The almost interesting saga of the almost-OM update

[HesterPrynne]

Sorry, I had hoped to come back before the original thread disappeared off the first page, but then... nada.

As you may remember I had emailed a local counsellor, but H persuaded me not to make an appointment, but to save, money and neuroses, for Relate, which he absolutely promised to arrange.

So far nothing's happened... "I've been too busy, will do it tomorrow." "They're not answering the phone/email" "They said I had to confirm the date (poss this Wed) with you, now they're not answering again," are a selection of the excuses I have been given.

Now even asking about it causes snappiness and sulks.

I'm really tempted to say, if we're not in a conversation with a third party by Wednesday night, then that's it - you'll have confirmed our marriage is not your priority.

Can't decide if that's a fair ultimatum or not.

Still trying hard to keep almost-OM at more than arms length, but its so difficult when things are so tense at home.

And although I haven't come completely clean, I have told H that my vows are under considerable strain, but my intention is to make our marriage work if he'll work with me. No real sign of that yet, though

Right, well, the anger is Parent, so she can shut up

Adult Hester is very sensible to want to be loved, and to feel that her life has a point and a meaning.

Now she needs to decide the best way to go about getting that.

New job? New man? New relationship with old man? All the above?

Dare I say...a couple of sessions of therapy?

What do you think, Belle?

I think the desire to be loved is rather more adult than childlike... I think you deserve all of those things.

I also thought the conversation you had earlier in the thread (and that's still here really) about not feeling that your feelings are worthwhile or important was very telling. If you're able to explore that further in therapy that might really change things for you.

You've created a strong reciprocal relationship with both Bobbie and me on here in the space of a few days and not any actual face to face interaction. Shouldn't speak for Bobbie but I think I'm right in saying that we both care very much about you and what happens next. "What Hester Did Next". Your feelings are important to us so please don't worry that you're being self indulgent etc by posting here.

Now, the AOM, be kind to yourself. If that means a gentle easing away rather than breaking things off immediately then perhaps that's best for now?

Very wise words.

Hester needs to know she's important. Not just think it. Really know it.

Ah, I'm not wise (but thank you).

I'm going to disappear in a bit for a long bath and an early night. Have to be up early for stupid London meetings (would rather be going shopping). Have missed being on here really - just didn't want to be in the way. Thank you for welcoming me back.

In the way?

Silly.

Hope to speak soon. Have a good day in the Smoke. I'm sure you'll be fabulous in your new outfit.

Now I'm crying again, you're both so kind.

I think AOM may well be now planning a strategic retreat of his own. Just had what might be construed as our first row: all I wanted was a bit of 'there, there it'll be all right' and he just keeps pushing the idea of me not doing anything rash, not leaving the kids, the devastation it would cause, etc.

Not sure how much self-interest is in there, though. I'm safer in my marriage that out of it.

Back to adult Hester, she's been looking for a better, proper job for a long time, but there's nothing around, in fact there's a chance she could lose more hours soon.

And she definitely doesn't know where love is (now I'm sounding like Oliver Twist). H probably does still want her, but she's really not sure she can reciprocate any more .

AOM is less and less of an option with each passing day

Sorry Belle, xpost. I'm in London too tomorrow, working. Maybe we'll pass and I'll think 'I wish I looked so smart and together'.

Don't desert us again.

This is what I really think, and what I'm working on myself, so I don't profess to be 'there' yet.

But...I detect that you don't love yourself, Hester.

You've got to start taking yourself seriously - your feelings, your needs, your wants.

You matter, love. You do.

But if you don't believe it, no-one else will.

That's your starting point. Love yourself. Then you can start to expect more from those around you.

Easier said than done, I know. Try for some therapy, if at all possible.

Also - how are you with self help books? I know some people file them under 'B' for Bullshit, but there are some inspiring books out there. Have you read Women Who Run with the Wolves? (I have more titles up my sleeve if you're open to the idea).

Ooh, I'm not sure about self-help books, I sort of want to read them, but would be embarrassed to be seen reading them.

It's my northern 'say nowt, feel nowt' upbringing again. There's forever a little Mancunian in my head saying, 'just pull yoursen together lass, you don't want to be spending good money on that rubbish'

The same goes for therapy really. Relate is about both of us, so's ok. Just me is just frivolous indulgence

Nope. It's not. It's bloody essential.

Look, I was born in the grim North too, and I had that voice in my head. It was my mother's actually.

"You don't know you're born, you don't know what trouble is, blah blah blah."

Thing is though, Hester, for all her pull yourself together nonsense, she had two nervous breakdowns while I was growing up, and spent chunks of my childhood on tranquillisers. But that was okay, because it was medicine .

What harm are you doing reading a book? Blimey, if you want a copy I'll post you one. I think every woman should read Wolves. I fully intend to give one to my niece for her eighteenth. She'll hate it at first, but will come round to it eventually.

While we're on the subject, I think Feel The Fear and Do It Anyway and Women Who Think Too Much would make interesting reading. And The Joy Diet. And The Alchemist by Paulo Coehlo.

And if I'm not sticking my neck out too much, have you read Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay?

Half an hour a night in your bedroom/the bath reading a book.

A good way to honour yourself without upsetting or inconveniencing anyone.

A baby step.

Try it.

I think we're way past the point of 'sticking your neck out'

As far as I know, no one in my immediate family has been on ADs, had therapy or counselling. Nobody's been divorced, or separated. Although I know there's been affairs and dalliances. This is all so strange to me, and it feels all the more like I'm making a meal out of nothing.

But... which one do I start with?

Yes, I know what you mean. Nobody been divorced in my family either...freaks

Sometimes it's a lot to live up to, isn't it?

Look, if you're miserable, that's important. Emotions are how we know that something is wrong/right.

If you are happy, do you ever catch yourself laughing and smiling, and think "oh, what right have I to laugh? How dare I be happy?"

I would guess not...but we are never to take negative emotions seriously...because that might mean rocking the boat for others. And we can't have that, can we?

I would say Women Who Run With the Wolves would be an excellent book for you to read. It deals with Jungian interpretations of fairytales and myths from a feminist perspective (not selling this particularly well am I? ) and is by Clarissa Pinkola Estes.

Amazon is your friend, Hester

Blimey, I've gone emoticon-crazy! Sorry, that will be the wine...

Actually, I like the sound of that book. I've always loved interpretations of myths and fairy tales and their psychological basis. I will seek it out.

And I do occasionally catch myself laughing, particularly with H, and stopping myself, because it feels wrong to be happy with him. As if I'm betraying myself, not him, somehow. See this is the sort of stuff I don't want to explore, even you and Belle might not like me in the end.

Seriously, I do think I'm a 'good' person, but I do find it really difficult to make and keep friends as if I make an OK office friend/acquaintance, but nothing more lasting/deeper. What if therapy shows that I'm actually not a good person to know, that it's not coincidence that I have only heard from one London friend in the two-plus years since I left?

I don't think I stop myself laughing with anyone else. I suspect it's a form of punishment, not sure who I'm punishing though, him or me

I know that therapy won't 'tell' me anything, I suppose I've always thought of myself of being friendly and easygoing, what if I discover I'm not. Or I did until I became a hissing, angry harridan

If you remember the original thread was me fearing I may actually be abusing H. I still couldn't definitely say I'm not

Gosh, you sound sad.

I do have to go now, but remember this.

As far as I'm aware, abusive spouses don't normally find their way onto message boards to question their behaviour.

Maybe you're not behaving wonderfully to dh atm. Unhappy people rarely are rays of sunshine, though.

Please be kind to yourself. Treat yourself to a book.

Speak soon.

Morning ladies... 5:30 start here courtesy of DD!

Couple of things (quickly and more later when I'm on the train - if I go as v snowy - availing myself of free wireless) immediately atruck me on reading your conversation. Firstly, I was just like Bobbie pre-therapy. Wouldn't let anyone in - friends or lovers. Didn't really trust anyone not to hurt me so had built a really effective protective shell. Did a lot of "work" (ie jabbering) about allowing myself to be vulnerable. Hated it at first but has, oddly, proved to make me stronger. How did that happen? I'm more open to people in general and more forgiving but allowing myself to be vulnerable hasn't resulted in more hurt or confusion. Bizarre. Not sure if that's relevant really?

Now, secondly, and rather embarrassingly, I was thinking about you as I was drifting off to sleep (I'm sure Freud would have a field day with that but you were just on my mind really). I came to a conclusion about Hester and maybe Bobbie (but not sure about you!!). I think that you are essentially a romantic. Your love of brooding Russian types ; the fact that art and literature clearly move you; your work; your needs; etc all speak of a romantic soul. I don't mean hearts and flowers - I mean someone who sees the beauty around; cares about things; feels deeply; is not superficial; all that stuff. There's prbably a better word than "romantic" but I can't think of it.

Now, that's all fine and dandy but I think your DH is probably a pragmatist. Sooo, I'm not sure he actually really understands how much you need to be appreciated and "romanced" (again, don't mean tacky, superficial stuff). Even if he is hearing the words I'm not sure he would be able to necessarily appreciate why. So, I thought if we could find a way to express your needs in a more practical way it might help him to see how/where to change things for the benefit of you both?

I was only thinking this way because of your thoughts around staying with DH if he could be how you need him to be. I hope I'm not being dog/bone like however!

This is all supposition so is probably nonsense but I wondered if that might the case with a lot of relationships? One pragmatist and one romantic? And I don't necessarily think that the woman is always the romantic either!!

Now, back to reality, I've read the Women/Wolves book but ages and ages ago. I bet I've given it away but am going to see if it's still kicking around and re-read. Will buy another copy if not.

Hey, it csn be our "Book of the Month" for March!!

Belle, I'm impressed at such clarity of thought at silly o'clock!

I think you've hit the nail on the head a bit there. Speaking for myself, both my therapists have come up with the idea that I am essentially driven by emotion, whereas dh is logical and pragmatic. This makes communication very difficult indeed, and we have to work hard on learning each other's language. Maybe Hester and her H are similar...

Great idea about Women/Wolves...should we start a new thread for it? I could do to re-read it. Again.

Have a good day, both of you, out there in the capital, being all important. I shall be dragging myself through the supermarket, then being dragged by my dogs through mud...

Oh Bobbie, I envy you. I had a mad dash to catch the train and am now ensconced in my reserved seat and (yippee) the person who should have got on to sit next to me at my station didn't so have spread belongings out and left "reserved" label showing in the hope that no-one else nips into the seat. Sadly, if the train becomes busy I'll be compelled to clear my stuff and offer the seat. Why? What is wrong with me

My "important" day consists of getting into King's Cross, getting a taxi to the City (where our HQ is) and then being bored rigid for three hours in a presentation/forum about a technology which is (a) mind numbingly dull and (b) I already know all about. Stupid high profile and I work in a team looking after one of our biggest clients so someone has to do it.

My dream lifestyle does not imclude this kind of corporate stuff (although I'm good at it - preen, preen). I'd love a lifestyle where it was all my money (lottery win perhaps?) so I don't have to worry about it (if you see what I mean); have a lovely big old house with an Aga (v important); huuuuge kitchen; lovely but battered decor around; lots of rooms upstairs and down; in the middle of nowhere. I actually know the exact house which is an old Georgian rectory that was still owned by the church but locked up when I was little. We used to, erm, break in during the school holidays. We didn't do any damage but we used to spend a lot of time there. It's a beautiful house and was sold long ago and has been beautifully restored. I bet it's worth in excess of £3m now (sob!). Anyway, when I'm not walking around gloating, I will be spending my days on horses (it has stables); walking dogs; pampering cats; and being paid for my opinion as I will miraculously have landed a newspaper/magazine column where I fascinate the country with my wit and insight.

If you can be bothered, scroll down this article and look at the house in the snow [[http://dulwichonview.org.uk/2008/10/03/the-other-sir-johna-soaneian-vignette/ here) and see my dream home. I think I may have ideas beyong my means!!!

Phew, I enjoyed that!

here even.

Now, that, was self indulgent!

And some cheeky so and so has just sat down next to me without even checking the reserved ticket!! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

It is me...had to namechange and delete a couple of posts from this thread. Hope you don't mind!

I'm writing this sitting as near to my aga as the dogs will let me get. And I am in the middle of nowhere. And I've certainly got the battered decor but not the massive Georgian pile, sadly...

I have to say, your day still sounds more interesting than mine, but the grass is always greener isn't it?

Oh no, he wants to talk... Surely a laptop and an iPod sends s clear enough message??

Wow, that is some house...

re: the cheeky interloper next to you...could you possibly bring yourself to fart?

Ooh, is he cute?