Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Still suspicious of possible affair, months on....

102 replies

loves2walk · 13/05/2010 18:18

I have posted my situation here before a few months ago under 'How do I tell if my DH is having, or about to have an affair' and I'm just back now for more advice.

Nothing has changed - briefly my DH admitted an attraction to someone he works with and socialises with, a single woman with 'boundary problems'. He then spent a couple of months being odd, secretive about his phone, cranky with me and DSs, emotionally detached from me and not intimate, aggressive a couple of times and very very stressed. Said it was all work and there was some truth in this, and we were also moving house. However he would be really cross if I questionned him going along to an out-of-work event that she was involved in - like drinks after work or football, he just would not allow me to express upset about those things and dismissed me as being 'ridiculous'. So I stopped mentioning it and quietly gritted my teeth, as I wanted the bad atmosphere to go away, not to make it worse.

So after loads of fabulous advice on here I tried snooping and did not get far at all. No idea of email password, blackberry blocked, no evidence on visa cards. Nothing. A RL friend suggested looking him in the eye and asking him to be honest and tell everything - she does not get him at all. He would not admit an affair as he has too much to lose. He loves me, loves DC, has been through 1 marriage breakup already and does not want to go through another. So I believe he stopped the affair to protect his marriage and family. BTW we were great before this started - happy, regular sex, every friday night out as couple, even a few nights away on own, so not a marriage in trouble at all, I didn't think.

BUT I am now struggling to get over this and let him back in. I can't be the same with him. I don't laugh genuinely at jokes, I can't connect emotionally with him and I don't want him to touch me. If I tell him why, he will deny everything so I feel there is no point opening up to him.

So I have carried on snooping and was really hopeful that I could get into his blackberry to read txts and emails. Then I did. I found his password in an old filofax of mine and I had an opportunity with him out and his phone left behind to go through it. My heart was pounding. I saw loads of boring work emails, quite a few friendly warm txts but nothing incriminating. The friendly txts were very cosy and intimate even but nothing that would show any inappropriate behaviour and if I mentioned them to him, would make me look paranoid and blow my cover and make him hide even more from me. Atleast he is relaxed enough to leave his phone lying around. But both txts and emails stopped showing beyond a few weeks - there was no way to scroll down further. I know he clears out his in-trays so I am now realising this is not the answer I hoped it would be. I can't think of other ways to find out for sure and am wondering how other people have found out about affairs. Short of getting him (or her!) blind drunk, then asking for confession I just feel stuck

OP posts:
loves2walk · 14/05/2010 16:23

I know they sound like nothing to get worked up about and it's hard to describe why it bothers me. Most of emails were work related and nothing inappropriate. Most of texts were related to football, where Dh was present and OW wasn't so he was keeping her updated. But for instance one said from her to him 'you mischief maker...' and there was nothing else - so I was left wondering what was all that about.

These are all by the by really - it is, as you say, the lack of care about my feelings and lack of empathy that is the major problem

OP posts:
dittany · 14/05/2010 17:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SeasideLil · 14/05/2010 17:37

I haven't read about pinning your son to the wall before and personally am twice as concerned about that than about his infidelity, alleged or not. If he's dismissive of you and aggressive to the children (beyond the odd snapping point of shouting or marching them upstairs, even my husband who is patience itself has got to) that's not very nice and I'm more inclined to agree with those who doubt him. Plus a history of infidelity only makes it worse...

loves2walk · 14/05/2010 18:01

I do see how serious the aggression has been, dittany and seasidelil and I don't underestimate it. AFter that morning, which was horrific and way over his usual grumpy, snappyiness, I phoned a psychologist - sort of friend from way back, about the level of anger in the house- well his, and whether he needed anger management counselling. Obviously didn't mention affair issue just a dad loosing his cool with son. She thought I needed to state clearly it was unacceptable and must never happen again and make this open within the family so DS to be involved in conversation and apologies etc. But she felt a one off incident was not sign of a person in trouble or needing counselling or having an anger management problem. We talked about the ways he is a good dad and role model in other ways, and overall it was a very calming conversation. That is probably why I don't feel outrage about it, and we did address it and the level of anger in the house is now reduced so much, there is just tired snapping after being interrupted say, or not doing as told after several tellings, that sort of normal exasperated thing. I don't feel panicky about that. Now.
But I suppose he is controlling, I can see that without a moment of hesitation. And I have allowed myself to be the more flexible, easy going person which now looks as though I have been controlled.
I feel our main problem now after all these posts is that we are not equal. We are not, I do not have the same say, or power, or freedom in the relationship.

OP posts:
dittany · 14/05/2010 18:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

loves2walk · 14/05/2010 19:07

You're right dittany, this is no way to live which I why I am trying to figure out what it is that is wrong first, then what to do about it. Seems much clearer online than when living it for real as you can easily get caught up in a situation and it becomes normal over time, that plus the fact that I hardly have any time to think. I work part-time and have early school finishes and just hardly ever take time out my day to reflect.

MN really helps me in that way.

He is controlling and controls whole family. If I am being totally honest, me and both boys are both more relaxed and happier when Dh is away. I wonder now whether I love him as much as I say I do. Funny, saying that 3 months ago would have had me shaking my head, saying no way, I totally love and adore him. But today, I just wonder if I really do.

Going to mull that one over during boys bathtime.

OP posts:
dignified · 14/05/2010 19:08

I agree with the pint / what a loveley thought comments, that really doesnt sound right at all. The saddest thing of all, is that you do not have the most basic rights within your relationship, the right to be heard and to speak freely. You are denied the basic right to express your thoughts and feelings , instead your forced to swallow them down as it might make him angry. Prisoners have these basic rights , whilst you do not.

Im sorry your going through this L2walk , ive been there and i sympathise.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 14/05/2010 19:12

loves2walk I sense you are feeling very low right now after all this comment and I do want to point out that you stood up for your DCs and made it quite clear that you wouldn't tolerate that sort of behaviour towards them. From what you tell us now, that behaviour has stopped. You did get him to see that he was behaving like a complete bully and he accepted that. You asserted your boundaries and he made some long overdue changes.

dittany · 14/05/2010 19:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

loves2walk · 14/05/2010 19:58

Thanks both of you. I think maybe the lack of basic right to express myself is me, choosing to bury myself in relation to this topic. Not in everything, so I appreciate your comment WWIFN that I do on other occasions, assert myself. I do get my voice heard about other issues - I make sure I get a reasonable amount of girlee weekends away - 2 every year isn't bad!

But this isn't right, my fault or his, it isn't right. Bully is the right word - I have told him that several times and he doesn't exactly disagree. He obstructs what he doesn't like, he doesn't often accept he is wrong and argues the toss about almost everything. I used to like it actually, I used to think we had masses of healthy debate about everything and other people, like my mother, used to laugh about how much we talked - never made decisions without going over all options and weighing them up. Myabe all this time he has been getting his own way and I didn't really notice as i never really minded whether we ate chinese or indian, or whatever.

I do drive him mad with my inability to get off the fence and make a decision, so there are 2 sides to this.

OP posts:
dittany · 14/05/2010 20:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 14/05/2010 20:16

I would also ask what you are both teaching your children about relationships here. I would also say he is obstructing you and you sound far too good for him. He just wants to drag you down.

Controlling behaviour is abusive behaviour.
He has and continues to act like a bully and you've become completely subserviant to him. This is at heart all about power and control.

Would ask you what his parents relationship is like; what did he learn from them exactly when growing up?.

How does he really feel about your two weekends away each year - does he give you any verbal crap about that either before or after you return?.

I feel you are paying a high price and he is not worth it.

loves2walk · 14/05/2010 20:39

Oh god don't get me started on how he makes me feel about my time off. Will just fuel this anti-DH line and then I'll get all defensive about him.
But one time I was leaving him depite him with a stinking cold, a really bad one, totally blocked up, needing to head to bed etc, but I felt this was my weekend and i have to cope when ill so he just had to get on with it, so on way out door as I kissed him he said 'you had better enjoy it' through gritted teeth. I pulled back and said 'WHAT??' He said, 'oh nothing, I just meant I hope you enjoy it.' Yeah right, the threat was there and he wanted me to feel bad.

My first spa day with best friend when 1st baby was 5/6months old, so only few hours really, he said 'so, exactly WHAT time will you be back' in a really pointed, cross way. And I said in a pissed off mocking way 'your first day off DW after giving birth, please take your time and enjoy it. Well, thanks' I was mightily pissed off at that as it had the desired effect in that I felt stressed all the way home wondering had I been out too long.

I could list his good points as otherwise you'll wonder what an earth is in it for this woman, but I won't here. He has them though, millions, in the not-too-distant-past he has been able to make me cry with laughter, he loves fully, demonstratively and affectionatively and he has the ability to make me feel so special. Seems a long time ago now....

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 14/05/2010 21:09

loves2walk,

Thought he gave you a hard time about the weekends away, this is precisely why I asked that question. Again that in itself is controlling behaviour on his part.

"Why does he do that?" written by Lundy Bancroft is all about controlling behaviour. Its well worth a read. Controlling men are angry men too.

You need to carefully consider what you and he are teaching your children about relationships. Is yours now really the model or sort of relationship you would want for them as adults?.

Look at this in the cold light of day. He does not make you feel special now though does he.

dignified · 14/05/2010 21:19

L2walk there are several books you might want to read. One is why does he do that by lundy bancroft, and the other is living with the dominater by pat evans. Both are just a few quid on amazon, or if you cant get hold of it i have a copy i can send you.

There are also several websites that might help you. The focus isnt on what he says or does, but on how those things make you feel. You say you get two girlie weekends away a year, and you seem gratefull for that, but Compare that to how much time he gets on his own, regular social outings, football ect, is it really enough , or fair ?

Men who are bullys are usually bullys in other areas too, we often just dont notice. What is the division of labour like in your house ? Is there equal say in financial matters? Does he feel entitled to sex ?

Not trying to aggravate you, just wondering how things are in other areas.

loves2walk · 14/05/2010 23:22

Just had a good friend over for wine and nibbles. Couldn't help wonder though, how good an act I must put on when she said 'oh you and Dh just seem so good together'. I wouldn't have used it as a chance to open up to her though as she was visiting to talk about a recent family bereavement.

Anyway, dignified, it's really kind of you to offer to send books. I will try my library first or amazon then if not. That and gaslighting, I need to read about. If this is what's going on I do need to do some reading to help me work out what to do. Because it is not that easy to imagine how i get from this point to the point I might like to be at, i.e. no dominating H in my life. Other people might just say 'kick him out' or similar but the reality for me is that I can't just do that. He thinks there is no problem. The DC think there is no problem. My parents hope there is no problem (though I suspect my Mum might not be that surprised), all our 'new' friends in local area think we are great, and my old friends who know what he's like, would probably give me a big hug and bring round chocolate cake if they lived nearer, live many miles away. So not that easy to address. Books will help me either wade through it or move on.

The bullying- it's not really apparent in other areas, I don't think. I do all the financial stuff though I do go through our monthly spend with him each month, but only because we always overspend and he is usually guilty in some way or other. But sexually he likes to give as much as he likes to take. I wouldn't say he feels entitled to sex. But there is no way he takes on equal work in the house, he has a couple of jobs - ironing and putting bins out. Ironing he always does, weekly with sport on TV and bins he rarely does so I just do them as it's easier.

I'm away now to get some sleep. Thanks WWIFN, I do feel pretty low right now, you're right just because I can't understand how I've ended up in this mess, why I haven't got a grip earlier and stopped this from happening. It all looks so black and white written down here, yet is far from black and white in real life.

OP posts:
dignified · 14/05/2010 23:41

I found there are usually two teams relating to these sort of issues " kick him out " and then " some men are just like this ". There doesnt seem to be any middle ground , most women in this position want very much to stay married to their husbands who they love very much, they just want things to change. I know i did.

Some people are open to change, others not.For me, once i realised what he was doing ( he was very brazen ) and objected , he would smirk at me , he was like a small child constantly trying it on and seeing how much he could get away with. It didnt work out for me , and i had no choice but to end my marriage , which i dont regret.

I will point out though, it took several years to get to that point, despite affairs, constant gaslighting and other horrible behaviour . Not many people kick their partners out overnight , most want to work at it and change things, and thats ok and entireley up to them.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 15/05/2010 01:49

loves I don't see this situation as bleakly as perhaps you might think. I actually think it's capable of remedy, but for that to happen, both of you need to revisit the power dynamic in your relationship.

I think people are capable of change, but they normally need the most enormous incentive to do so. I can only tell you what I see from what you write and you know yourself and your H better than any of us here.

It might help you while he is away to draw a timeline of your relationship and look at the power dynamics at different points. You don't say much about his feelings about his behaviour during his first marriage and I wonder what he shared with you about any lessons learned and his attitudes to fidelity and cherishing a partner in the wake of that experience? You also don't say how you have rationalised that story - and the way he treated his first wife - in your own head for all these years?

It sounds as though you have always looked up to him and been in his shadow somewhat, although you might tell us that this has become more pronounced since having children and you have had less independence.

It has always seemed to me that you two have never discussed fidelity in any depth and I wonder where you learned that it was better to be tolerant of friendships that threatened? I wonder whether he has complained in the past about women being irrationally jealous and distrustful and you have therefore tried very hard not to be like that?

I think he loves you and that he loves and values his family. But I do think he sees himself as having the power in this relationship and I do think he has got used to controlling events.

You know I have always said to you that you need to give yourself permission to be yourself and admit when you feel threatened, belittled or small. You've proved to be a powerful advocate for your DCs, now you need to be one for yourself.

I think it's worth having a discussion with him that has ground-rules before you start. What ever you say to eachother, the other will not ridicule or attempt to stop the other talking.

Then you tell him what is in the open domain. You chart how you have been feeling since all this started last year and explain where you are at now, feeling disengaged and giving serious consideration to a future without him. Insist on equity throughout and get him to reverse your positions as I did downthread. From what you've said, you've tried to do this before and his response reveals that he wouldn't have accepted this behaviour from you. I wonder why he thinks that behaviour he wouldn't tolerate in you, is permissible for him? That might be because of a sense of entitlement that has never been challenged and it might be something deep-rooted about his attitudes to women and the roles men and women play in relationships.

For you to regain the intimacy and connection you once had, you've got to stop feeling that certain subjects are off-limits for fear of being regarded as a jealous harridan - and he has got to listen and try to walk in your shoes; the empathy I was referring to earlier. Perhaps he does see you as indecisive and non-assertive and maybe you have been like that a bit. Perhaps that's because of this power dynamic I was referring to - you have acceded to his wishes for too long. That's going to have to change if you're going to get your relationship on a more equal footing.

I think one of the most significant shifts that could happen here is for you to stop feeling scared of him and for him to start feeling scared at the prospect of losing you.
This is what got you results last time, even if you had to do it in the dark and without looking at him (I know I keep returning to that, but I think it's significant).

When you look again at what I charted as indisputable, what I want you to see is that feeling threatened was perfectly legitimate. If you get Not Just Friends (please, please do!) you will see that reinforced over and over again. Whether he agrees or not is irrelevant, but if he would also feel threatened if the situation were reversed, he's got nowhere to go with that argument.

It would be enormously helpful if you make headway in restoring the power balance, if you could get him to read that book too at some stage. It makes such enormous sense. I've never known anyone who is fully invested in their marriage disagree with its message, that the only safe friends are ones who wish the marriage well and aren't hoping that one of the marriage partners will one day sleep with them. Anyone who doesn't feel threatened by their partner having a new friendship with someone for whom there is a mutual attraction, is not invested in their marriage. In fact, they've already got one foot out of the door....what you've felt all along was entirely normal for a woman who loves deeply and honestly. If you hadn't felt threatened by this in fact, he would be entitled to question your true feelings for him.

Please never again feel scared about admitting that you love him so deeply that you cannot be complacent about him. Never feel scared about asserting your right to respect and dignity - and the right to have your fears taken seriously and not belittled or scorned.

loves2walk · 15/05/2010 18:01

Many many thanks for such thoughtful and pertinent posts. I am overwhelmed by the support.

I woke up this morning and did a deal with my DSs - that in return for a cup of tea in bed they could watch TV downstairs- and I then had an hour on my own just thinking. I decided also to prioritise more thinking time so got a babysitter this morning and went out for a walk and coffee with a notepad.

I have more to do but basically I am heartened by the idea this might be fixable and atleast if I try and it isn't I will have done all I can to work at this marriage.

So I am going to switch off tonight, turn the computer off and watch a DVD then get some sleep. I can't believe how exhausting this is, I feel as though I have a constant hangover.

Then tomorrow evening I am going to type out my issues, like a letter to DH and use all sorts of bits of posts here that really strike a cord with me. And then I will think what to do after that. I am definately going to tackle this with him, I have gone over my speech now 3 or 4 times during my walk and I totally now get the point about evidence not being needed, feelings being valid enough. I just didn't get that before I started having this imaginary conversation with him. I get it totally now, the way DH has been making me feel is enough for a serious discussion along the lines of 'I am considering a future without you' - that is exactly the phrase I will use. And actually a future without him does not scare me now like it used to so I will point that out too. This is major stuff and my head really is buzzing with it and fussy at the same time. Which is why I have Sex & the City on DVD for tonight and a bag of choc raisins!

I actually feel optimistic now that there is light at the end of this tunnel. OK, I have a fair degree of work to do before I get there, and a discussion with DH of this type is not going to easy, but I recognise a need for it, and for it to be thorough and face to face rather than in bed with lights off - thanks! The actual discussion will have to be planned carefully so we are not interrupted and I also think I will wait till I have had a chance to go through blackberry after he gets back, just to see if there are any 'missing you' type messages - I need to know if I am being a complete mug here before I launch in.

Many, many thanks. As I said I am overwhelmed by the power of these posts.

OP posts:
partytime · 15/05/2010 22:02

I am so pleased that you have thought this through and come up with a plan.

I wish you lots of luck, especially as you say you love your H very much and want it to work.

I would have loved the opportunity to do this with my H but he never gave me the chance, a huge regret for me.

x

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 15/05/2010 23:11

I'm really pleased this thread has helped you Loves. I agree that writing things down really helps to bring order and coherence to the maelstrom of emotions you must have been going through for such a long time.

I also understand - and second - your point about continuing to look at the Blackberry. And you might also want to keep an eye out for a second phone too. Now you've got into the BB, might also be worth doing that google search again about how to find hidden folders/the log etc.

Good luck with all this and be sure to update us. I'm really rooting for you - and often think of you and how you are feeling.

loves2walk · 16/05/2010 19:15

That's very sad partytime, it must take some strength to come round from that position to a point where you can pass on words of wisdom to others and be such a help. As have so many here and I am truly grateful.

Thanks whenwillI for your very kind comment as well.

I will come back later in the week when I'm armed with blackberry update and my letter to DH. Thinking of getting a babysitter for 1 afternoon next weekend and going out the house for a walk and tea. Though might need something stronger than tea to get me through this conversation. Especially as DH is being so sweet in calls/txts while away this weekend. But I am determined to address this and try and formulate a more equal, open relationship with as much disclosure as I can get.

OP posts:
partytime · 16/05/2010 19:32

L2W - no probs. I don't think of myself as strong, although those who know me well say I am.

I have found so many threads on here useful to my recovery.

I see myself as 'ill' or 'wounded' so recovery is a most apt word.

Anything that helps put the situation in perspective is a godsend. I have been in so much turmoil.

There are some very intelligent, wise and sympathetic women on here, it amazes me.

I wish you luck x

loves2walk · 21/05/2010 10:49

I am just updating here. I have no change in my situation. Just a slow week being tired and a bit worn down. I had such a positive weekend without DH, then DSs were all excited about him coming back and I felt nothing really. I did stay up late to look on his blackberry and saw enough friendly, personal and work emails to make me think nothing is being deleted, but nothing flirty and nothing referencing an affair.

I feel really low and haven't the energy to have 'that conversation'. I know I should and I need to but I just don't have the strength to go through the confrontation and trying to explain why I feel they way I feel and have someone ask for reasons, or demand clarity or whatever browbeating I'll get. Hopeless, I know but there we are. I have filled the weekend with DS's social things so have invited kids over for ballgames & pizzas both days which will mean DH will get involved and hopefully he'll be too busy to ask me what's wrong.

I was reading the other thread just know 'listen up everyone' and it's so good, but it makes me feel just too sad.

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 21/05/2010 12:11

Good to get an update Loves.

I think that's part of the problem, isn't it? That he must sense all is not well - and yet would avoid confronting you about it? And that your expectation is that he will "browbeat" you?

I think you're right to have this conversation when you feel mentally ready for it. You are very wise and I am thinking of you.