Moll flounders again - H wants more contact with DD

[MollFlounders]

Me on here, looking for advice again. I left my H nearly a year ago and posted a lot about that (I'm the person whose H said I needed to have a nose job and threatened to punch me; unrelated incidents...). H is an unpleasant, manipulative and controlling person who took no interest in DD when we were still together. He was emotionally abusive towards me and nearly destroyed me. If it hadn't been for Mumsnet, my parents and my counsellor (who I'm still seeing) I don't know how I would have found the confidence to leave.

Anyway, H has been seeing DD fairly regularly for the last 6 months or so (she is now 19.5 months). He comes over one night per week to my place to "do bathtime" and he meets her one day during the week for lunch. These are the arrangements he has requested. By "do bathtime" I mean he sits there and watches while my nanny gives DD her tea, bathes her, puts her PJs on etc (I stay out of the way on these nights).

A few months ago H said he wanted to start seeing DD on weekends. I suggested he start for a few hours one afternoon- take her to the park etc. He did this for two weekends and then just stopped. One weekend he said the traffic was too bad (London marathon). The next weekend he said he felt sick. And the next weekend he just didn't come. He then didn't pursue any further weekend contact.

Anyway, H has now called me saying he wants to have DD to stay at his flat for 3 nights per week. I am pretty uncomfortable about this. I know that what's important is DD, but this seems too drastic for a child of her age- to go from seeing her father for a couple of hours a week to suddenly being at his house for 3 nights every week. Especially given that he has never actually taken care of her- either before or after I left. He has never prepared her food, never given her a bath, never dressed her, never even really changed a nappy.

In H's usual delightful way, the conversation was full of veiled threats. He hopes we can reach agreement on this very quickly, otherwise....

This has all come totally out of the blue and I admit that I'm having an emotional reaction where all my fear of H is welling up again, after so long of feeling strong. I just don't trust him at all- he is still the same manipulative and cold person he was a year ago. He claims to have made great progress with his counsellor, but I see no change. I'm convinced he has persuaded his counsellor that he is the innocent victim here. He certainly seems to believe so.

I would appreciate any words of wisdom and practical suggestions for how to deal with this. Thank you.

I read all your other thread before but didn't contribute.

About the NPD. I wondered the same thing about my ex he fits tons of the criteria but he would never "sulk" with his kids or treat them the way that your idiot ex does.

Someone explained it on here as NPD being a Spectrum Disorder, so no one person will fit all the symptoms iyswim. I don't know if that helps or not.

Fwiw he certainly sounds like he is to me, the ignoring thing is shocking and the kind of thing my Mum would do who is unquestionably NPD.

I suspect that his interest in your dd will wear off even further as time goes by (my Mum was happy not to see her GD for the first two years of her life because she had the hump with me about something). I don't think he will go for custody, too much like hard work, he can barely be bothered to turn up now can he? He is just using these threats to keep you in line.

Never mind the label for what's wrong with this shitbag. He's a KNOB, that's what he is. Get your solicitor to write to him and say that in future contact will take place at a contact centre because you don't want him in your house any more and if the contact centre report that he is bullying DD like this then contact will stop altogether and he can go fuck himself. Treat this man at all times with the contempt he deserves and don't let him bully you.
The fact that he has bullied the nanny and bullied your DD in front of both you and the nanny means that you have another witness to what a complete shitbag he is. Remember that what he wants is UNIMPORTANT. DOn't waste a second worrying about hurting his feelings. He has proved that he's as unfit a father as he is a husband, and the less contact either of you have with him, the better.

Knob is a pretty good label...

...but SGB is right about the contact centre. He won't be able to bully or treat dd abusively there without consequences AND it stops him being at your house which is nothing to do with being a Dad to your dd and all about being able to control and check up on you.

Does he know about the new man in your life?

I think I would say no and not just no but a well you tryed to build up time and failed and never turned up.

Sorry but soemtimes with agressive pondlife it is best to attck back instead of lying back and taking the shit - he will be suprised and just watch the show and tantrum - that form your ex the tantrum.

Oh and don't worry about winding him up or being the bigger person - they don't understand that language anyway so don't even bother worrying about it

Souds like you are well and truely out of that one - well done

Hi everyone, thanks for your support. Especially dittany and SGB! My lawyer is back from holidays tomorrow so am going to speak to her. DinahRod- no, he doesn't know about the new man. I've kept it low profile, so none of H's friends would know, and there's no evidence at my house. However, it is just a matter of time as DD is very taken with the new man and says his name a bit- but only someone who knew what to listen for would get it

definitely contact centre.

good luck moll. your dd is so lucky to have you.

Thanks warthog- I really appreciate that. Even though I've given her one of the world's prize wankers as a father... My job is now to protect her from the consequences of that.

Maybe it's about time you went on the offensive again? It would be to protect dd primarily but, having managed to encroach upon your home under the guise of visiting dd and to affect your lives so detrimentally again, when he learns about new man I feel he will up the ante as he has marked his place territorially and still feels he has rights and control over you.

So cutting off the oxygen of your emotions and reactions which he seems to get off on is a good idea; your solicitor and contact centre could remove you from the picture and him being a twat in front of contact centre staff is a whole different scenario.

have a look into local contact centres and visit them - some eg you can only get two hours once a fortnight, some are more supervised, some just a room with volunteers - try www.naccc.org.uk/

you do need to be careful - but you culd present it as - contact is not working out at your house due to dd's distress -and you have right to be in your own home when you wish.
so you are proposing xx contact centre on xx alternate saturdays 2-4 pm (or whatever) as you are very concerned about your dd's stress and think it in her best intersts that contact is at a neutral location that is safe.

would your nanny back you up re DD's distress?
not sure if saying "he sulks in the bathroom" "he doesnt interact much " would actually count as bad parenting... but clearly in a centre he would have to make more effort or it would be noted...

having my exP visit the dcs in my new home so i could monitor was the biggest mistake i made, to be honest, and even friend with more "normal" divorce (no abuse as such or severe MH issues) also cut the bathtime/bedtime with daddy at her place (also with toddler) as it just was not working for her/him/dd...

you cannot continue to have him coming into your home to see DD, look towards a future when yes new man is around, what then?

use your dds distress now to change this, from next week...

Moll, nice to see you again (you won't remember me, I was very new when you were going through all of this) and I'm so sorry things have remained difficult.

I am at this idea that he just sits and watches while your nanny does dinner/bath/bed, how creepy. And kudos to your nanny for putting up with that, too - if there weren't already a myriad of reasons to get this formalised and try for supervised contact, the risk of losing her over this must play into it as well. Further down your list of concerns, but still.

I do think getting him out of the house is key. My daughter is the same age as yours - turns 2 at the beginning of December - and having a routine and known people around her is so crucial to her happiness. I tend to do bathtime just because it falls out that way (I work alternate days, and her bath night falls on my work days, so I want to give my husband a break because he's had her all day and also spend time with her) and when it happens that he does bath instead - my lord, the wailing, the gnashing of teeth. But if she's at her Nana's house, she accepts a different routine right away. So having him come into the house, but not often enough for her to anticipate it, is probably making it worse.

I know that's not the issue here - the issue is that he's a controlling selfish dirtbag who doesn't deserve his daughter - but on a purely practical level, and just because almost-2 is a difficult age in this respect, getting his interaction with her off your turf is key.

Good luck, and please do keep updating.

Moll, as you know our exes are very similar and I have self-diagnosed mine as NPD. Whether he is or not, it gives me a useful framework for anticipating and dealing with him. My Mum very much is which I think is why it seemed familiar (albeit wrong) for so many years.

I would go zero tolerance for two reasons. Firstly, he will always push the boudaries and you need to have them firm and inviolable. As the others have said, don't try and be a bigger person or consider his feelings. Secondly, I think your DD is at a crucial age and I would sort this out now before she really hits pre-school age and the patterns get established.

She is starting to show anxiety (largely as a result of the strong and positive bond between the two of you) and I think you need to separate your and her home from the Daddy-daughter time. I too think he may well drop out of her life at some point in the future, mine probably will as well. I focus on building my daughter's self-confidence and belief to give her the grounding this dysfunctional relationship will throw at her.

You have already turned the situation around, just keep at it. What has helped me is just accepting he's never going to really go away and I've added his twattery to my mental to do list. It's not fair, but for me it's just the way things are.

Glad you have a new man (quite jealous), hope you're having fun!

Hi Moll. Good to hear from you

I think you need to consider, purely from a practical option, the options. More than likely, your ex H will have contact with your DD in some form or another and it's only in very very extreme situations where contact is stopped.

If you moved contact to a contact center, he would see this as a power play and humiliating; having to see his DD in a public environment, and he can get very nasty.

But more importantly, contact centers are usually quite busy, noisy and chaotic with lots of parents/children/visitors etc. It could be upsetting for your DD at 19 months.

If her nanny goes with her for contact, effectively contact is being supervised and she wouldn't be in a room of strangers. Plus you also have more control in that the contact center volunteers will not disclose what happens during contact to the resident parent.

strongly agree with queeen - separate your and her home from the Daddy-daughter time .

as I said, i allowed contact in my home for similar reasons (to be able to monitor) but it was hell/it became untenable due to his behaviour...

now - when things go well with contact - at his place - well that is fine.

but if he hits a major MH crisis / gets abusive again or other issues (oldest dd very ambivalent about contact) - then our home will always be safe place now untainted by him. we can shut the door.

you do need to think longer term....he may well flit in and out of her life - it really sould not be linked with your safe secure home that you providing for her.

concerns about her safety etc - contact centre or supervised by someone else outside your home is the way to go. tho without a major incident occuring i am not sure how easily you will get him to accept supervision.... tho clearly he quite happy to sit and watch the nanny do the work...

why isnt his flat suitable?

my experience of contact centre was not a busy place - only at most one other family in large room with loads of toys etc. so centres clearly vary.

this was properly supervised contact tho - not volunteer run. i did get feedback each time from the superviser. reports/contact sheets were made for CAFCASS. voluntary arrangement using volunteer run centre could be different.

if he is acepting of nanny taking her to see him then fine - maybe she can do some extra shifts or has friend who would do some saturdays? but longer term - what?

There is supervised contact and supported contact. Supervised is usually when there is a court order in place and usually means CAFCASS report, possibly social services intervention and reasons why the non resident parent cannot be alone with the child. There is a person in the room at all times, a person available to take the child to the toilet, and to communicate with the resident parent. Supported contact (contact centers run by volunteers) is more available and one can self refer, but there is usually a waiting list and they are very busy places.

At the moment, the OP and her ex have an agreement with no court orders in place, so to that extent, there is greater flexibility. And if she goes down the road of asking for supervised contact, of course this is an option, but since the nanny is going with her DD anyway, is there a good reason for supervised contact? I don't know.

i think the nanny is not there on the saturdays?

and she is coming home to cover the half hour between nanny leaving and the dad leaving.

so moll you dont trust him or do you? you ok with him taking her to park?

Hi everyone, sorry for the radio silence today. I've been stuck in meetings at work. Some very helpful and constructive suggestions here.

A few things to respond to. First of all, I don't trust him and I do feel safer having the contact in my house. dittany is right with her question on that. And that applies on a few levels. I don't trust him at a practical level because he has virtually no experience of looking after DD, either on his own or with my nanny. He has never done any of the parenting things like nappies, feeding, general caring etc etc. And he doesn't "get" what it's like to be with an active toddler - i.e. that you don't just sit down a read a book and tune out, that you have to keep a general eye on them, that they can go from playing with blocks to trying to climb over the balcony in about 5 seconds, and all that stuff. Cestlavielife - I worry about his flat in that respect because its main feature is a big glass balcony overlooking the river, with lots of lovely ducks and geese swimming below it. DD is extremely tall for her age and is a big climber. That would worry me a lot.

And I don't trust him with her emotionally. I have fought against that, because I never wanted to assume that his crapness as a husband meant he would be crap as a father. But he has shown that he is unwilling to provide her with any warmth or comfort and, in fact, her distress and moods make him angry and resentful. I guess I just feel safer when they are both under my roof, even though I stay away.

I really do feel at a bit of a brick wall at the moment. Everyone who says go to a contact centre: I completely understand why you are saying that, but H will take that as being a power play and humiliating as ilovemydog says. I'm not sure I want to push that button right now. I don't have anyone else who could supervise Saturdays; I could ask my nanny to do an extra shift. Maybe that's one solution. At the moment, I don't feel hugely comfortable with him taking her to the park by himself- mainly because it seems to distress her and her distress provokes him.

I've just been speaking to my lawyer this afternoon and she has given me a referral to a child and family therapist. I'm going to try to see them as soon as I can so I can get a better understanding of the options and how I can make this better for DD. My lawyer also suggested we email H and say that I'm not happy with how things are going, I'm going to consult a child psych for help, and in the meantime he should see her only in my home and while our nanny is there. I do know that flies in the face of everyone saying break the connection with home. I know I will need to re-think that and it's one of the things I'll talk to the child psych about.

Thanks so much for being here, and for all the thoughts.

Sorry this is a bit garbled; I need to collect my thoughts a bit more after work.

the referral sounds good.

i do see why you want to continue in your home for now. tho not sure what he gets out of the visits?

as she gets older, it will be easier in some ways but you are right in that it would only take one second of non-attention in a potentially dangerous place (balcony, pond) for something to happen...

Thanks dittany and cestlavie. He has so many issues he would, if he genuinely wanted to look at himself, need to unravel. He did go to therapy at one stage last year, but he used it to justify his behaviour and to identify me as a "monster".

I think I mentioned in one of my original threads that a few years ago he burst into tears once out of the blue and told me how much he despised his parents because they hadn't given him anything. He meant by way of support for his development, and he gave self-confidence as an example. He said that everything he had, he'd had to teach himself. And that he would resent that for ever. He was speaking with biting vehemence and bitterness.

While his father died long before we met, his mother is a complete doormat but also totally self-involved and has a way of imposing herself on every situation by being so extraordinarily passive in relation to it. Tragically, she was abused as a child by her stepfather- locked in cupboards for hours etc - while her half-siblings were treated well. So there are some extremely dark and unresolved issues there which must have damaged everyone in the family in some way.

I don't know what H gets out of the visits to DD. I truly think that a big part of it is that he can't let go because he would see that as me winning. Sometimes his friends come along when my nanny takes DD to meet him for lunch. Apparently he lies continuously about how often he sees DD, how involved he is in her life, war stories about changing nappies. All complete fabrication. He is really fucked up.

I'd feel sorry for him if he hadn't nearly broken me, and I'll be damned if he'll mete out the same treatment to DD.

I know, she really is a blessing. And she and DD are so close; it's a joy.

I was so angry when she told me that he'd stonewalled her over her being slightly late to meet him for lunch (due to an exploding nappy scenario). Not to mention how he treated her on Monday night. The lack of respect is breathtaking.

Hi Moll, I'm quite new to mumsnet as well, but have read this thread with interest. My ex partner was verbally and emotionally abusive whilst we were together, and he dumped me whilst I was 3 months pregnant, he didn't want me to go ahead with pregnancy. Now he visits only once a month, and is now taking me to court to get unsupervised contact and overnight visits (DS is only 7 months, XP has only visited 7 times). I've been to solicitor, and am also planning on taking psychologist to any initial meetings.

I'll be very interested to see how your situation pans out, and whether your XH really pushes for what he wants through court, or drops it.

My XP lies ALL the time about everything - he recently told his solicitor that he had WANTED to visit more than once a month but that we had made it impossible for him. Blatantly not true as I knew he would eventually lie about his visits, so have sent him many texts and emails telling him he can come more often.

How do you deal with your XH's lying? At the moment I'm wasting money paying my solicitor to respond to his lies!