life turned upside down

[dawntildusk]

I am really freaked out and need help putting this in perspective.
Here goes.
2 weeks ago a good friend of 25 years told me straight out that my dh (then boyfriend) raped her. It happened 14 years ago. She told me she has no recollection whatsoever of the night leading up to or immediately after the event. She woke up with him in the bed and he was inside her. She shouted at him and he left. Obviously I was shattered, devastated, nauseous, reeling from the shock. I sympathised with her, held her and hugged her and apologised over and over. When I confronted dh he was all the above multiplied by a million. His recollection of the event is this. We were all out drinking for the afternoon at a rugby match followed by the pub and then a club. 16 hours later we went to her house and he was helped to bed(by my brother and me). During the night he got out of our bed, he reckons to go to the bathroom, and climbed back in her bed. He remembers kissing and fondling, he does not deny he may have penetrated her but only "came too" after some kissing and they both realised what was happening at the same time. He left immediately, still really drunk and went back to bed.
I don't know what I am looking for by posting this but the word "rape" for me conjures up much different images than the one described to me. We have been married 12 years and have 4 beautiful children. My dh has been a kind, thoughtful, caring and supportive partner to me and I love him dearly. My friend is single, turning 40 this year and is blaming her recent breakdown on this event. I am so confused and need to know what you think. Is this rape?

Is this rape?

So if a teenage girl is drunk and a man goes and has sex with her that is fine.

Riiiiight.

There was a case where a teenage girl got drunk and fell down the stairs and broke her neck. Her father happened along, he was drunk too. Rather than calling an ambulance, he had sex with her and left her there. She died.

He acted reasonably I assume? As the girl was drunk and thus deserved everything she got?

Really am going out now.

Some of your attitudes disgust me I have to say. A man does not have the right to go around having sex with anyone he wants because he is drunk. Drunk women do not deserve to be raped. For crying out loud.

"I have spent a lot of time in various altered states with lots of different people in lots of situations, and have never mistaken one person for another."

I agree wholeheartedly with this. There is something about his story that just doesn't ring true at all. It would take a while to lead up to intercourse I just don't believe he got aroused and went for it in a matter of moments. There must have been a build-up where he would have had awareness of what he was doing.

I am also a bit shocked that so many guys out there actually penetrate their partners whilst they are asleep as some kind of wake-up call. really glad DH has never been that kind of lover as it sounds quite awful.

I have to say that I agree with ISNT and Dittany regarding the situation.

However if I look at how the Best friend has acted since then it all seems a bit strange, to suddenly come out with it after such a long time and then tell everyone after silence for 14 years.

Has anything in your relationship with her changed OP?

ISNT, yes of course, thats EXACTLY the same thing.

And it was totally my fault that i was raped when drunk. of course.

And that is why i socialise with my rapist on a weekly basis. And why i'm going to be a bridesmaid at his wedding.

If the op's dh had gotten bed with their friend, tried to have sex, she woke up and said no, then he continued to have sex it would have been rape. But that is NOT what happened. He STOPPED. HE STOPPED.

Have not read all the replies to this point, but the woman wasn't asleep was she? Didn't the OP say that there was some "kissing and fondling"? You surely have to be semi-awake for that? Then they both realised what they were doing and stopped. The episode was probably over in 2 mins and it certainly doesn't sound like there was intent to carry on, it doesn't sound malicious or pre-meditated. Given that both parties were drunk, and it was 14 years ago, memories of what happened can have changed or been totally wiped out.

It sounds like a terrible drunken accident on both of their behalf's - his through drink and hers through drink and perhaps drugs.

It's not unusual to keep something like this to yourself for many many years, but to have have an active relationship going forwards with someone whom you think has raped you is very unusual. At the time at least, she could not have considered it rape.

I think the OP is in a very sad situation. If the woman has told 4 people that she was raped, then in a matter of days this man's life could be in tatters.

Buda I agree

had he continued that would clearly ahve been rape regardless of the inebriation of either party

AFAWK he did not

Isn't that how we tewach our sons to behave? To stop the minute consent is withdrawn, even if they think it has been given up to that stage?

I still don't get why being drunk seems to be an excuse for anything. If you get yourself so paralytic that you don't know what you're doing then that is YOUR FAULT. You have a choice - don't get so bloody drunk. But no, people no longer have any incentive to not get wasted, because they think it absolves them of all responsibility. Well it fucking doesn't. I'm afraid if this does get taken further, it's his own fault for being so drunk he didn't know what he was doing. I do understand that he's probably not a 'bad person' though.

Yeah maybe she is a headcase, or maybe it really did traumatise her but she has suppressed it for a long time and is only just realising. I would find it pretty traumatising to wake up with even 'just' an inch of someone else's knob in me, even if he did get off straight away. Something unpleasant happened to me a few years ago, but I didn't tell anyone because I thought no one would believe me and I didn't want his wife and children to get hurt. I didn't shout and scream at him either. OK, I wouldn't go about solving it the way she has but we're not all the same.

Well that depernds if woman was asleep or a participant surely?

Way IO read it woman participated fully up to a apoint then withdrew consent, in which case he behaved approprioately.

if woman was truly asleep- and you cannot kiss and fondle a person if you are- then different kettle of fish, that would clearly be rape.

I think the 'teenage daughter' hypothesis is a bit spurious TBH. Most people who have teenage daughters do not have such apocalyptically boozy parties, for one thing. Why not go the whole hog and say that just because he's a man he might just as easily attack everyone's children and not be blamed for it?

ISNT - you can't compare causing death by dangerous driving with rape. Different crimes require different levels of proof. Rape requires a proof of intent ie proof beyond reasonable double of the rapists lack of regard for the consent of the victim. Most motoring offences require only a negligent or careless act or in the case of speeding and many other offences not even that - just the fact that the act has been committed is sufficient. This is a deliberate policy decision by the lawmakers to require a higher standard of care in people who are effecitvely permitted to take control of leathal weapons (ie motor vehicles) every single day. This is simply not the same approach (legally) as with rape, murder, theft etc which require proof of the criminal state of mind "mens rea" as well as the criminal action itself "actus reus".

It is Not about the victim. Criminal law (particularly prior to the recent introduction of victim impact statements) deals solely with the criminal. Civil law deals with compensation for the victim. Quite rightly in my opinion.

I do not belittle the trauma for the woman. In some cases, the fact that the man did not intend to rape her (ie believed she was consenting) will help her to process what happened to her as can be seen by some posters on this board. In some cases that will make no difference to the level of trauma suffered by the woman. But it does not make the man a rapist. Not understanding that is not about emtions or support for women - it is a basic misunderstanding of criminal law.

agree with nancydrew rocks and dittany. am very sceptical about the oops, wrong vagina, justification.

On the question of how realistic the scenario is - have the doubters never woken up from a sexy dream which their body is reacting to, to find their partners caressing them and kissing them and either a) been turned on so continued to make love or b) been really grumpy at being woken up so kicked them to the kerb>

Same difference no>

Haven't read all the posts, but in answer to your question OP... IMO what you have described, isn't rape.

She withdrew consent, he stopped. If he hadn't, then yes, it would've been rape.

ISNT - you post about the father raping his dying daughter that you would make such a comparison.

Aussieng, You make a point that knowing there was no intent may help her process hings. I feel that if it we were me I would like to know that the man cannot even remember the penetration but he does not deny it happened as he was so out of it. As it is, she has no memory of anything that happened that evening leading up to it and I am wondering should I ask my mutual friend to ask her does she want to know hs recollection? I was nearly at the end of posting an incredibly long explanation of dh reaction when I put her accusation to him but ended up wiping it! Suffice it to say that I gave him no information whatsoever about what she was saying. I remained calm and asked him to tell me what happeed that night. He was mortified and told me he had ended up getting in to her bed accidently one night and "woke up" while they were kissing very messily. I asked was there penetration and he said "god no" when I told him she says there was he was horrified, that he could not remember it but could not deny it happened as was so out of it. when I told him she is accusing him of rape, well you can imagine. His whole world has come crashing down and he is desperate to know how to handle things, as am I. Personaly Ifeel the only people who should be talking are him and her as no one else was there, but that is not going to happen.

dawn - i think you have shown remarkable character and dignity and compassion when dealing with all this actually because it is a horrific situation for you all. I think it is so telling that you husband has been so open about it all - not tried fudgung it or blaming her - i think if something had gone on he would try to at least avoid the conversation.I too think it might help her process if she knows your h's version. That said, again I feel that caution is a must here because I am not sure her motives are about moving on and seeking help.

What a hideous situation. I cannot believe how you must all be feeling.

How is your DH?

This was definitely NOT RAPE. DEFINITELY.

They were kissing. You would not kiss a man who was RAPING you.

They were drunk.

He started to make love to her. She realised it was going to far and asked him to stop.

HE STOPPED.

HE LEFT.

They spoke about it the next day and he apologised and she said 'Let's forget it.'

She was their BRIDESMAID a few weeks later.

As she has told people about this I really think that you need some legal advice about this or ask if you could speak to a female police officer about all this.

And personally I would keep away from friend until you have dealt with it legally.

What steps is 'friend' taking next? Has mutual friend told you? Is she going to the police?

I really really feel for you both.

Collision, I too am very worried about her next steps but she had told mutual friend she is not intending taking it any further. That is not to say she can't change her mind! She was our bridesmaid but not til nearly 2 years after. Another thing has literally just come to mind that she told me. When I asked why she did not tell me as soon as it happened she said she did not want to ruin our friendship, fair enough BUT then she went on to say that she was building up to telling me for a YEAR and that on the day she intended to tell me I told her I was pregnant with our first child! this has just struck me now that the "denial" must have started after that then. That entire year we all spent so much time together, practically living in each others houses and she was supposed to be trying to build up her courage to tell me and out partying with dh and I and our friends 3nights a week? I really feel like confronting her on this whole mess but Know I can't yet. I will seek legal advise, don't know any police officers but do know a solicitor. That should be my first step as while I feel deeply sorry for my friend and her current traumas I must put my children first. What would they think if in years to come they heard about it and asked dh and I "what did you do about it"?

It is rape.

To the victim, it matters not a jot what his intent was.

There was a definite element of consciousness to his actions. Is he going to accidentally end up in one of his daughter's
rooms and stick the "tip" in? Of course not. He knows not to, and to this extent he was conscious of what he was doing.

Being under the influence of alcohol does in no way excuse or justify an action commited under the influence. Due to personal trauma, I used to drink regularly until I blacked out; but I still take full responsibility for any of the idiotic and dangerous things I've done when out of it.

In general, physiologically, men can't get it up when they are too half-cut, so if he was able to get an erection its unlikely he can't remember anything.

So this was rape from this woman's point of view, and I see her point.

But it doesn't have to spell the end of the relationship. But he surely must take responsibility for his actions by understanding that what he did was in no way acceptable. He really can't blame the victim for this one. If believes that climbing on top of a sleeping woman and sticking it in is "not that bad", then you have a problem.

The woman...well, its difficult to say. I can see why she didn't go directly to your DH. BUt I happen to believe she is out of order to go around telling third parties about this. That is just wrong. Also, I personally don't believe this is the catalyst for the breakdown of her relationship, although it may have contribued to her unhappiness in some way.

But thats a separate issue to the rape, because she most certainly was raped.

As I've said - legally, it doesn't matter whether it matters to the victim what the intent was. Rape s a crime and it matters to the law theefore labelling this rape is inappropriate.

Agree with Tarty's last post about proceeding with caution here Dawn. I think it might help her to know his version but I would not let your DH and your friend be alone together - it's to emotive and too much room for different perceptions and interpretations of what is said.

I hope it does not come to this (and hope this comment is not insensitive) but given the range of differing reactions to the situation on this thread, you can see what the difficulties would be in getting a "beyond all reasonable doubt" criminal conviction here.

Sakura, DH is taking responsibility. He has never denied anything. He cannot remember some of what she is saying happened, but has not denied that it is possible as he was so out of it. He can get an erection when he is drunk, often involuntarily in his sleep but having said that he has never been as drunk as he was that night. How do you suggest he takes responsibilty? he has offered to write to her or talk to her but she wants no communication. Should he turn himself in to the police? wuld that not be more damaging to friend as she has chosen herself not to report it? what would he say to the police, I have been told that I raped someone 14 yrs ago and don't remember doing it but please arrest me anyway?He does not blame my friend in any way. If you read MY posts you will see that. Somebody made a statement earlier that made a lot of sense to me earlier when she said that, yes she has been raped but no, he is not a rapist as there was no intent on his part. Do you really not think that she would feel better knowing that her friend did not intentionally rape her? that he did not set out to cause her this pain as opposed to leaving her thinking that he planned the whole thing?

"In general, physiologically, men can't get it up when they are too half-cut, so if he was able to get an erection its unlikely he can't remember anything".

So untrue - yes, many men get brewer's droop but many can easily get semis and others get hard, some get hard and can't cum.

Ausseing, Yes I agree with you. There are a huge amount of differing opinions here and that is why I posted on here, to hear what others thought about it.
Sugarmousepink thank you for that very useful information and we will contact a solicitor immediately.

I think it's interesting that a few of us on this thread have apparently been in a similar situation, didn't consider it rape and were relatively non-traumatised by it.

Aussieng are you a legal-type person? I only ask because you seem well informed on the legal aspects and in which case we should listen to you re the legal definition of rape requiring intent! What you say seems quite reasonable to me, anyway!

Am quite surprised at the whole "rape-is-rape" brigade- to me it's not so black and white. Like I said, the taking away of life isn't always murder. presumably penetration without written and signed consent isn't always, then, rape in the traditional sense of the word. Rape is a very very serious allegation- it can completely destroy a man and ruin his life, even if it is false, so I would be hugely wary of branding someone a rapist based on the events suggested here.