'But We Took You to Stately Homes' Part 2...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

Rose - very useful article. Thank you

smithfield - I think they can be unlearned and even if they can't completely we can forgive ourselves. They will not damage our kids in the same way because they do not represent full blown narcissism.

Diving - I felt like this a few weeks ago and ended up seeing a psychiatrist. However I have slowly healed and actually feel much better. I saw it as another layer of pain coming away. I too have had some terrible mummy momnets recently but we cannot be perfect and you can learn to forgive yourself. You love your DD and the fact that you feel so guilty proves that - that is the most important gift to your child

Diving I had a dreadful day with Dc's yesterday. Yelled at DD. She jumped out of her skin. I had had a weekend of constant triggering...and... well you know how it can go sometimes. I was withdrawn, detached.
The Dcs knew pushed me for the attention they needed from me (as all children do) until I snapped.
Another day a while ago I yelled at ds at the top of my voice to 'go away'. DD who is just two told me off.. I felt like shit.
Im not proud of myself for any of the above. Im certainly not justifying my behaviour...often edna (who is EEEEVIL) appears right after such episodes. Brandishing her 'crap mother' posters.
The thing is these are 'moments' and in the midst of them I rewrite history entirely. I blank out all the 'good mummy moments' in my reportoire.
Other 'normal' people have similar moments with their Dcs and dh's. It is happening up and down the country as I write, in each and every household (I guarantee) and often not followed up by the amount of self- degradation that happens in homes of 'stately threaders'.
Case in point friend refers to her youngest as 'the little shit' and locks him in her car for punishment. She thinks nothing of it. In her world its' OK, because he deserves it.
No insight there then .
You see 'we' (that's all of us DONM's) have FLEAS.
(You see rose how much I got out of that post.)
We think these'moments'happen not because we are human, under stress, cant be 100% perfect all the time, are trying our best and cocked up. We see it as proof we are 'dreadful', 'awful', 'hideous' mothers/people.
You are just human diving that is all.
You have ishoos, we all do. We are trying to deal with them not brush them under a big stinky , festering carpet like many inclusding our parents do.
You love dd and she loves you.
Her ability to reject you in anger IMO is proof of what a F*ing top job you are doing.

Message withdrawn

That was a wicked and cruel thing your mother did to you yesterday. It was designed to hurt you, and because you are real,legitimate and because you have a heart and soul and feelings, it hurt. The fact that you were impatient with DD is completely understandable and normal. She will be fine.

You have an h who loves you....take his cue and love you too. Do something truly lovely for your heartbroken inner child. When you were seven or eight, or however old, what would have been a special treat? Give that treat to that child today. To you today.

Diving that post made me cry and I am not reduced to tears easily

It is so easy to take a bad moment and magnify it, when as children we were only loveable if we were perfect. Your mother sounds hideous and cruel and I am glad that you are NC.

Do you receive counselling? I know it has helped me to deal with some of my issues

The blank piece of paper and your dh's note perhaps represent the two extremes in your life. Your mother is blank so to speak, she doesn't know the real you and doesn't know herself either. She is damaged and deep down feels blank because she has buried her real self under too many layers of denial. She would try to project these feelings onto you but try not to let her

Your dh however is a proper human being who is full of life and love and he does see the real you with all your loveable bits, quirks and weaknesses. Trust him and know that you are a person. That imperfections make us who we are just as much as perfections. That you are loveable despite not being perfect and that you are allowed not to be perfect.

Rose that post on fleas was really helpful. I have spent the last few days wondering whether I was replicating the same things over with my own children. I think that the comment about, if you are aware enough to wonder if you are, you do not have NPD, helped a lot.

Ive been looking a lot a the way I interact with people lately. Im still being a doormat to everyone, I dont accept that its alright for me to need things - not when everyone else has such important needs! - and I replicate this through home life, friends, work.....

Dh is great but hes had a lot of his own stresses lately, would be lovely to wake to list of why its okay to be me - even though half the time I am not even sure who I am.

Sorry but I am not yet conversant with the language - can someone tell me what NC is?

Perhaps foolishly have arranged to eat out with the parents on Sunday - have been spending week bracing self for whatever I will have managed to do wrong. I find myself glaring at my children when we are all together, terrified they misbehave or say something that shows I am not living up to the expected standard of parenting - which is unfair on them, they are great kids.

NC No Contact.

In my current therapy... I identified myself as being the dumping ground for everyone elses shit. I am a rubbish bin. That's why I have no self esteem, I don't deserve anything, and nothing ever works out. I am rubbish, and not even my own rubbish! But I have identified that, and I so very much want to change it. Not just for me but for my babies.

This thread is so illuminating. One of the problems that comes up in a lot of people stories, is how they normalise the abnormal, tolerate the intolerable, love the unlovable. There's such a lot of potential isn't there....if we can do those things, just think.........

Message withdrawn

Message withdrawn

diving read your first post in my car this am (on phone so couldnt reply). And I sobbed.
Im glad I dont know who your mother is in RL or where she lives.
On the other hand I think I am in love with both you and your dh. .
I hope you are feeling better though...it sounds as though you are. Better for identifying feelings you had locked away that had to come out.
I hope one day 'you yourself' can truly see what a wonderful person you are. Children are born with an essence and you mother despite her cruelty has never managed to destroy yours. Probably what frustrates her.
You have also helped me realise why I have been a bit out sorts myself in the last few days. Began after huge sob ) to look for a hidden trigger. My mothers birthday.
The mind tries to forget but the emotions just refuse dont they.

I am thinking I may have to find myself counsellor too. I am trying online counselling but I am finding it a bit restrictive. I have not had much recent luck with therapists. Never seemed to find the right fit. And of course there's the money side of it.
I had an incident, in a lift this morning. A woman began speaking to me in the most aggressive rude manner, because the lift wasnt working. I dont work there (and neither was I wearing my special lift engineers outfit..never on a Thursday) yet she snaps at me.. 'well what are 'you' going to do about it ...then... why are you just standing there? . It got progressively worse from there.
She was clearly offloading on to me, a complete stranger. Are these people DonM seeking missiles fgs?
I dont know what upset me more the fact being target of some random womans abuse. (She even followed me afterwards and kicked the back of my feet...). Or the fact I was with a colleague who said 'nothing' and began to instead look at the floor, feet spot on ceiling whilst it was going on.
So you could say I was trapped in a lift with my mother and the rest of my family.
Rationally the woman was clearly a fruit loop and colleague was visibly scared of fruit loop...So why do I come away feeling sad and inadequate???
I just want some miracle therapist to come and fix me.

I am getting my therapy on the nhs. The nurse practitioner referred me, I had an assessment and then referred to the most approprate for my circumstances. I realise that, for once, rural Cheshire is a good place to be insofar as there is very little in the way of waiting times etc.

This is the second time I have gone this route....the first time gave me the strength to tell h to go, and to stick to my guns. This time is innerchild stuff, to get over the damage caused by my mother. I am about one third through, and will see where I end up.

In terms of potential....yes. I feel as though my life has been ruined. But I am still alive. There is some time left, and the world is full ofr miracles....who would have thought Susan Boyle would have become a multi million selling artist? Bet she didn't!!!

Never say never, 'cos you just never know.

'children are born with an essence and your mother despite her cruelty has never managed to destroy yours' - indeed what a great thought

I have often marvelled at how I achieved what I have. Even thinking this way is a huge step for me because it seems a little too confident

How I got half decent grades at school and a degree? How I married a normal, loving man and have been accepted by his family? How I had two beautiful children and manage to love them in ways I never was? How I didn't completely self destruct?

I like to think my essence has not been destroyed, or the real me if you like. I think that is true of all of us on here.

It is interesting because whilst I feel positive today I know in my dark times (and I have plenty) I too feel that in terms of potential I have been let down. I should have pursued my real passions but they were never encouraged. I hope I still have time to pursue them though

Funnily and not surprisingly my real interests were also interests of my GM - it is like she couldn't bear me to do well in what she felt she should have succeeded in. Nursing was okay because despite my degree there was also the little reminders that put me in my place i.e. nursing is not all that

I think it is a wonderful job and I am hugely respectful of those nurses that manage wards and specialise into rewarding roles. However I am beginning to think that it wasn't really the right job for me. I went into it for the wrong reasons and will admit slightly narcissistic reasons i.e. to prove I was a nice person to myself and them. Even that wasn't good enough when my GM told me that she was too sympathetic to be a nurse . Fleas attacking again I think! I am beginning to believe that I might actually be a nice person (not perfect but okay enough just like every normal human) and I don't need to nurse to prove it.

Maybe I should take a plunge and try something new.

Smithfield you said - 'we think these moments happen not because we are human......we see it as proff that we are awful etc'

So true and this was the drive behind my choice of career. It also means at times when I have bad mummy moments, I slide into terrible guilt and the feeling that I am a fake and all that does is perpetuate the feelings of self hatred that make you commit more bad mummy moments

It is much healthier to say 'well I screwed up there but I am human and under a lot of pressure at the moment, I am allowed to make mistakes. I will hug dc and treat them and myself and try to do better next time. I will remember that under the context of normal, unconditional love these moments are not going to damage my children. It is impossible to be a perfect mother all the time and actually this would not be a realistic portrayal of life to dc. Ultimately tomorrow is another day and my children need me to be there despite the bad times. I AM NOT MY PARENTS'

I have often referred to when my SGF called me a fake and a phoney and said the only reason people liked me was because they didn't know the real me. It has taken me 14 years to realise that this was projection in all its glory

Diving - It is so very understandable the feelings you have about not having lived your life. However you have loved and can love. I am not suggesting this makes up for what you have lost but I try to think of my capacity to love and they have not stolen that. They have not stole my essence and yours is clearly there too with the insight you demonstrate on this thread.

Diving I keep thinking about a little girl being forcibly wrapped in a rug and put under the stairs! And the blank anniversary note is just ... psycho. I can well see how you needed to go no-contact with such a threatening person.

I'm also being tugged, reluctantly, by guilt. I'm very down these days - although there are other reasons for that, the thing playing on my mind is my last conversation with Mum and her Letter Of Denial. I sent a card, apologising for hurting her feelings, but am still fighting Little Grace's wish to believe Mummy's right and she wasn't so neglectful. I can't indulge LG on this one, as it would mean calling myself a liar! The emotional tax is high, though. Of course, your scary Mum's note was intended to trigger you. It's not surprising it worked

How wonderful that your DH takes trouble to remind of of what's great about YOU! Lovely, lovely message and I'm glad you shared it

Off to write one of those to myself! (I can think of nice things about me, I'm sure I can ... can't I??!)

I have read your posts on this page, you are all so very brave, well done to you all x x x your sharing not only helps you but others!

hunniemummy Hi, how are things with you?

rhonda Sorry meant to say earlier, would you be able to postpone dinner/lunch arrangement? Too scary?
I know what you mean...I was always on tender hooks around any of my family. Especially with the kids.

eh? whose hunniemummy? Apologies, tapping with one finger and wine.

I have not been on the thread in a long time (I participated in vols. 1,2 &3)...I check back every once in a while.

I just wanted to say thank you for the FLEAS article, Roseability. Literally, that was the first thing I read coming back and such a serendipitous event. Another piece to my puzzle (damn big puzzle it is turning out to be!).

Diving-We must be on the same page: bereaved, check; furious, check; envy, check; the 'fuck off' mode-me too. I was to be a helper at dc sporting event and as I was driving over, one of the things on my list was to tell Fakeface to fuck off. And I did too, but diplomatically (I think). She engaged me in conversation (I wasn't going to approach her) I was rather short with answers and when she started in with "what a nightmare the xyz class has been" (our sons are in the same grade) I said, "{my ds} is thriving on it." Which was the truth. Yes I am getting a lot of mileage off of that .

Having had such trouble with friendships (fleas, no doubt, no doubt) I feel some self-something (empowerment? defending my own self-esteem?) when I can dump someone for a change.

Diving-the description I had for myself was as one of the stage hands dressed in black moving silently between acts so no one would notice. There was some evidence that I had been there but no comment was ever made. Invisible, irrelevant.

Rhondajean-I am struggling, but not giving up , on needing things for me. I start something then it fizzles out. Wardrobe, good example. But it is so bad that now I have trouble giving myself time to get back into quilting which has been very good 'therapy' for me in years past. I have even spent less time on MN to free up time for it......trying to be a better housekeeper .

TheRealSmithfield-hi, you probably don't remember me. Hope you are doing well. The elevator incident-I think no response was the correct thing to do. (Even though your feelings inside were being triggered?) The old bat was venting at you; it didn't matter who was there they were going to get it. I think I may have given her a parting shot at the exit: "Thank God you are not my mother".

toomany of course I remember you!!
Thanks, I know, I know...you're right and smithfield of old would probably have become embroiled in major slanging match. Almost did, but remained contained despite firework display of triggers inside.
LOL at fakeface, plenty of those at the school gate. I am 'enjoying' standing up for myself more and more...still get the god damn guilt at times though. All good progress though right toomany.

Mum rang. She gushed about the card (it was a particularly lovely scene), then tried to draw me into further discussion about the point in dispute. I repeated that I'm sorry for hurting her, then told her we both know people have different viewpoints; even different memories: let's leave it at that ... and segued impeccably into a discussion about gardening. I'm so proud of myself!

She did, however, let me know she's bought exactly what I wanted for my house - and is keeping it. She offered to give me the nowhere-as-near-as good, old one it replaces. Oh, well.

After I've tarted up her old one, she'll probably be all cross

Grace - the only way to deal with a narcissist other than ignoring them, well done! Like dealing with children I think (although that may be an insult to children who carry out their actions innocently)

Her keeping your present is classic! Again great way to deal with it is humour

I got thinking about the subject of presents and how they are the realm of narcissists (I fear I use this word too much but I am still reeling from discovering this can explain the majority of my adoptive parents' abusive behaviour)

he first time I spent xmas away from home (and it was the best one of course) I was at my ILs. It was before I was married. She knew I would be opening my present from her in front of my ILs so what did she get me? I kid you not it was the most cheap looking, tarty underwear you could ever lay your eyes on

It was shocking pink with large black lacey bits round the edges, bra and knickers to match. I was mortified in front of my FIL who didn't know where to look. He is a respectable man with a good job and this is what bothers them, they have a huge issue about status. At the time I thought it was innocent bad taste, I did mention my embarassment and she gave a half apologetic reply about how she forgot he would be there

I realise now it was completely intentional, the wicked old hag. She quite often got me rubbish presents but not highly inappropiate underwear that looked like it was from a cheap sex shop. And this the woman who turns the TV over at the mere hint of sex and thought it was disgusting when I got my period

No she wanted to put me in my place. She was livid that I wasn't spending xmas with her but with the ILs in their big middle class house. She was going to bring me down a peg or two, remind me that I was striking out of my league (these class divisions and snobberies are theirs not mine btw) by humiliating me in front of my ILs. How could it not be intentional? It wasn't even a narcissistic mistake of presuming I would like the same as her because she would never wear such underwear.

I like nice underwear and yes sometimes sexy underwear bought by appropiate person or myself, but this was so tasteless......I realise I am prattling on about underwear, I am tired, tis late

have to add the half hearted apology contained a hint of barely contained glee