Moll flounders again - H wants more contact with DD

[MollFlounders]

Me on here, looking for advice again. I left my H nearly a year ago and posted a lot about that (I'm the person whose H said I needed to have a nose job and threatened to punch me; unrelated incidents...). H is an unpleasant, manipulative and controlling person who took no interest in DD when we were still together. He was emotionally abusive towards me and nearly destroyed me. If it hadn't been for Mumsnet, my parents and my counsellor (who I'm still seeing) I don't know how I would have found the confidence to leave.

Anyway, H has been seeing DD fairly regularly for the last 6 months or so (she is now 19.5 months). He comes over one night per week to my place to "do bathtime" and he meets her one day during the week for lunch. These are the arrangements he has requested. By "do bathtime" I mean he sits there and watches while my nanny gives DD her tea, bathes her, puts her PJs on etc (I stay out of the way on these nights).

A few months ago H said he wanted to start seeing DD on weekends. I suggested he start for a few hours one afternoon- take her to the park etc. He did this for two weekends and then just stopped. One weekend he said the traffic was too bad (London marathon). The next weekend he said he felt sick. And the next weekend he just didn't come. He then didn't pursue any further weekend contact.

Anyway, H has now called me saying he wants to have DD to stay at his flat for 3 nights per week. I am pretty uncomfortable about this. I know that what's important is DD, but this seems too drastic for a child of her age- to go from seeing her father for a couple of hours a week to suddenly being at his house for 3 nights every week. Especially given that he has never actually taken care of her- either before or after I left. He has never prepared her food, never given her a bath, never dressed her, never even really changed a nappy.

In H's usual delightful way, the conversation was full of veiled threats. He hopes we can reach agreement on this very quickly, otherwise....

This has all come totally out of the blue and I admit that I'm having an emotional reaction where all my fear of H is welling up again, after so long of feeling strong. I just don't trust him at all- he is still the same manipulative and cold person he was a year ago. He claims to have made great progress with his counsellor, but I see no change. I'm convinced he has persuaded his counsellor that he is the innocent victim here. He certainly seems to believe so.

I would appreciate any words of wisdom and practical suggestions for how to deal with this. Thank you.

He's still being peculiar, isn't he? My view is that she is far too young for over-nighters with a parent she hasn't really got to know, but I don't know what's considered normal for a child that age. What does your solicitor say?

Good to hear from you Moll, sorry it's for this reason.

Ah they never stop do they? And they wait until just enough time has passed that we mistake them for normal people. In UnlikelyAmazonian's legendary phrase, they're mad fuckers wearing normal jeans.

You know you've answered your own question in your OP don't you? He has to buld up the time, do more domestic stuff and show he actually has the practical skils to look after a wee one.

And that's what I suggest. You write to him (stop talking to him on the phone, woman!)suggesting this and ask him to send you a timetable in writing. Put the ball in his court and do it all in writing.

Now my ex was super weird and controlling, but yours has the edge on mine. We never speak, everything is by letter or text and he is legally is not allowed in my house. Boudaries, boundaries - it's the only way.

They will always try it on, it still annoys me. But at least I'm no longer the Queen of Denial...

Do you have a contact or residence order?

You obviously need to see a solicitor but if it helps, in the same way that he can demand to see her more, you can also say no.

I don't think it would be in your dd's best interests to be around somebody so harsh, critical and manipulative, to be honest, and that's without his lack of practical skills.

Keep it in writing, say no, and involve your sloicitor. Keep talking to whoever helps you stay strong too- make sure you keep your parents in the loop, and come here whenever you need to. You've done so well so far, great to hear it! (BitOfFun here btw, I posted on your old threads)

Hi Annie, Queen- good to hear from you. I do have a solicitor (I went to see one at the time of the punching incident, about this time last year) but haven't spoken her to a while because nothing's really happened. I'll call her tomorrow. You're right about not talking to him- it's always just a hiding to nothing. Chandra - no orders in place. When I left, I just took DD as there was no way I was leaving without her. He has never challenged that and we are not yet formally divorced. Thanks for the reminder about saying no. You're absolutely right. I need to get over my fear of saying no to H. I thought I had. I guess I need more practice...

Hello BoF- I should have picked you from your name. It seems obvious now I know... nice change though. Thanks for the advice, then and now.

Sorry you have a difficult time with your ex H.

I am all for children seeing their fathers - they need to be able to form a strong bond with their parents as in the end this forms a well developed person. Our responsibility to our children is to ultimately make them a good & honest adult.

However in this case I suggest you remain in control over what happens. I agree that 3 nights a week is too much to start off with.

Why don't you start off my writing your wishes down and what sort of relationship would benefit your dd. Then with your ex visit an counsellor/intermediary and agree a plan with a timetable of visits increasing over the next 3 years to 3 nights a week.

I would also suggest that a 3 strikes (i.e. -he actually turns up!) and he goes back to the beginning of the plan. From what you've said he appears to not be able to handle the responsibility of being a father yet.

You are very strong and am sure that you will find a way

Good luck.

BTW if he has not really been involved in the life of the child and he is as abusive as he is, it will take even for CAFCASS to be involved before a court agrees to increase his contact time slightly. 3/7 nights is far too big a jump to start with.

Stand your ground. And don't agree to anything unless you are totally convinced it is in the best interests of your DD.

LIke scooby's three strikes idea, that will work brilliantly in a situation like this.

BTW, don't you ever consider going to mediation with him. Mediation is not suitable for couple who have a history of problems of domestic violence (physical or emotional).

Thanks everyone. Thanks Scooby for your advice but re the joint visit to a counsellor/mediator- Chandra is right. I know I would stand no chance in a joint session. H is unbelievably manipulative- he is highly intelligent and extremely eloquent, with a very forceful verbal delivery. He prides himself on being a master tactician and negotiator, and he is. He is a practiced master at "poor me, I'm so offended, everyone else is so unreasonable". From what he tells me about his own counselling, he has his therapist tied up in knots.

Nice to hear from you, Moll!

I like what the Queen said - definitely write to him (and keep a copy in case he does decide to go to court) so that you can express yourself clearly.

Keep it simple - say you are responding to his request to have DD overnight and that your response is the same as to his previous request to see her at the weekends - namely, that it is appropriate to build up to higher levels of contact reliably and consistently. So your offer for him to have her for a few hours still stands, although he currently isn't availing himself of that opportunity. (If he isn't sure where to take her, perhaps visiting a few of the many, many churches he turned to for solace would be an idea )

Stress how important it is to move at the child's pace and to respond to her needs, and to that end, to show how willing you are to facilitate the development of the father and daughter bond, you will pass the responsibilty for her care to him on his bathnight. And then give your nanny the night off.

I don't know the background so I take your point about the mediation thingy - I know what thats like (long story).

The letter idea is a good one and Tanga's suggestion to pass responsibility on is a good one - cos obviously he needs to learn that.

It'll go one of 2 ways - he'll learn to be responsible and become a good father or alternatively he'll learn he can't cope and leave you alone.

I suggest you also keep a record of each time he lets your dd down, then if it does get messy you have proof.

Off to bed, but for those of us that know your story, Tanga's post about the churches made me LMAO! I'd forgotten all about that.

Tanga - you're so right about passing the responsibility on his bath night.

And Scooby, thanks. The two ways are right. I'd love to see him become a great father- there would be nothing better for DD. You never know. The practical suggestions about keeping things in writing and building up to higher levels of contact are exactly right. And Tanga made me with the churches- thank you!

Hi Moll! Good to hear from you again, and see that you are doing well, although disappointing that he is still such a twunt.

I like Tanga's suggestions. Whatever you DO, keep and eye on how you feel, and don't let him control you emotionally. Never respond quickly, always take your time so that the shitty emotions his fuckwittery stirs up have dissipated somewhat and don't taint your responses. Stay logical, unruffled, unbothered - even if you are jumping up and down screaming inside.

Just wanted to say a supportive hello, from someone who remembers what you went through. Oh, and by the way, I have just left my controlling partner and moved into my new place! It can be done, we are living proof that although these tits try and mess with our heads on a regular basis, they will never win and never succeed in crushing us. Remember, keep calm and carry on

Hi Moll - great advice here, just wanted to say I'm glad to hear things are going well for you and your DD.

Hi too to Vicky - glad to hear things are going well for you too - good for you!

Vicky- am so pleased for you. And thanks a lot for dropping in. You gave me fantastic advice last year. I really appreciate it, and am so glad things are working out well at your end. Thanks inveterate as well.

Hi Moll, glad to hear you are doing well and thriving. Remember that this man is a total shit and you do not have to obey him. He can threaten all the court action he wants, but with his track record it won't get him very far - and no court would order 3 overnights a week with an abusive unreliable father. Talk to your solicitor so you have all the relevant legal info, keep commuications with him to email and, as others have said, tell him he's got to show willing and display more competence before he gets any overnights with DD.
Oh and don't go for mediation, mediation doesn't work with abusers.

I hope that you will be divorced from this abusive and not just to say narcissistic man asap.

Narcissists as well are well averse to therapy and do not respond to it at all.

I would contact your Solicitor asap re formalising any contact arrangements between you and him; he will keep on wanting to push all the boundaries you put in place otherwise. It will always be thus, he will always be this bloody difficult if not more so.

No more talking to him on the phone; infact I would only now let him communicate with you through your Solicitor.

Let him threaten all the court action he wants (common tactic that as well employed by narcissists); he won't get anywhere with that. This is all being done to further intimidate you, he is using your child to further punish you for leaving him. He does not really want her at all for three nights really, he is not interested in her so much as using her to get back at you. Abuse is about power and control.

Moll, just wanted to add to the chorus of support and strength for you. I remember your posts from last year. I particularly remember that the title of one of your threads was along the lines that your (then) DH wanted to split and wanted custody of DD ... of course he didn't actually want custody, he's proved that over and again.

He is following the same tack now - as Attila says, he is using your DD to get at you and to try and control you. Perhaps he's forgotten that it didn't work last time?

Stay strong and keep your distance, do it all through legal channels and in writing.

Hi Moll, I've been wondering how you're getting on! Some good ideas on here - I like Queen's idea of asking him to put a timetable in writing and scooby's "three strikes and you're back to the start" rule.

If he does go to court, he will almost certainly get contact amounting to every second weekend and one overnight. There may be a period of shorter contact leading up to that. With no practical experience of caring for her, he would be very unlikely to get 3 nights per week. Courts would prefer to keep the status quo. It's quite hard to convey to a court that a person has been creepy and odd and controlling, and even if you do successfully convey that, it's still not enough to block contact - not that you're trying to do this.

If it's any comfort, my ex is rather similar to yours and seems so far to be doing a pretty good imitation of a doting father. He adores the admiring gazes he gets when he plays with her in public. I worry a lot about how things go when they're not in public, but so far DD (2.7 years) is generally keen to go to him.

What Attila said.

With pricks like this, everything has to be done formally and involve the law because otherwise it's just another way to try to manipulate you.

Let us know how you get on.

I'd formally apply to divorce him, too.

And no more phone.

Also, log everything. ALL the dates he arranged to come and then didn't. All the times he actually showed up. What he did whilst there (nanny can back up he does nothing). Conversations.

Everything.

Glad you got away and stayed away from him.

He's a real sack of it.

Moll I've no useful advice to add - just what everyone else said!

Glad that your and your DD are doing well though!

He is playing on the fact he can upset you.
Go to court and get a binding legal visitation order set up.

Please do not let him upset you.