Playfighting going too far

[secunda]

DP has always said that he would stop if he was doing something sex-wise that I didn't like, and this is generally true. However, he doesn't seem to realise that it's just as important with playfighting. A few times now, he has got carried away playfighting (wrestling, tickling, biting) and not stopped despite me yelling at him. He only stops when I burst into tears out of frustration. But then he feels so bad afterwards that it really casts a shadow, sometimes for days, and I end up being the one feeling guilty. Recently he criticised me for 'having a go' about it, I think he felt I was overreacting, even though I tried to explain patiently that he probably didn't realise his own strength, etc. It feels like I am being 'punished' for saying something.

It really bothered me for a couple of weeks afterwards, and brought back the anxiety I suffer from sometimes. I also wondered a bit whether it was my fault, as I have let him know that I quite like him to take control in sex, although I NEVER say no when I don't mean it, so I don't see the need for a safe word or anything.

He always says it won't happen again, but sooner or later it does. He is very lovely in all other ways.

sorry i ignored the op there....think your being totally manipulated. id get out. quick.

Can I try putting it another way, Secunda?

Being loved makes you happy. It increases your confidence. It lifts you up when you feel down, it nourishes and supports you. Love cheers your successes and sympathises with your failures. It makes you independent, but not alone. Being loved enhances you.

My ex told me, with contempt and incredulity, about a friend who broke off her engagement because her fiance "didn't love her enough". I remember trying to tell him I thought she had a point - but he didn't get it. I thought, then, that I should follow her example ... I didn't like her, though, so I didn't. I was wrong.

But he does make me feel like that 99.9% of the time, Grace. He is uber-supportive of my career, remembers if I've had a doctor's appointment or important meeting, brings me little presents etc. If I ditched him over this I feel I would be losing a lot more than I would be gaining. It has only really bothered me the one time he did it twice. It's just one time, and we did 'make up' afterwards and it wasn't a massive crisis.

I will be watching him like this

Plus - I have a moral compass? Cool.

secunda...i think this bothers you more than you realise,why else post here about it? it bothers you,you know its wrong....but now you seem to be minimizing it,as deep down,i think you know its time to end this.

Secunda, I am sorry to say you have managed to rationalise yourself out of a problem...this thread has come full circle

You wouldn't have posted in the first place if this issue was only 0.1% of your relationship

Head in sand ring any bells ?

Carry on reading, carry on posting

Get the Lundy Bancroft book and read it cover to cover

We will always be here, whenever you need to be listened to

But I do think you need to listen to yourself and your alarm bells a bit more...they are there for a very good reason

I am good at rationalising myself out of problems. Obviously it did/does bother me, which is why I posted. I wasn't sure whether I was overreacting or not, and now I know I'm not so if he does it again it's a dealbreaker. But I may have made him realise last time so he won't do it again. I will read that book. It's only since lurking on mumsnet that I've learnt about emotional abuse and gaslighting etc.

"I put up with things I'm not really into because I don't want to be boring. He always says he doesn't want me to do anything I don't want to, but seems to find it hard to remember in the heat of the moment"

Secunda, please stop rationalising. 1) Do not put up with anything you are not into. You are who you are, please try to love yourself as you are.
2) No one forgets in the heat of the moment, especially someone who remembers all those other little things like Drs appointments or little presents.

In all probability this man is feeding on your need to loved and your lack of belief in yourself. These "little things" he does for you sound very controlling, you are being groomed. 4 times in 2 years is alot. Some of the stuff you've said such as him coming inside you when you don't want it is just horrible.

You deserve better, you are worth better. Control and abuse do not equal love. The kindness will diminish and the control will grow. Please get yourself some support outside of relying on this man.

Holy fuck, people.

Secunda, while I understand that you think he just accidentally goes too far, here are the really concerning things to me:

You are doing sexual things that you're not comfortable with because you're afraid of being boring
The time that he came in you when you'd asked him not to? Sexual abuse.
You've described the 'playfighting' as including biting.
The whole 'going too far/apologising/swearing it'll never happen again/then it does' cycle is absolutely classic abuse. Really. And the next stage in that cycle is when the abuser stops apologising and swearing it won't happen again, and instead starts saying that it's not a big deal, the victim is overreacting, and/or the victim made him do it.

Sound familiar?

And look, there are only two other posters on this thread who agree that 'playfighting' is normal:

ChickenPsych, who describes her partner as getting to the point "where he punches me quite hard in the arms and legs and yesterday stabbed me with some keys."

And Amylyons, whose partner "often kicks me out of bed in the mornings (literally) to make the breakfast, does that whipping tea towel thing and has on occasion held me down and pretended to spit in my face or stopped me entering a room without a password. He thought it funny".

Look at that. Look at the company you're in. All three of you think your situation is better than the other two.

What does that say?

Jesus, you poor, poor women. And Amy, your poor daughter. She is being abused and, yes, almost definitely raped by her father.

This isn't playing. This is deadly serious.

I can assure you that if I thought there was the remotest chance that my DD was being sexually abused, we would be seeking non contact injunctions more quickly than you could say bedsitland for DH.

Unwanted touching IS abuse Amy, re him pinching her bottom, not allowing her to leave a room before hugging him ect, and certainly climbing into bed with her despite the fact shes making a racket about it.

Oh I don't know, it's a lot to take in all at once. I feel quite shakey and ill about it. I do see everyone's points. It was the OTT apologising and making me feel bad that I first saw as being emotionally abusive, but at the same time he very easily feels rejected and I think maybe that's why he overreacted. I've come up with some tactics: sticking to vanilla sex, if he even begins to playfight say 'No' firmly straight away.

I had forgotten about the coming in me thing, as it was over a year ago. I told him beforehand that I didn't want him to, as I had just had a coil put in and I thought that it would be better if it was allowed to settle down before anything was, ahem, introduced to it. Afterwards I said 'you said you wouldn't!' and he was like, oh sorry, but you won't get pregnant so it's OK.

Amy, if only two of your posts about your husband's behaviour towards your daughter has made us all horrified and terrified for her safety, what does that say to you?

It's absolutely not normal father-daughter interaction. I know , we have a daughter who has been through those tender teenage years and my DH would never have interacted with our DD in that very creepy way.

Your husband is behaving like an abuser, my brother in law behaved in a similar way towards me in my early teens, the creepy, jokey, inapropriate touching, coming into her room when she's sleeping and playfighting is exactly what he did to me, does her father make her kiss him on the lips by any chance? Does he comment about her in a sexualised way?
At the very least his boundaries are very blurred and he is treating you and your daughters like his possesions.

Secunda - you are clouding the issue by talking about stopping non-vanilla sex ( as if you think it confuses him or something?), you can't trust him to treat you properly, he doesn't respect your boundaries or your concerns - his behaviour is wrong full stop.

was abit shocked to see SGB's suggestion that there was a very very strong chance that al's dh was sexually abusing their dd.
Now, don't get me wrong, their is serious cause for concern with both al and Op.
but accusing someone of sexualy abusing someone,is a very very serious accusation. based on what appears to be not solid grounds, is quite an assumption.
Just felt I had to say that.

Ob: bottom-pinching, enforced hugs and unwelcome cuddling in bed are sexual abuse.

Secunda, I know this is a lot to take in, but can I point out that at least two posters on this thread (Malificence and I) partake in some S&Mesque sexual activities ourselves. So we're not just being vanilla and shocked, here.

I do think it's a good idea to cut out the non-vanilla activities since you are so clearly uncomfortable with them. But it's not the only issue.

Amy, children this age love their parents, and don't have the words or, often, the perspective to know something is wrong. I know she's a teenager, I know she's articulate and smart and all of those things, but she can't necessarily tell you that the boundary issues exist. This 'play' forcing her to kiss him, cuddle and wrestle, it's all wrong.

Amylyons 'I am going to re-inforce the concept of DD's personal boundaries with her, and perhaps even try to talk to DH about it (even though he will think I am mad to consider it an issue, I feel emboldened by learning that many of you also think it important.....my own father was pretty difficult to live with so my idea of boundaries may be a bit hazy).'

This is a cop out. It suggests that you are holding your DD to blame. You are afraid to bring things up with your DH because he will question your sanity. If you are afraid of your DH, how do you think your DD's feel?

Please protect your DDs by standing up for them.

When I was younger I had a boyfriend who was into 'playfighting' - squeezing too hard, wrapping my hair really tightly round his finger etc and not letting go when it was clear that I was in pain.

Fortunately I was young and the relationship didn't last, but the whole thing was deeply weird and over 20 years later I sometimes have nightmares about being in that situation again. And the guy who I saw turned out to be an oddbod. From what I heard later the 'playfighting' escalated to full on physical abuse with his next partner.

Amy - I have daughters who are a similar age to yours. I also teach teenagers. My DP would just never, ever behave that way towards them. It's deeply concerning behaviour and if one of my pupils complained that her dad was behaving in this way it would be a CP issue.

You need to tell him straight out that what he is doing is wrong. It's not fun or wacky - it's plain fucking creepy.

I think some people are too quick to shout "abuse" these days but Im sorry i agree with everyone here that nipping a 13 year old girls bum and climbing into bed with her is wrong, innapropriate and ABUSE. poor kid must be terrified. home is where you are supposed to feel safe. dont be suprised if she does a runner if you let this continute.

I quite like playfighting with DH sometimes - because I can pretend to fight him while he fends me off and it usually ends in a cuddle. Thing is, he knows he's stronger than me so he doesn't actually pretend punch or kick me, he just defends himself. If he punched or kicked me (except in the bum) he would hurt me so he doesn't.

It's very childish to carry on until you hurt the person - and very worrying behaviour in an adult, and shows poor impulse control.

sorry, didn't phrase my post very well. i objected to SGB assumption of abuse. this was made prior to OP's further post, that then went on to make it clear, with the bum pinching and the getting in bed etc, that this was actually the case.
what i meant was , not that we didn't know whether abuse , but we didn't know if penetration had taken place.
but tortoise has now said that dh has probably raped her. this, i think, we do not know. and is an assumption.

but anyway, i ought to step away.

Oblomov, the fact that the DD has anorexia, is unhappy with her father's behaviour, asks him to stop and he doesn't do so, are all very strong indicators of abuse. Now the OP is saying that this vile man keeps getting into the DD's bed despite her objections.

Amy, you posted 'my own father was pretty difficult to live with so my idea of boundaries may be a bit hazy'. This may explain why you are coming across as in such denial of quite what a disgusting human being your H is. Sadly abusers like him have a radar for women who have already been abused (as that post rather suggest you have) and who are vulnerable.

People are saying its abuse because it IS. Dangling someone upside down when they clearly dont like it isnt on, would any of you put up with this ?
Would you put up with your boss pinching your bum, not allowing you entry to a room without a forced hug, or climbing into your bed for a cuddle against your wishes ?

No? What about a neighbour then ? A freinds husband ? Any one of the above scenarios would equal abuse, i think some posters, including the op, are unable to recognise this because the perpetrater is her own father and its happening in her home.

And it seems theres a problem recognising abuse when it happens within a family.

And i agree with Mitfordsisters, you are copping out and making your dd deal with a very unpleasant situation which she probably doesnt have the skills to deal with. As she says, if your afraid to raise this with him, how on earth do you think your daughter feels.

What would your advice be to a poster on here who perhaps had to stay in a hotel for work with a boss who kept trying to get into bed with her and was pinching her bottom ?
This pervert would be out of my house right now.

Amylyons, I see you are deleteing some posts. Fair enough but please don't feel that you can't come back on / talk about this to get support for your daughter and yourself. Hopefully most of the reactions here to your familial situation may help bring some clarity to your situation and how to resolve it.

oblomov...I feel your discomfort too....but there has been at least one other thread about the inappropriate behaviour of amy's partner with her dd

complete shock and unanimous condemnation of it was displayed on that thread too

it seems that amy isn't listening and is certainly a frozen bystander to something happening that is very far from normal