Moll flounders again - H wants more contact with DD

[MollFlounders]

Me on here, looking for advice again. I left my H nearly a year ago and posted a lot about that (I'm the person whose H said I needed to have a nose job and threatened to punch me; unrelated incidents...). H is an unpleasant, manipulative and controlling person who took no interest in DD when we were still together. He was emotionally abusive towards me and nearly destroyed me. If it hadn't been for Mumsnet, my parents and my counsellor (who I'm still seeing) I don't know how I would have found the confidence to leave.

Anyway, H has been seeing DD fairly regularly for the last 6 months or so (she is now 19.5 months). He comes over one night per week to my place to "do bathtime" and he meets her one day during the week for lunch. These are the arrangements he has requested. By "do bathtime" I mean he sits there and watches while my nanny gives DD her tea, bathes her, puts her PJs on etc (I stay out of the way on these nights).

A few months ago H said he wanted to start seeing DD on weekends. I suggested he start for a few hours one afternoon- take her to the park etc. He did this for two weekends and then just stopped. One weekend he said the traffic was too bad (London marathon). The next weekend he said he felt sick. And the next weekend he just didn't come. He then didn't pursue any further weekend contact.

Anyway, H has now called me saying he wants to have DD to stay at his flat for 3 nights per week. I am pretty uncomfortable about this. I know that what's important is DD, but this seems too drastic for a child of her age- to go from seeing her father for a couple of hours a week to suddenly being at his house for 3 nights every week. Especially given that he has never actually taken care of her- either before or after I left. He has never prepared her food, never given her a bath, never dressed her, never even really changed a nappy.

In H's usual delightful way, the conversation was full of veiled threats. He hopes we can reach agreement on this very quickly, otherwise....

This has all come totally out of the blue and I admit that I'm having an emotional reaction where all my fear of H is welling up again, after so long of feeling strong. I just don't trust him at all- he is still the same manipulative and cold person he was a year ago. He claims to have made great progress with his counsellor, but I see no change. I'm convinced he has persuaded his counsellor that he is the innocent victim here. He certainly seems to believe so.

I would appreciate any words of wisdom and practical suggestions for how to deal with this. Thank you.

Another thought - the demand for 3 days a week is almost certainly a negotiation tactic. He is starting high (higher than he wants) so that he has room for concessions.

It's perfectly possible that he will negotiate a chunk of contact simply because it is his "right" (and with an eye to reducing any maintenance he fears you will seek) but in practice won't bother taking all the access he has negotiated.

He doesn't want more contact with your DD at all, he wants you to be upset at the thought that he has the power to force your DD away from you.

I agree with all the advice already given on here, and am pleased to see you are doing well and still have support of family and counsellor. Keeping a log of everything is very wise in case he does take it further, however as he cannot be bothered to turn up for contact on a weekend it may be that he doesn't bother pushing for more. OR on another tack, he may have seen you are being more than reasonable in terms of what you are offering eg seeing DD for lunch, a bathtime evening and a weekend, has seen this isn't upsetting you and is unsettled he is losing power over you so is wanting to remind you and himself of how creepy and controlling powerful he is

I remember your threads, I was aboardtheaxiom back then - it's lovely to see you are doing well.

Bloody 'fathers' like this get right on my boobs!

Everything people are telling you here is true. He sounds like he's on a total control trip - my ex does the same sort of thng, once he realises his silly games don't bother me he turns it up a notch because he is determined I ought to be punished for disobeying him and his family by leaving.

It's taken me a long time, but last week I self represented against one of his ridiculous applications to the Court and I won (Yay me!)

Anyway what I mean, is get over the 'Can't tell him no' thing as soon as you can (if even it makes you feel wobbly, you will get stringer and stronger every time you do it.

3/7 is utterly unlikely as a contact arrangement for a 19.5 y/o littlemad wasn't even having one overnight at that stage because hi's 'father' (or SpermDonor as we affectionately refer to him in our family) was being SUCH a dick and tried to be clever with CAFCASS.

Keep calm, think of the long game and keep recirds of everything, ask him for a timetable of how he proposes to increase contact to his 3/7 nights, that'll stump him.

...oh and sorry for ranting a bit....just cross for you!

How bizarre. I don't know your circumstances or his, but I read somewhere that the other parent doesn't have to pay child support if residence is shared 50/50 ...

Of course, the idea is absurd and he's doing a great job of proving he couldn't be trusted with the pet hamster, never mind a toddler. Do document all his undertakings so far, and his defaults on same. Also, do provide an incremental contact & care plan - and document his defaults on that, too. If your solicitor isn't bolshie enough, fire her and get one with big boots. Don't speak to him, especially if you're prone to fall for his wordgames!

Detach, detach, detach. Good luck

(wrote this when the server shut down, sorry if it's now out of dat!)

Hi Moll, this is my first ever post on mumsnet and I've only looked at it for the first time today I have an 18 month old girl, and an ex-boyfriend who has contact with her 3 nights a week. It works because his mother looks after her on 2 out of 3 of the nights too.

I went to see a solicitor for the first time last week after he requested FURTHER access so he has her for 7 nights out of 14. The solicitor said at the age she was when I left, he is very lucky to get overnight access and the arrangement we had was a reasonable one, a court would be hard pushed to find a better arrangement. Please, please go and see a solicitor, do not allow any more access to your daughter than is necessary for her to establish that her father exists and I agree with previous posts - make sure EVERYTHING is recorded, he has to deserve to spend time with her (I love the 3 strikes idea but I would make it 2!) and do not speak to him on the phone, do everything by email or letter so that you have a record. I refuse to speak to my ex because I feel bullied and emotionally drained by him and do everything by email which frustrates the hell out of him but it works for me.

I have no idea of your history but stand your ground. I went to see 2 solicitors to get a balanced view and they both said the same. I can see from comments made so far that there is an abusive nature to this person, this will count in your favour when it comes to agreeing to limited contact, but only if you choose to use it. DO NOT put anything in place temporarily, it will be so much harder to change it back, keep things as they are until you can seek advice.

Hi everyone. Thank you so much for all your support. I can't tell you how much it means to see so many familiar "faces" back here, and some new ones too. To those I know (sorry, I'm going to go all sentimental now) - I will never be able to express just how important and transformative your advice was for me last year. I think about that often. It has been wonderful to call on your help again. Thank you.

Ok, well enough schmaltz from me. I just got off the phone from my solicitor and I feel very reassured. She confirmed that there is no way a court would enforce the type of contact H is looking for. She said that what could well happen is that a court would order that (on top of the existing arrangements) he would also get to see DD for, say, 4 hours on a Sat or Sun. She'd be very surprised if a court would order even one overnight stay at this stage.

She also advised that a court might want to review arrangements in 6 months time or so and, depending on how things had gone, might then look at an arrangement where H has DD from Fri pm to Sat lunchtime, or something like that.

Anyway, the bottom line is that it seems it is reasonable for me to say no to H's request. I am going to write to him and say we need to agree to a weekly schedule. That will be bathtime on X night, lunchtime on Y day, and 2 hours on Sat. The same days and times every week. I'm not going to rush to write to him, either. I'll do it this week but I'm not jumping to his tempo.

You've galvanized me into being angry at his fuckwittery rather than emotionally undone by his power-freakery!

Moll

Would respectfully suggest that you ask the Solicitor to correspond with him rather than you. Any weakness you show to him he will ruthlessly exploit.

This is not about you or your child; it is about his will to prove a point, to want to be right but mainly to punish you further for having the gall ( as he sees it )to leave him. I would not let him look after a goldfish let alone your DD for any significant length of time.

He is not afraid of you and he is not above wanting to manipulate your further by pressing buttons. If he is narcissistic (and personality wise he seems certainly narcissitic) then he needs to hear from someone whom he could well be afraid of i.e your Solicitor.

You are going to have down the law very firmly with this guy with no room for manoeuvres as he is bloody devious as well.

Will he change - no is the short answer to that question. He will always be trying to prove that he is right and that you are wrong. It will always be thus.

Thanks Attila. I will think about that. He's not afraid of me. And the penny finally dropped last night: I realised that he doesn't respect me. At all. I know it will seem bloody obvious to everyone who has read my other threads, but respect is so basic that I suppose you just assume it's there. Unless someone is so rude to you, so dismissive, so patronising, so unpleasant that you realise that they just genuinely don't respect you. At least I know that's his issue now- not mine.

I mentioned somewhere on another thread that I've recently started seeing someone else. I can't tell you the contrast. He is just lovely. I have known him for a long time, and he is kind, thoughtful, gentle, considerate, interested and interesting, funny- and he genuinely cares about me. And DD. I was thinking about him while speaking to H last night. I was thinking: "H, you have NO idea. And you never will."

lots of good advice there...my ex is wanting to go from no overnights (aprt from one sat to sun night last week he forced on dds and they have said they dont want to do it again...) to "i will take them away to visit my father in xx country for two weeks this august".

duh...

if i could trust him with them sure - but i cannot...

D'you think the new man is the reason for this attempt to control you then? Just a thought.

And also, I'm very glad to see things are going well for you Moll, well done you!

I'd also talk to your solicitor about divorce procedings. You don't need or deserve to a person like this.

I'm glad to hear that things are generally good for you now, Moll.
I don't have any further advice to add than what you've been wisely told, but I just wanted to wish you well and say i've been thinking about you and your DD since your original thread.

take care xx

Good Luck Moll.

I'm having to face my ex in a tribunal with someone similar to your ex.

Its hard cos they are very convincing but we can stay strong together.

Let us all know how you get on.

Good Luck babes
xx

Hi everyone, me again. Just posting on here for support as much as anything else. I last popped up in June when H said he wanted to start having DD stay with him 3 nights a week. Well, nothing has really happened since then. I said no, and that he needed to build up to overnight stays, and suggested (in writing) a constructive plan for him building up a relationship with DD such that overnight stays would be appropriate. She is now 22 months, by the way.

Anyway, H has done nothing to take his demands forward- despite having threatened to sue me for custody back in June. He's also been pretty casual about his access to DD- he went away for 3 weeks this month, without telling me in advance that he was going, let alone where he was going. When he's away like that he never even sends a text to ask after DD.

I now have virtually nothing to do with H. I see him twice a week, when he comes to my house for one bathtime and also on Saturday afternoons to take DD for a walk. I'm ok with this, as I know I need to act normal with him for DD's sake- while obviously not participating in any other dynamic he might try to pull me into. (My therapist has given me all sorts of ways for dealing with interactions with him, and they're working well.)

The problem is the way DD responds to him- and how he is starting to react to that. In a nutshell, she isn't happy with him and he seems to be starting to resent that. So, for example, on Saturday afternoon when he came to get her to go for a walk to the park, she was sobbing hysterically, trying to hide (she hid behind the door crying and wouldn't come out) and had to be carried away by him- while still sobbing her eyes out. He does nothing to comfort or distract her, and basically wrenched her out of my arms, saying to me "you really need to do this quicker". This has happened on each of the times he has taken her out on Saturdays.

And then, last night at bathtime, I (as usual) crept into the house and went and sat very quietly out of the way so DD wouldn't realise I was there. However, after her bath, I could hear that she refused to let H carry her up to her room. She ran away from him, ran into my room and saw me, and then got very upset and was crying for mummy to put her to bed. H's reaction to this was to go up to DD's room and basically sit there and sulk. He was actually angry with DD for calling for her mother. My nanny and I worked together to distract DD so she could be taken upstairs to see H but, according to my nanny, H then ignored DD and wouldn't talk to her because she was still crying and saying "mummy, mummy, mummy". After my nanny left to go home, I could hear H sitting up in DD's room in total silence: not talking to her, not reading to her, just sitting there sulking.

This is exactly how H used to treat me when I did "something wrong". And now he's doing it to a toddler. I know I shouldn't be surprised, but I'm still shocked- and pretty sickened. I'm worried about the effect this could have on DD- not to mention the fact that she now seems to dread spending time with him. My nanny said that when H arrived for bathtime, DD thought he was coming to take her away again- and she was again sobbing and trying to hide.

One of the problems is that H makes no effort to engage or interact with DD when he sees her. According to my nanny, he just slumps around on my couch while my nanny feeds DD her tea, tidies her up afterwards, takes her to her bath etc. During the bath, he just sits in the bathroom and watches. I have also (discreetly) followed H to the park a couple of times to see what happens when he is with DD alone. Again, he just lies back on the grass. Last time I watched them, I could see H stretched out on his back in the sun while DD innocently ran around the park chasing pigeons.

I just don't know what to do. Does anyone have any ideas as to how I can try to make this all less traumatic for DD? One thing I do is to try to pep her up before his visits e.g. saying "Daddy's coming to see you! He's going to take you to the park! etc" to make it clear that it's all really fun and positive. This doesn't really seem to work. It would be better if it wasn't me that did the handover on Saturday, but I don't have anyone else to do it (no family here or friends close by). I have thought about whether I should just stay away from home on "his" bathnight, but I feel more comfortable being there in the house- because I don't trust him. And also, my nanny needs to leave work 30 mins before DD goes to bed, so if I wasn't there he would be in there alone.

I am trying to get in to see a child psychologist but everyone is on holidays. I keep thinking about H grimly pulling DD out of my arms while she cries- and how he refuses to comfort her in any way. I remember him saying to me last year, before I left: "I don't do support". I think he might also have said "I don't do kindness". That's fine (well, it's not, but you know what I mean) to say to an adult. But to treat your own small daughter like that?

(By the way, I do log all of this.)

Sorry this is so long. Thanks a lot if you got through it.

i think you maybe need to have contact happen elsewhere - maybe hand over in the park (or libarary/play centre/soft play in winter).

why should he do bathtime and bed at your place? convenince wise yes - but it gives him insight into your world/home and dd needs to get used to reality which is two homes....

she has maybe sussed this is your and her place now and he is the outsider - so naturally she wants mummy. if contact took place at his place or elsewhere then no associations with you?

depends how concerned you are about his (lack of) interaction - is it safe them going to park and letting her roam free? does he watch her or not?

maybe a contact centre would be better?

or have the nanny take her to meet him?

Oh dear, he really is grim, isn't he? I think I remember from one of your old threads how when DD was just born he would talk about not "spoiling her" by things like, oh, kissing her when you came in from work etc, and her having to learn to queue behind him for your attention (that was you, wasn't it?) I found it chilling then and it was obviously an indication of things to come.

It just sounds like he has no idea at all of how to behave with a child. As if he's spending time with her to make some kind of point, rather than that he has any desire to do so or any enjoyment of it. Likewise with the overnights, what on earth does he want her for, what would he do with her? Nothing at all, by the sound of it. But it's his right. Or something. Good thing he isn't making any practical steps in that direction, as I doubt overnights would be a good thing at all at her current age.

I'm sure you're right to try to make her outings with him seem positive. That way they'll be less traumatic for her, and if she cries less, he may reward her with warmer treatment.

Contact centre sounds like your best bet. He needs to be supervised by people he feels like he has to perform being a good dad for, because clearly the opinions of you and your nanny are not important to him, and certainly he doesn't appear to give two hoots about your DD. The whole 3 days thing was clearly a gambit to get a rise from you, given his behaviour since. The problem with this is that if he sees that his indifferent behaviour towards your DD is getting a rise out of you he'll just do that instead, so do not try to cajole him into anything or he'll play up to it. Just arrange his contact at a contact centre and inform him of it.

Your DD is probably having some perfectly normal separation anxiety issues, coupled with your ex's lack of any kind of care or interaction, her behaviour is totally normal and understandable. Honestly, if there was some random guy who turned up to watch me eat dinner, bath and play at the park a couple of times a week without even trying to engage with me in any way I think I'd find it a little anxiety inducing too!

Gah, he is a real prick, isn't he?

I think your idea of a psychologist is a good one.

After her/his assessment, you may be able to push for supervised contact.

Yeah, agree with expat, you're right to consider getting a child psych involved. Not so much because your DD is behaving abnormally, but just so you can get supporting letter for supervised contact.

Thanks everyone.

expat - yes, he is a total prick. Not a day goes past in which I don't rejoice that I left him.

dizietsma - you're right about him needing to have an audience for performing the role of good dad. He has no respect for either me or our nanny. He has meted out the stonewalling/sulking behaviour to her as well e.g. once she was late to take DD to meet him for lunch because DD did an exploding pooh (sorry) as they were leaving the house. H did not speak to her or make eye contact with her for the entire lunch.

Annie - yes it was him that said that I had to greet him/give him attention first when I got home from work. He definitely has no idea as to how to behave with a child, but I think even more than that: there is no way he would adapt his behaviour to accommodate DD. His mantra was always "she has to fit in with us". And one of the arguments we had before I left was about whose needs were greater; H's views were that his needs should be prioritised over DD's (who was, at that stage, 8 months old). He needs to make a point- I'm now pretty cynical about him, and I think this is all about power and control, with very little about love. I no longer care what motivates or drives his behaviour- except to the extent that it affects DD, in which case I care more than anything.

C'estlavie - I do think that breaking the associations with me would help the contact. His place isn't set up at all but neutral ground is probably a good idea, at least for the Saturday contact.

I think what I'll do is try and get in to see a child psych as soon as I can and hold off from making changes to the contact arrangements until then. I'm reluctant to change things without having some sort of professional/objective backing behind me. My instinct is that there is a strong possibility that H's anger and resentment about how the current contact is going could well trigger him bringing custody proceedings, so I always need to have that in mind.

You are dealing with someone with NPD here so you need to fight fire with fire.

He has no respect for your child either; he is just using both you and your DD (you are both narcissistic supply) to exert control over you. He is a typical narcissist in that respect and all his behaviours are typical of such people.

I would be talking to your Solicitor again asap and get that divorce petition finalised asap if it is not already.

I would also in future formalise all contact and do so only through a contact centre; no more of him visiting your house for instance. Your idea of a child pysch is a good one but I will still have any contact formalised through such a centre via the courts. I think your DD when she is old enough will not want to see her father at all but that will be her decision solely to make.

He's a fucking psycho. Contact centre all the way, and get yourself divorced ASAFP.

Glad to hear you and DD are both thriving otherwise :) Onwards and upwards.

Thanks Attila and cyteen. Cyteen- you made me laugh. My mother said something very similar earlier today....

I know it doesn't really matter, but do you really think he has NPD? The only reason it's of interest these days is to best prepare myself as to how to deal with him in relation to DD. Forewarned is forearmed etc etc (although I am forewarned as I know he is, most comprehensively, a complete dick).

I know we can't "diagnose" him, but I have wondered about NPD. He fits some of what I understand to be the symptoms, in terms of lack of empathy, feelings of entitlement ("how dare you?" was a common refrain), and being absolutely unable to deal with being criticised- or his perception that he's being criticised (he would often say that I was "relentlessly persecuting" him).