how can we stay married?

[confusedabouthim]

Is it better not to concentrate on each others good points and not try and find out each others bad points? Sometimes i wish i had taken my mothers advice. insteadi know my husband was watching porn, calling sex chat lines, sending text chats to anonymous strangers, etc

i wish i could concentrate on the fact that he is kind, gentle, good mannered, fantastic with the kids, benevolent about my spending and lets me use as much money as i like, and works really hard in a high status high earning job and gives everythnig to me and the kids from it.

am i being a cow to wish he wouldnt relieve his stress in such ways?

should i just assume that no one is perfect and just stick to the good things?

should i just tell him to put a pin on his phone and change his email password and just make it hard for me to find out if hes doing anything?

is that the only way i can be happy in my marraige? what compromises am i supposed to make, not supposed to make?

how do i forget bad stuff and move on? how do i not see his bad side? is that the only way i can stay married?

Okay, I think we are brokering some agreement now Rafwife which is good!

I will very often say if I see double-standards on here that are anti-men, but I just want to sound you out about a few issues.

We are both agreed I think, that living in a state of hyper-vigilance and invasions of privacy are corrosive to a marriage.

But are we also agreed that the OP's H appears to have very skewed morality about female sexuality? That he perhaps sees female desire as "unseemly" in a wife and mother and cannot enact a fun-filled sexual experience with his wife? That perhaps he connects fantasy sex with "other women" and doesn't really see a problem with this, since all his male relatives feel the same, as do most of the poor OP's female relatives, it would seem .

Do you see that faith issues might have got in the way here, somewhat? But abandoned when it suited? That somehow the bit in the Koran about honouring women has had the effect of desexualising the married muslim woman, but not women outside of the marriage?

This is not to denigrate people's faiths, but the fact remains that religions of all sorts and misogyny are heavily linked.

Who knows when this first started, perhaps the OP can explain more? What does seem obvious is that this couple are hurting and that both their behaviours are demeaning to the other.

Asking the OP to stop invading privacy is reasonable, but asking her to relax her attitudes about porn, sex texting and sex line use is not. She feels disrespected by it and she's entitled to.

Asking the OP to stop this dance and get talking about her H's views on sexuality within the marriage, so that they both have some fun and fantasy within it, is a good thing. Being honest about fidelity and expectations is also reasonable. Marriages never become affair-proofed by having a happy, sexually fulfilling marriage alone. If only that were true.

They become invulnerable to infidelity by being honest about temptation and if both parties are completely signed up to never bringing hurt to the door, by communicating directly and honestly about threats to the marriage and not keeping secrets from one another.

And finally, can you acknowledge that a dislike of porn does not equate to sexual prudishness? That is is possible to be extremely open about sex and have a "filthy sex life" as AF so humorously put it - and still not like porn? And that not all men are the same and have the same stimuli? Or that an increasing number of men (especially fathers) are also questioning it like never before?

These issues are sensitive and complex I think and I know from my point of view, I reacted quite strongly to your "all men, it's a biological fact..." stance in your initial posts, as well as your assertion that women who dislike porn have "issues and hang-ups about sex". So I responded quite critically to that, as I tend to with any blanket statements that cannot be based on fact, since none of us know "all men", or the varying reasons why men and women dislike porn.

after WWIFN's very patient and considered post above, I am going to lower the tone and state that there is no way I would give much headspace to the advice on relationships from a woman who defined herself by the occupation of her husband

It sounds as though the poster's partner has got issues with intimacy in general from some of her comments. I would presume this is not especially uncommon. I suppose it would be due to a combination of personality (shy) and presumably the way he was treated by his parents and the type of role models they were.

I don't think that using porn per se is such a big deal (the difference between soft porn and erotica is lighting and I for one find erotica quite exciting, with or without my partner who could not care less whether I was secretly and fertively reading my erotica all day long, except he would much rather I shared it with him!!! Nevertheless the fact that I enjoy it shows I have a sexual pulse, when, sadly, some of our friends seem to have pretty much given up on this aspect of their lives.) Hard porn is another matter and if it is of a nature that is degrading - that would worry me.

I think the issue here is that the poster is having problems dealing with her partner's use of porn. There also seems to be a (probably connnected) issue of her partner's problem with intimacy. Sounds like counselling would be helpful to explore the issues further and hopefully come to some kind of arrangment that works for both of them?

Rafwife, take it from me, one (ex) Raf wife to another - not all men use porn (or even masturbate), just so you know.

I'm neither naive nor deluded, I'm not saying my DH has never seen porn , at 44 of course he has, he's simply not that interested, he's never bought a porn mag even when working away - if I gave him the choice of watching porn or watching Top gear, he would choose Top gear, he's not sexually repressed, doesn't think porn is disgusting, it's just not on his radar, plus I keep him more than busy on the sex front.

The older women on here prudish?
Nothing like good old stereotyping is there?

Regarding the OP, the relationship sounds far from healthy.

WWIFN I heart you

From my experience in my past job and working with many Muslim men, then yes I do think there is this divide between women/mum/wife/sex for sure.

I do also think that porn be it full on or more subtle is common and it's very commonly used.

I do think porn has become more rape like than it was say 10 years ago. But I also think the majority of men are level headed enough to respect that porn is not real and wouldn't dream of looking at their wife like that. Also there is still "normal" porn out there.

But yes I do stand by the fact men are visual creatures and they do get turned on by images and are more visual than women, hence why they are more likely to watch and enjoy porn.

Porn use is so widespread that it is my personal belief that it's a big ask expecting for it to be avoided for all eternity, even if it's a nudey mag. Those lads mags from what I have seen are more like what porn was 10 years ago.

My huge thing with op is I think she needs help, she obviously has major issues herself with self esteem and what not that need addressing, she also needs to address the issue within her relationship as the whole control thing is a disaster. It won't help as it hasn't happened here. I don't think labelling him a sex addict for some occassionl porn browsing was wise either. It putting the blame on him for doing something that is very common, not addict territory tbh. She doe say in this thread it has lead to her monitoring him for years and even then it's only now and then she finds it.

But no I don't think she should relax about sex lines etc at all, I just think if she had of been honest at the start and they talked about it at the start instead of spending years hounding him as a sex addict it may not have got this far. I think I answered all the points there.

Malificence you have described my hubby, he is not all that interested in porn either but I won't say he has never or may never encounter it in the future, that would be stupid.

I also don't believe he would never masturbate after months away, I sure as hell would not last long.

But the fact remains many blokes do use porn regularly it's the biggest thing on the net, no getting away from it.

A porn viewing a couple of times a year, does not make a demoninc, abusive husband or a sex addict and justify how he has had his privacy invaded IMO.

Anyfucker, I couldn't care less about how you think I have defined myself.

I am educated to degree level and could jump back into my profession tomorrow, I am able to financially support myself well.

I choose to be a SAHM currently as we can afford it and I want to, I am also proud of my husband, so talk about lowering the tone, someone who can't even think of an original name without swearing. Chav or Ignorant, I can't decide.

It needed saying, love

I also wonder if you will describe yourself as "old and prudish" when you have been married for 25 years

What needed saying that on an internet forum I used an id that I can remember but one that was not too personal for obvious reasons?

So by a forum name you have deduced I am somehow only defining myself by my husbands profession. Hardly this is not real life it's the internet, an internet handle and internet persona.

You'd do well to remember that and calm down.

If we want to start talking personal insults on internet a handle, yours screams drunken chav who will pick up the kids with a fag hanging out of her mouth in a tracksuit. But that would just be luadcrous for me to make such assumptions from an anonymous username.

Instead I'll just presume you are an internet bitch for the sake of it, strong life choice.

AF, I have to say that was a very undignified dig at Rafwife, being a military wife is something to be hugely proud of.

You due on or something?

I am perfectly calm, thanks

Re-read some of your opening "statements" on this thread and have a think why they might not go down well, if we are talking internet bitchiness

Hear hear, Rafwife!!!

"the majority of men are level headed enough to respect that porn is not real and wouldn't dream of looking at their wife like that."

Ah, but this might be the nub of the problem Rafwife. Perhaps the OP's H isn't level-headed enough and therefore the porn he engages in has a much more dehumanising effect?

And teenagers are not yet mature enough to be level-headed, yet this stuff is freely available at the click of a mouse.

And FWIW, I don't buy this notion that he only moved onto sex lines and sex texting because the internet was not available. There are a myriad of ways he could have continued to surf the net without his wife knowing. The problem I think here is that because he has some skewed ideas about female sexuality, the internet porn became a "gateway" for further boundaries to be crossed. And chat lines and sex texting are pretty big boundaries. I can quite see why the OP fears there could be worse to come, given his family beliefs.

Indeed he may not be level headed enough to tell the difference, it's why they both need counselling togther to sort it out, end the years of harassing and spying and mistrust.

As at the moment it could just be a case of he got caught spying on porn and now has the huge sex addict lable for doing something which is quite mainstream.

She'll only find out if they go to counselling together.

I happen to believe that in this day and age (and by that I mean the age of technology), it very definitely is easier to cheat on your spouse. There is simply more opportunity, more means for deception and more exposure to the seedier sides of life. 'Tis just the way it is.

None of that excuses infidelity of course but in order to keep up with the times, perhaps those of us who are after monogamous relationships should loosen the reins when it comes to porn?! Okay - chatting and camming with real people is taking it into the realms of the dangerous and should definitely be avoided. But a bit of redtube?! Not the end of the world IMO.

Plus, the best way to remind hubby that you're a desirable being is to become one!!! Make mention of someone flirting with you or asking for your number (whether it's true or not) - I bet you get some that night!!!

OP - try relate...

confusedabouthim - I can see that your thread is going to be a little bit de-railed into a porn discussion!

This is about more than porn though, isn't it? "calling sex chat lines, sending text chats to anonymous strangers"

Hopefully you'll be able to pick out the good advice.

Rafwife it is good to get different views on MN - freedom of speech and all that - but you'll need to respect that most posters (I think) are not going to agree with you.

When I first started lurking on MN I was quite aghast at some of the relationships threads and the whole "leave him"/"abuse" - etc etc - but I have no experience in this area - I lurked and learned.

And do you know what - it is fucking shocking what women are going through in relationships. I am learning more and more about Feminism - reading up on the Home Office report on "Violence about Women and Children" and all sorts of things and my thoughts on posts such as OP's are informed by that.

I can now see the patterns in various relationships threads. Also info will tend to come out in bits and pieces and you have to read between the lines.

There are others who post here who have all the sensible advice for OP so I'll leave that to them - but I think that I can recommend this website called stop porn culture - I think confusedabouthim will find it very useful.

PS - yeah AF took a little pop at you - but really it was quite funny - as you were have a pop at not just a lot of men who don't use porn but you were also making sweeping generalisations plus I found your casual acceptance of porn disrespectful to the women who are trapped in that industry.

Oh and for what it's worth I do not agree that "The Sun" is nothing.

To be it is shocking that in 2010 there is a widespread national newspaper that objectifies women in this vile way.

Do not even get me started on The Sport.

Yeah yeah you'll say it's "just" pictures - but really in a National Daily Newspaper FGS - it wouldn't happen in an Equal society.

Anyone else who feels uncomfortable with objectifying women - see Object.

PS - yeah AF took a little pop at you - but really it was quite funny - as you were have a pop at not just a lot of men who don't use porn but you were also making sweeping generalisations plus I found your casual acceptance of porn disrespectful to the women who are trapped in that industry.

What a bandwagon jumping load of shit! Just because the poster who insulted the other poster is probably quite well known around mumsnet, it doesn't mean she had any right to say what she did (even if she didn't agree with rafwife). I didn't find it funny. I thought it was unnecessarily aggressive and rather hypocritical. Are you brown-nosing to get in with the crew or something?!

Perhaps somebody else else could pick Elzy up on this little gem, please...

"Plus, the best way to remind hubby that you're a desirable being is to become one!!! Make mention of someone flirting with you or asking for your number (whether it's true or not) - I bet you get some that night!!!"

PS - yeah AF took a little pop at you - but really it was quite funny - as you were have a pop at not just a lot of men who don't use porn but you were also making sweeping generalisations plus I found your casual acceptance of porn disrespectful to the women who are trapped in that industry

Oh I see because you read a thread throughly and develop an opinion on it which may differ from the mainstream, that excuses someone to single out your username for a personal pop at your potential personality.

Shame I can't find that thread where that poor cow who was outed recently, my first ever thread that I saw on MSNT. Bitchiness just for the sake of it.

Elzy I agree with you tbh.

We are talking about women's rights - porn - men looking at porn - men and women's right's to look at porn and the problems we have in this patriarchy we live in.

The way I read AF's comments was a wry dig at the fact that RAFWife - was describing herself in relation to her husband - and that sort of thing is normal in this misogynist world etc!

or is that "brown-nosing the crew"

Elzy...what are you talking about? I don't think RafWife needs you to stick up for her, just like I don't.

Also, I was just about to come back and apologise to RafWife for my dig. Not because of your input though.

RafWife, I hope you will accept my apology for jumping on your name. It was un-necessary, of course your opinion is as important as anyone else's, so for that I am sorry. I was banging on about the sisterhood on another thread, and have realised that what I said was shitty and completely contradicts my usual stance.

Rafwife - I think that your insistence that porn is "normal" and "all men use it" - despite posts to the contrary plus implying that women who don't tolerating porn are a bit prudish - is just as bad!

Tabouleh, yes you are right.

But it doesn't matter.

I am apologising to RafWife and I mean it unreservedly.