embarressed to be affectionate and there are a million ways i have said 'i wont brush you off' but he still can never make the first move."

Now how would you feel Rafwife if your H was embarrassed to have sex with you, but wasn't embarrassed when he was texting another woman?

Contrary to your "old and prudish" slur, you'll find that the older women on this thread adore sex and believe they have every right to a satisfying sex life with men who do have a wonderful imagination .

AnyFucker · 13/07/2010 17:31

I am "older" perhaps by some standards

I have a filthy sex life and wouldn't expect anything less than sexual adoration from my DH

If he brushed me off, but then got "satisfaction" from phoning some woman he thought was a blond bimbo with plastic tits, but who was actually a 65 yo toothless crone who murmured "ohhhhh, you turn me onnn, I am wearing red pantiiiiies" whilst mopping her kitchen floor and plucking her nose hairs I would fucking divorce him.

Mainly for stupidity (can you cite that in a divorce petition ? )...

RumourOfAHurricane · 13/07/2010 17:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 13/07/2010 17:51

that made me spill my wine coffee, AF!!

And I'm sure it hasn't eluded you or Annie that phone chats involve aural stimulation and a very vivid imagination!

Suspect my H and my mates will laugh like a drain about being called old and prudish....that really is a first!

00000000000000 · 13/07/2010 18:03

i have been married for a long time (but i am not old and prudish!) and i have a really lovely husband. he is handsome, kind, funny, a good father, good with money,and we have a lovely sex life.

However he too likes to look at porn and it absolutely tears me apart. We have an argument about it every few years and then we carry n like normal and then it rears it's ugly head again and it makes me physically want to puke.

When we married we made a vow that said 'forsaking all others'. For me, that means that we find our sexual satisfaction in each other. even though porn is only images, it's images of other women. I hate the thought of him choosing to be aroused by other women.

I don't do what the op does-i don't keeptrack of him all the time -i tend to keep my head in the sand a bit but at times -like now actually-i wonder how i possibly can carry on doing so.

he doesn't seem to think there is anything wrong with it and thinks that as long as i don't know about it, all will be ok. but it's not. it makes me feel worthless, and betrayed.
and i keep wondering if all the rest is enough to keep me going? part of me thinks that i can't wreck a lovely marriage and family over something that other women tolerate quite easily.

but part of me feels that i hate feeling this. i HATE it and i can't change him.

so where does that leave me?

i think women have it much harder these days. in the past porn was a paper thing and wasn't as widespread. now there are sexual images absolutely everyhwere and so much that was once deemed 'pornographic' is now mainstream and we as women are expected to look on it benignly.

but what if you can't?

AnyFucker · 13/07/2010 18:15

you don't have to, OOO

and I don't look on it benignly

I think porn is just one of the contributory factors in the downturn in our society and I fear for my teenage DD about what the expectations upon her may be and the depths she might be expected to go to, because of unrealistic expectations of lads brought up in a porn culture

00000000000000 · 13/07/2010 18:17

bringing up sons in this world is no joke either. how the hell do you teach them that all this shit is not normal?

AnyFucker · 13/07/2010 18:42

yes, I have a son too

and this shit is not normal...but it appears it is becoming more and more mainstream

BaggyAgy · 13/07/2010 19:01

Hi,

AF, FWIW, I once represented an enormously obese woman who was employed to have telephone sex. She told me that she did it because it was the only time she could arouse a man. She used to pretend she was young slim and beautiful. She cried when she told me this. It was very sad actually.

AnyFucker · 13/07/2010 19:09

BA, that is really, really sad

And I am just thinking that I hope no-one misunderstood my post. I am not denigrating the sex-line workers (although I guess I am being facetious at their expense...)

And I do not think (before sgb rocks up and starts berating me..) that physically unattractive people do not deserve a sex life of some kind, even if they have to ring a sex-line

However, I am judging married men who are stupidly misled by their dicks, and make their wives feel like shit in the process...

Rafwife · 14/07/2010 08:38

No I have read this thread correctly, but then I am probably a bit younger, and have quite a healthy relationship and wouldn't have a fit if my hubby picked up The Sun, but he is a Times reader so it's irrelevant.

So I'd say I am more rational than most here.

He got caught with porn history on his pc.

Op went ballistic and drove him to shame and labelled him a sex addict for watching some porn on a pc.

Hubby now once a year or two uses chatlines for "relief" as op's obsession with keeping the pc under lock and key means he can't watch porn.

Hardly a sex addict.

Due to the porn discovery op has been spying and controlling her husbands, email, phone, bank, work etc for YEARS.

Op sounds depressed and also seems to have self esteem and control issues. Like I say if this were a bloke the advice would be different totally.

It's absolutely NOT normal to react how op has over a bit of porn, whether you like it or not, she has put his whole life on lock down and is controlling him and has done for years, no wonder he tries to break free every now and then.

Anniegetyourgun · 14/07/2010 08:49

Oh well, if you think "picking up the Sun" is porn, I wonder which one of us is old and prudish! That's just a (probably airbrushed) picture of a topless woman. It's nothing. If the OP was worried about that we'd all be telling her to lighten up. Although if he went to bed with a copy of the Sun after refusing to have sex with her we would still think something was wrong - with him. And if your hubby goes to bed with a, er, a copy of the Times? instead of you, all I can say is I don't envy your relationship. If he's willing to share his Times fetish, and you're happy with it, that's fine. That is not where the OP is at.

Rafwife · 14/07/2010 09:29

Erm I am just going off the jist of lots of threads here, where there seems to be a lot of women with issues and hangups. I quite agree "The Sun" is nothing.

Judging by thread here I have a great sex life and I thought it was starting to suffer at every other day

My point was this has all started from finding porn history on the pc, nothing else just occassional browsing of porn, not 6 hours a day addict territory, no chatlines this has started years down the line and is still only occassional.

OP has then by her own admission been controlling his net, phone, statements, work for YEARS all because of a little sneak at porn.

No wonder really that the relationship has got to such a level they don't communicate anymore, when she has been controlling his life and spying on him for YEARS. If that were a man you'd all be screaming abuse, control freak, and "issues".

I am suprised he hasn't already left or had an affair with that level of intrusion and accusations of sex addict for YEARS because of a TINY amount of inital porn viewing.

It's totally NOT normal.

That's the thread from a rational point of view, the fact so many people find that normal behaviour says a lot about them, more controlling women on here than men I think

Hypocrites at that, a man who had been spying and harrassing his wife to that level for years for a smidge of porn history would have been strung up.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 14/07/2010 10:48

Sorry, what does this mean?

"Judging by thread here I have a great sex life and I thought it was starting to suffer at every other day hmm"

I just can't understand what you mean.

Rafwife I don't want to patronise you in kind, but perhaps because you are younger, you haven't yet processed the issues about porn.

I will speak for myself and tell you that my misgivings about it have nothing to do with any jealousy or worries that if my H were looking at it, he would be finding someone more attractive than me. My objections to it are political, not personal. Despite your derision, my H is an intelligent, well-read political animal himself and over the years, both our views on porn have changed, in response I think to two issues.

Unlike when we were young and first married, extreme porn has become much more widely accessible. When my H had a chat with our teenage son about this recently, he explained what porn was available when he was that age - it amounted to a magazine passed around his friends. There was no internet. It would have been pretty much impossible for a teenager in those days to access child or animal porn, or porn that involved rape, anal sex, a woman having her hair pulled or being shouted at in an aggressive manner.

In about the mid-nineties when the internet was in its relative infancy, we saw the lads mag culture starting. The tone of many of the articles about women were about "binning her if she won't take it up the arse", praising women for their "topiary skills" and pejorative statements and references to women who did not fit the physical ideal of being young, thin, shaved and beautiful. Older women were derided and if a pretty women was intelligent with an intellectual job role, this was mentioned as an after-thought.

The twin effect of this culture and the internet has I think had a pernicious effect on young men and women's expectations about what is acceptable in a relationship where both parties treat eachother with respect and kindness. This is not prudery. Even if living a polyamorous lifestyle, consenting sex between adults should at least involve mutual respect. However, if boys and girls read that it is acceptable to call a woman "bitch" and other epithets while having sex with her - and yanking her hair back to penetrate her mouth so deeply that she gags, there is not much respect going on there.

Through the course of my work, I have spent a lot of time with professionals who deal with the aftermath of rape. There is an increasing incidence of anal rape, penatration by other objects and a particularly noxious development in gang culture where a teenage girl (usually a vulnerable kid in care) is used as the gang's blow-job provider, treated as the personal property of those gang members.

Now against this growing disquiet, one incident finally brought it home to us as parents, that porn and disrespect to women is linked. A serious sexual assault took place by older boys on a younger girl at our DS's school. She was subjected to the hair-pulling I've described above and verbally abused throughout.

Now if you can't see a link between all this and porn, then as parents, we can.

Like you, my H and I used to be pretty liberal about porn and enjoyed it ourselves as a couple and as individuals. I think I used to think like you, that women who objected, had hang-ups and were prudes. Because we're in the habit of being very open and honest about our sex life and other issues, my H and I have discussed our growing unease with it over the last few years, particularly since our DCs are getting older. So this is where we're at - nothing to do with prudery or jealousy and everything to do with political and societal responsibility.

You seem very smug about your healthy relationship, but seem unwilling to accord the same respect to others' relationships. What you have admitted however is that you would be "very surprised" if your H doesn't use porn, which implies that you don't talk about it as a couple.

Your posts have the tone, I'm afraid of "I'm young, I've got no hang-ups about sex, I have a great sex-life and as long as I carry on like this, my husband won't be unfaithful like all these other prudish old feminists' Hs on Mumsnet. I mean what do they expect?"

What I'm telling you is that that is an unhelpful and offensive stereotype that I think you could usefully challenge.

With regard to the OP, I have already said that constant hypervigilance on the part of the OP is not good for her - or him. Your approach is to stop it or he'll have an affair and who could blame him?

My approach is to work on communicating about deeply held beliefs about sexuality in the marriage and the gender roles within it.

We are perhaps both right that if the situation continues, an affair or affairs might be the result. But for very different reasons.

Psammead · 14/07/2010 11:37

confusedabouthim if you are still reading...

As to how you can still stay married - I wouldn't advise you to get him to change his PIN etc because you just know that every time you see him look at his phone, you will suspect. Sometimes the suspicion is worse than the reality. I think this will just lead to more distance and the situation will escalate.

If you want my advice it would be to really communicate with your husband. Have a think about what would be acceptable to you. As AF said, there are different levels of porn. For me, texting and telephoning would be marriage-breakers, but I wouldn't mind my DH looking at pornographic images, for example. Try and think about whether any aspect of pornography is acceptable to you, write it all down and then explain your boundaries to him. Marriage is all about compromise, after all.

Encourage him to think about ways he can change his behaviour too, and ways in which you as a couple can change your sex lives in a way which is within both of your 'comfort zones'. You're a team - you need to tackle your problems as a team too, and find a solution which is acceptable to you both.

Good luck, I hope you can work it out.

Rafwife · 14/07/2010 13:15

I totally agree porn is way OTT nowadays, you can see some benign stuff however, but porn use is common I stand by that fact.

We do talk about porn as a couple I have no doubt he will sneak a peak at some point,I don't ask about his mastubating when he is away or check up, I don't need too, but he too has benign interests in sex, as in he is more likely to masturbate to a pretty woman on TV IMO. That just tends to happen as you get older or for those that tend to have their head screwed on and respect women.

My point of view and I suppose why it has pissed me off on here, is you can't think outside of the box or have a differing opinion without coming into criticism.

The thread in question was just an excuse to man bash in my opinion without really helping op at all.

Some people can't cope with porn no and they do find the whole thing highly offensive agreed but I really don't think op's reaction was normal or rational.

She took control of everything and spies on every aspect of his life and has done for years, is it any wonder they have issues?

I don't think it was fair of people to paint him as some sex crazed, addict who was abusing and controlling his wife.

When he has been controlled and spyed on for years for what was initally some infrequent porn browsing which is quite common.

Back again and full circle, I agree as I said right at the beginning she needs to go and get counselling with him. However Not paint him into some beast and shove all the blame on him. Half of these issues and the mroe recent developments are probably a result of years of hounding by op herself.

I don't think half the posts on here making him out to be an addict and some kind of controlling monster with op completely "blameless" are at all helpful.

She did not like it when she found porn no, but the years of hounding, spying and controlling by op instead of talking would have cause no end of issues as we have found it's gone from porn to phonecalls a coulpe of times a year as the net is on lockdown.

AnyFucker · 14/07/2010 13:52

Rafwife, my issues with your posts so far were not actually about your assessment of this particular OP's situation. I agree with some of what you say in that regard

It was more about the side issues wrt your rather naive stereotyping of older women as "prudish" and your rather simplistic idea that their husbands will inevitably "go off elswhere"

You can't make a statement like that and not get pulled up it, I am afraid

Are you in the RAF, just out of interest ?

Rafwife · 14/07/2010 14:01

I'm not no hubby is though.