'But We Took You to Stately Homes' Part 2...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

was only popping in to say hello and that having painted myself into procrastinators corner (lots of work stuff to be finishe now at very last minute). Hence my absence... I hadnt had time to get back on.
But this stuff grace and thisis is fascinating. Grrrrr dont want to leave again now.
What confuses me is my dsis is ultra feminine. Wont leave the house without matching everything and literally chooses outfits out night before. She is the queen of pink.
I am the opposite, from reading your posts I wonder if my mum tolerated the femininity(sp) of my sis but not me.
thisis do you wonder why your sis was permitted to be the feminine one?
I was also wondering about you father, where does he fit in? Do you think your mother wanted a boy? Or perhaps you became someone else for her.
For me there was a lot of stuff tied up with me looking like my father. She hated him throughout the marriage (and some).
I also think perhaps me getting some vague affection from my father has baring. So in trying to please him I tried to be more masculine so I could relate to him better.
Anyway sorry for jumping in. Will shuffle back to procrastinators corner

Oh, god Guess what I'm wearing this very minute?!

Self-analysis bit (typed from under the sleeve-ends of oversized jumper ... which Mum gave me):-
On a level, I feel that Being Pretty will alienate Mum. Indeed, she has often vocalised this, complimenting me on being "considerate" to wear shapeless clothes & no makeup around her. Christ, she's terminally insane, isn't she?!
I thought I was well over this, in my previous life. So 'over it', in fact, I didn't even acknowledge it. I was thin, glamorous and wore fab clothes - even if some of those were chosen by NH. But! There's no doubt that the way I looked attracted nutters, weirdos - well, attracted Narcissists.
Thinking back, mine were all body-con clothes. Classy & subtle, sure, but they screamed "LOOK HOW SEXY I AM!" I was still being directed by the Mum-competitive thing: dressing against her, iykwim. Gaah!

Okay, so now I'm 4 sizes bigger and broke. Not a hell of a lot I can do about the clothing - but hair & makeup cost nothing, do they? I'll try and come up with a new look that says "I'm attractive" without saying "I am sexy, aren't I?"

thisis: trichotillomania. I first heard of it in Elizabeth Wurtzel's autobiographical novel, "More, Now, Again". I have an obsession with hair removal - for the past few years, I've been trying to combat it by letting the buggers grow [eek] - but would never have noticed what I was doing, if not for Ms Wurtzel.

Glad you grew the hair you wanted, thisis! The mind is an incredible thing, you'd be amazed how often people recover from trauma to find they have the assets they always wished for
Love your mind! x

Jump right in, please..

I find others experiences of similar things completely illuminating.

I am the image of my dad. I believe this is one reason why she hated me.

I am (gulp) quite attractive too. Much more so than my sister. I am genuinely sorry, but beyond what I did, burying myself in oversized clothes etc....there was really nothing I could do about it.

Hey, smithfield & thisis - I "take after" my Dad's family too. According to Mum. I think she's bonkers - both Dad AND HER OWN BROTHER were blue-eyed, sturdy blonds like me. Genetics were strongly on the side of blue/blond, which would be why all of us kids looked like a set of matching Russian dolls. But, no, only I look like Dad's side of the family ...
... or, hang on, I wonder if she says the same thing to all the others, too?

This is fascinating. I remember my GM stating that she was worried my BIL thought she was trying to outshine me on my wedding day because he told her that her outfit was nice and bright or some such thing

This little story I feel betrays her true thoughts. Her jealousy (she told me I was like a hooligan on my wedding day - I took my shoes off and danced enthusiastically), I believe she thought she was outshining me! She complained that the mother of the bride (you are not even my bloody mother) should be the most important person at the wedding. The comment about being a hooligan was precisely meant to put me in my place, of course she gaslighted, told me I was over sensitive and later that she hadn't said it at all.

I digress sorry. I think all these manipulations to do with femininity/looks are classic narcissism.

Do you know I watched Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs today with ds. Do you remember the wicked step mother who asks the mirror who is the fairest? I think Disney must of had a narcissistic relative, except to make ones own mother one was unpalatable to many so she was a step mother instead. She is jealous of Snow White's beauty

It is rarely recognised openly but very true that a child's looks can trigger abuse or be a factor in it. My aunt has always been a scapegoat for my GM because she looks like her father (my GMs ex) and he is the object of most of her hatred

Hmm, Rose, I once told a friend about my Evil Boss - this friend is a therapist, though sadly not mine - her first reponse was: "Maybe you look like his mother."

Re your other post: yes, there is a strong school of thought that the "wicked stepmother" in folklore was originally a mother - the stories are often variants on the Oedipus tale, which exists in every culture. As our societies became more family-unit orientated (or more patriarchal, depending on your theorist), the role of Mother became sanctified so the jealous mother of the tales had to be changed to a stepmother.

Hi just thought I'd chip in here as you are talking about appearances.

My mother's "golden child" is my sister who looks most like her. During childhood it was clear appearances were very important to her, she would often remark on how one of her children was going through "an ugly phase". My cousin has three daughters and my mum will look at photos of them and compare the prettiness of them ("oh dd2 isn't pretty like dd1 is she?"). They are all beautiful though!

I look just like my dad apparently (don't know him) and my mum would comment on this frequently, I knew she saw it as a negative thing.

My mother always used my appearance as a way to belittle me. If I made an effort to look nice she would laugh hysterically at me and prod at me, pointing out every flaw of my body (strangely enough, all similarities to her own!?) The most common one would be, feeling the shape of my head and laughing because, she says, I have an odd shaped head. She used to do this almost every time I saw her. Now I tell myself every day there is NOTHING wrong with my head!

Rose I believe a child's looks can trigger abusive behaviour. My mother detests my son because he looks like her abusive father. How sad the actions of that man have affected a grandchild he doesn't even know.

Hello, just a quick one. Been feeling a bit anxious, hence not posting for a couple of days, but have been following your fascinating discussion and been thinking about the whole 'looks' thing, which seems to be a common experience for many victims of abusers.

I was lying in bed this morning wondering about this and wondered whether it's in some way a facet of the 'dehumanisation' method used by oppressors. Eg, prisoners (rightly or wrongly) are subjugated and essentially oppressed. They are given uniforms and numbers. Tey lose their identities. Eg, the Nazis dehumanised jews by reducing them to a set of pejorative characteristics (eg, greedy, mendacious) and later in the camps they shaved their heads, took away their belongings etc.

Obviously these are extreme cases, but the theme I see is the oppressor creating an 'otherness' in the oppressed and reducing their humanity to a set of (usually not very nice) characteristics instead of a full and rounded and uniquehuman being; presumably because it's easier to oppress a 'thing' than a 'person'.

Reading your experience, there seems to be a common thread of your parent trying to make you something 'other' than you were/are. I wonder if they did this to facilitate their oppression of you. So a girl made to look like a boy; a mother saying you look just like your (hated) father, contrary to all the physical evidence. How to make an angelic, blue eyed, blonde girl a demon? Strip her of her girliness, cut her hair, dress her drably, make her an ugly, shapeless thing, much easier to pick on her then. I imagine with Narcs, who identify most with themselves, if a child reminds them of themself but they wasnt to oppress them, they will work hard to make that child as 'other' as possible. While with a 'golden child' they will be annexed and deemed to be just like the narc.

In my family we were labelled, but also it was psychological labeling, largely based around my mother's beliefs in superstition, evil spirits, astrology. So if I ever begged my mother to stop yelling my dad was a murderer in the garden (which is one example of what she did, with frequency), I was just a typical 'Virgo' - ie, critical, hard hearted, blah, blah. In other words, my childhood feelings of fear and shame were reduced to something i couldn't change or argue against - my 'Virgoness", and I was not allowed to have my unique, individual feelings. Someone mentioned above (sorry haven't time to check who) that they were accused of being a demon or possessed. Was you parent dehumanising and labeling you in order to facilitate oppression too, I wonder?

Anyway, just some musings, feel free to tell me I'm talking nonsense!

BTW the Virgo thing has really stuck with me, although I've really tried to shake it off, because I've used it as an excuse in the past, I think to explain away things that have happened in my life....to the crazy point where I absolutely refused to get pregnant at certain times in the year to avoid having a Virgo child . Bonkers or what??

Lovely DH doing the nursery run, giving me a bit more time to muse.

I think the 'otherness' thing is, to an extent, part of human nature. It's a tribal instinct. That's how past cultures have been able to oppress and enslave whole other cultures. Racism, for example, is just a form of reducing a whole group of people to something 'other', something evil or wrong.

However, if there's one place you expect to be accepted in life, it is into your 'tribe' - it's within your family - is it not? The one place you would expect unconditional acceptance, love, protection from outsiders.

We are all like the Ugly Duckling. Born into a nest of fluffy yellow ducklings, looking at the mother duck as our mother, but having mother and the fluffy yellow siblings turn their back on us, because we are different - or they choose to see us as different, cannot unconditionally love us even if we were born and raised in the same nest. Where does the Ugly Duckling then belong? She has to grow up and find a flock of swans, some semblance of acceptance from outsiders - not easy if you feel you are ugly and worthless even if to outsiders you look like a beautiful swan.

Right, I really am now drivelling on......

Not drivelling at all....in fact your post has mad me cry....a sure sign that a raw nerve is touched.

Interesting that dehumanisation, so often involves shaving heads.

Religions demand the covering of hair.

Also the use of uniform, either prisoners, or again religious requirements. All sign of unique identity removed.

The defining of the OTHER as bad, either en masse, or(the bit that made me cry) trying to demonise a blonde haired, blue eyed baby.

And my sister...the golden child, had an identical hairstyle to our mothers.

Bagofrefreshers you're not drivelling, your post really touched me. My mother and grandmother actually called me "ugly duckling" and ET when I was little...... I'm glad to be out of their nest now!

Fascinating....lightbulbs going off .....can I chip in....

My M's M was a debutante and considered a great society beauty.She was very spoilt but started having manic psychosis shortly after marriage and my G f couldnt cope and was very cruel to her.
My M took most of the responsibility of looking after her 4 sibs when her M was Sectioned - frequently.
G'f had a mistress with another family and was barely with M -except when his ds's were born ,or required anything material
M has a sister with Downs S .Both of them were dressed alike as children. To this day,M only wears baggy,elasticated "slacks" too short in leg,acrylic jumpers with motifs on and mens shoes.She has had her hair cut short like a man since I was born,never wears make-up except incongruous red lipstick.
As a child,I was told by M 's brother (10 yrs older than me) that he used to hear his father molesting his sisters in the night....

My mother dressed me - blonde haired,blue eyed - in boys clothes from birth,and was horribly critical of my appearance both openly and through remarks like " that is a lovely dress x is wearing,but it would look awful on your shape.
I thought of myself as fat and peculiar as a child although in photos I look quite normal.
When I was 6 my M spent ages crocheting a party dress for me.I was delighted when I tried it on but she took one look and unravelled it as I stood there,saying I looked obscene....
As I got older,she would get my hair cut at the barbers,into a boys cut.I would have boys shoes.To deal with the bullying,I developed a tough,mouthy persona,hanging out with boys,fighting and smoking.I used to think I didn't get on with girls - too girly...
A PE teacher reduced me to tears one day in front of some 6th formers, with remarks about my very large breasts and as a result,some older girls took me aside and advised me about make up and hair.

I "transformed" over the next year into a slim,blonde make-up wearing ,popular girl.
At this point - age 14- my mother became violently verbally aggressive and would demand my father "sort me out" ,which he did,violently with his fists,calling me a whore because of my clothes and hair.

I never saw myself as attractive.

My hair - long,blonde or chopped short, and size - fluctuating ,are constant targets of my M verbal attack.

My eldest dd's are stunningly beautiful.They are mixed race and "therefore"...in M eyes .."look nothing like me" - (everyone else says they are my image)

My ds has blonde hair and blue eyes and despite being a boy,is hated by my M...

Hi, feel like I'm crashing this site (will try to read some threads later & if I can offer any advice)

Attilathemeerkat suggested I post here (thanks), so here goes...
I'd really appreciate any advice about how to move forward......

Ive posted before about my mum & I think I've been moaning about her for the last almost 7 years.

I'm an only child - very much overloved until I got to my early teens, when I feel mum lost interest in me. She married the wrong man & always had a terrible relationship with my dad. As did I.

My mum has almost brainwashed me (with best intentions) & has always told me what a great mother she was.I've always believed her.
Of course when I had my DC's I've re-evaluated this & my conclusion is she wasn't that good actually. My father was pretty shit - in an absent & shoutey/thrown dinner & plates up the wall way.

I've previously seen counsellors/psycharists/psychologist who've confirmed a sort of dominant mother 'thing' & emotional deprivation/abandonment.

Anyway to cut to the chase, (D)M & I had a massive row almost 6 mths ago & apart from 1 angry voice message I left her, we've not spoken.

She thinks it's to do with her weight. Of course it's not, it's to do with her self inflated belief that's she's so great, that she did the best for me (yes have read the Toxic book as recommeneded) that everything that went wrong was MY FAULT. Some major things went wrong. Of course non of it was my fault (apart from being born to 2 ill matched people)

if you're still here, my problem is I am literally being eaten up with this & stuck in a situation which I can't get out of. I've written her a letter, explaining why I'm angry (haven't sent it but should do), and maybe I'll feel some relief at doing so, but other than that, I can't see a way out of it. It's on my mind ALL DAY, I can't switch off.

I do want to be friends, but I don't want al the fake nonsense. I think in fact she's quite a simple character (but verbally agressive & volatile) & also very weak - because she won't face up nor apolgise for the past mistakes.

I'm getting to the point where I'm going to bed as soon as DH comes home, because I;m so overwhelmed by everything.

Friends have said, don't have anything to do with her or could I just get on with her the way she is, but I can't. I feel that in order for me to move on, I have to have the whole thing out with her (I've tried many times before & the reply was yes I wish I done things differently, but she still believes she was right). I need to get it out so I can be free.

loving What do you want to happen?
It sounds to me perhaps you want a mum but no longer on 'her' terms, i.e without the strings attached?
This is the frustrating, painful part of a very long journey and Im afraid this is where it begins. The realisation that the relationship is not as it should be, but the complete inability of the other person in the relationship (your mother) to change or even meet you half way. Instead there you find a wall of denial.

Just wrote a long email and deleted it.
I am leaving work today and although yesterday I felt happy as a lark, today I feel internally strangled , anxious, fearful.
Is it because every time I attempt to uncover the real me edna appears on my shoulder.
She continually tries to put me back in my box. Just as my mother did.
Last weekend I achieved something really important to me. My family knew but didnt acknowledge at all. I thought I was over all that. But yet it still amazes me how resiliently they refuse to allow me any happiness. Their not refusing in a direct way but an indirect way.
So at the weekend I ran 10k, last year I couldnt even run for a bus. I found picture on the website and suddenly there was edna again poking fun at me.
I know what is happening now which is great but it still pushes my buttins.
So another potential victory today and here is edna again mocking me.
Im hoping I guess writing it down will somehow melt her powers away. We will see.
I also wanted to say I got to the part about the elf in homecoming last night. It has affected me profoundly.
Would like to write more on that, but for now I have to go. Wish me luck .
I want the real me, the elf me to emerge from the earth.

That's it exactly,trs.
But whereas with a partner who behaves like that ,it is possible to "close" completely -even when dc's are continuing contact -
also possible to drum up plenty of allies,eventually,who will support and reinforce the survivors perception,
until eventually the pain recedes, and the memories are filed under "abusive xh" (understandable ,then, why no contact).....

With your actual family,it's nowhere near as "straightforward"....

it seems a bit like the difference between an addiction to a "dirty" class A substance - that one would be unlikely to encounter in routine daily life....compared to recovering from a severe eating disorder - not possible to end your relationship with food forever.....
in the first case,
maintaining abstinence might be difficult but socially acceptable - no one is likely to offer you crack cocaine as you collect the dc's from brownies..(! for example..)
...if they did,it would be acceptable to refuse,no explanation,and bystanders would support you straight off with no questions....
within many social situations,it might even be acceptable to explain a bad mood as the result of cravings and to be commended for your commitment to staying clean...
you might be unlikely to lie in bed crying like a baby at the memories and losses of your days when you enjoyed smoking a crack pipe...
and if you did...no one would suggest you went to great lengths to find one ,or tell you that you might find it all ok this time-now you're a parent... that the physical ravages of your addiction were all in your imagination....

Whereas, it is incomprehensible to most healthy people,why anyone would be better off not seeing their own mother - that kind little WI lady - or might even be [whisper] relieved -if -she-died....

Its always going to be there in your head,in some way....

You can never give up eating

But you can manage a relationship with food that,for some,will never be entirely comfortable...

I have just existed for over three years, I have no life, I never have had one I have always lived someone ele's life being here for their needs family, friends, work etc, I am just here for the children and that is all I am worth to myself and to others, the only thing that has kept me going these last few years is the children and even then I wanted to run away from them as me being around being the focus for ex's issues with himself meant that they were being hurt by association, all I am is a scapegoat and I don't think I even know how to be anything else no matter what I change or do, no one see's things from my viewpoint no one is interested I am tollerated, used, abused and ignored, that is all I ever have been worth, here to forfill the needs of someone else, and I let it happen

I can't get it out of my head, the children told me I have some sort of curse on me, that is how they view me, as someone who has a curse on them, and they live with that person

No matter how much I have done, no matter how many people I have been around, my life has not been mine, it has been a people pleasing life lived for others, not my life, I don't know how to make my life my own, any idea?

Smithfield. You have broken the mould. You have refused to lie down and take shit. You have stopped being a victim. No wonder Edna is mad as hell.

Congratulations on your 10K, that's amazing. I bet your DH and DCs were proud as punch. They are the people that count now.

As for leaving work, of course it's scary, you've made a momentous decision and it's so hard to leave a 'comfort' zone, even an abusive one like your workplace. Tomorrow you will feel free as a bird! Good luck today, sending you virtual champagne and chocolate to celebrate the beginning of a new, rewarding life for you and your elf!

MH I can totally relate to what you are saying. My inner child therapy is really helping to discover the real me....I haven't read Homecoming, as I was advised by the therapist to take it slowly with her....probably wise, as it is intense.

I feel that it is a rebirth, I am discovering what I like, what I want, who I am. Not just a receptacle for other peoples definitions and projections.

SMITHFIELD.....10K Blimey! Good for you!

Message withdrawn

Diving - You don't need to apologise to me. I do understand that you are hurting and that those posts seemed out of character. I was just concerned about how it would affect Vanilla, although I can see it has affected you to. Your words were unkind but I am sure born from anger, hurt and frustration. I respect your ability to apologise but also your right to disagree with others. I just feel it should be done in a sensitive and respectful manner on such a thread as this. Take care and keep posting

Vanilla - if you still read this thread I am thinking of you. I really struck a chord with your situation and your posts so I miss your words that at times comforted me. I understand you were hurt but I hope you can still post if you need to.

Smithfield - have you give up work to be a SAHM? I am considering this but for some reason a little voice keeps telling me it would be wrong. The real me, I feel, is more suited to being a SAHM (albeit with hobbies and interests to stimulate me) but the part of me that wants to please, feels I should work and have a career

Well done on that 10K - fabulous