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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Is it possible for a marriage to survive without intimacy?

77 replies

Popzie · 17/11/2009 22:22

Background: Been married six years, we get along fine, have a laugh sometimes, still have sex from time to time (quite nice as well) and have two young DC's.

The only trouble is that there is no intimacy between us. Not because we once had it and complacency has set in or anything - we never actually had it in the first place. DH is totally incapable of being intimate - the best he can do is call me by a silly nicname and give me a quick cuddle. No explaining or advising helps at all - he is simply incapable of being at all tender or connecting on a deeper level.

I am an analytical, perceptive and intuitive person and I'm beginning to get worn down by this after all these years of missing out of a good 'heart to heart' with a partner (XP's were all capable of it!). Being this perceptive, intuitive person I did realise this was the case at the start, but also being a very positive person, I thought - wait for it - I could CHANGE him! (I forgot to say I'm obviously a foolish person too!)

Is this it? Do I have to focus on other aspects of our relationship to make up for this lack of intimacy or will it eventually kill it? I feel vulnerable to the fact I might fall for someone else who will fill this void and it worries me.

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 18/11/2009 10:47

Popzie. On a very basic level, what you are saying is that you have a large need that is being unmet. In any relationship, having such a big need unmet will cause problems in the future, not least when someone comes along who appears to meet that need. I do think there are some people for whom a lack of tenderness and intimacy would not be a problem - but you always knew you weren't one of them. And I suspect that the vast majority of people share the need for intimacy and connection in their romantic relationship - I know I do.

However, on an ethical level, you always knew that your H wasn't like this and therefore it would be terribly unfair to him if you were to get involved with someone else. You are showing great foresight in realising that you are vulnerable and so here's what I think you could do.

You say you have explained and advised to your H about this need - and he says he cannot do it. However, I wonder whether you have explained yourself as clearly as you have in your post - it could be that you need to change the conversation. I think a lot of couples have these "groundhog" day conversations that are in essence the same each time - and find that nothing changes. If every time we do something, the same unproductive result occurs, it follows that we need to change what we are doing. In this case, it means you need to change the conversations you are having about this matter.

I wonder whether he has always been like this in his previous relationships - did he ever show tenderness and imtimacy with partners? Could it be that he did once and got badly hurt, therefore he surrounds himself in a sort of protective shell? If someone was unfaithful to him before, this often happens. Unfortunately, this behaviour then becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy that infidelity will happen again.

What was his childhood like? Was affection and sentimentality frowned upon in his family? It takes many years to unlearn the lessons absorbed in childhood.

I think counselling would really work for you and in this case, some on his own might help, as well as some couples counselling.

In your shoes, if you are able to tell us that his behaviour has been learned because of earlier hurts - either in childhood or a previous relationship - my approach would be to reassure him that you would never be unfaithful to him, but that you do need change - and that if he cannot do that, you might have to part. I would say that you realise that many people in your situation go down the affair route, but you have far too much respect and love for him (and yourself) to do that. He should therefore regard this honesty from you as a great gift.

I would say that you have realised that you cannot go on without intimacy and connection and that it is a really big deal to you - you cannot be happy with him without it in fact. You don't want to leave the marriage and would like him to work with you on this - and go to counselling. Be very firm on this - he should be left in no doubt how serious this is and how imperilled the marriage is. He needs to wake up and see the need for change.

On the other hand, if he still insists he is "just like this" and incapable of change - and cannot (or will not) trace this behaviour back to an earlier event, then you have to decide whether you can live with him as he is. If you feel you cannot (and I couldn't) then all I would say is, please do the ethical thing and end the relationship rather than waiting for an affair opportunity to present.

Popzie · 18/11/2009 12:35

WhenwillIfeelnormal; you are a star. Thanks for such a well thought out and insightful post. What you say is 100%

To give more bones to my plight: DH didn't have any relationships before me. He just played the field, never promised anyone anything, never gave anything, until we got together and married.

We have already tried counselling in the past, for some problems we had after my DD came along. We did speak about it there. The couseller asked him to tell me something he loved about me. Four years later I'm still waiting for just one answer! He ended up looking like a frightened rabbit and the counseller said we should back off because it looked as if he was gonna cry under the pressure.

I don't try and speak about it to him directly anymore because he gets panicky (aaah - girl's stuff and all that). So instead I've tried and encouraged a deeper connection many-a-time by making our conversation lighter hearted in order to try and tap into a deeper part of him. I might get so far but the conversation will just stop as he won't ask me anything back and we end up just talking about the house and money again. My DH is a 'what you see is what you get' type of person and there ain't no changing it!

His past is pretty stable - he was brought up with brothers and a mum who is reliable but also a bit 'blokish' (we laugh at the fact that her sensitive side was obliterated over the years by all the testosterone in the family). It was a very middle class family, and his dad is a very gentile, sensitive and lovely man indeed - so no pressure from him to be the tough guy in any sense.

I did think that being the sort of soulful person I am, it might over the years rub off on him and he may end up softeneing up and opening up a bit. I suppose it has a bit (it was worse at the start) and it could also carry on improving, but there is something else that I haven't been entirely honest about.

The reason why this is all such an issue now is because I am actually on the verge of having an affair now - with someone I go a long way back with. Predictable I know. I feel dreadful as you paid tribute to my so called honesty and integrity, and I'm proving to be just the opposite.

I wasn't looking for 'it', 'it' found me when I was least expecting it. I hardly need to say that this OM is more than able to fill in the intimacy golf - he totally reaches the places the DH does not. It's also a close friend of DH's and the situation could end up a catastrophe.

I just wanted to look deeper at the void in my marriage and consider the impact it's had on me over the years. In truth, I have hardened to the lack of emotional understanding in my marriage and have just got on with things without it. Before the OM approached me four months ago and blew me away with his declaration I was like stone inside - no libido, very cynical and a bit bitter to be honest. I was not happy. Now people are commenting about how mellow I am, how bright and well I seem - ironically my DH thinks it's wonderful that I've found a new lease of life. Of course no-body but the OM knows why I'm now like this.

OP posts:
Popzie · 18/11/2009 13:12

WWIFN: are you there? I could really do with some more of your wisdom.

OP posts:
Malificence · 18/11/2009 13:12

I think you know that an affair will destroy everything and everyone in the aftermath.

I also think you owe it to yourself and your husband to be completely honest and tell him you you feel about your life together - if you've gone through counselling and it hasn't helped him open up to you when he knows it's an issue, it may very well be an unresolvable situation.

At the very basic level, you are not getting what you need from him, that's why you are so drawn to the OM.

Tell him he is pushing you away and you feel you are in danger of looking for intimacy elsewhere.

If he can't give you what you need after 6 years then he probably never can.
You haven't said whether you actually love him?

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 18/11/2009 13:14

Popzie - I'm feeling a bit irritated that you were disingenuous in your original post - my advice would have been very different. However, I accept that people have their own reasons for not showing their hand and it was my decision to take time out to post.

The first thing I'd say is to dispense with the illusion that you are "on the verge of an affair" and recognise that you are already having one. The fact that he is a friend of your DH is especially cruel. While I understand the circumstances that led you to this, you made a decision when you responded to the OM's declaration.

I just hope that having done this, you will seek to minimise the hurt and stop deceiving your H any longer. Either treat this as a wake-up call and ditch the OM - or tell your H and leave. Both options however should involve telling your H what has been happening.

Popzie · 18/11/2009 13:38

I'm sorry I mislead you. I did it because I wanted your opinion on the initimacy matter - the catalyst of this whole situation - aside from the distraction of the OM.

Adultery is an extremely emotive subject and as soon as it's brought into the equation it becomes, understandably, the entire focus of the debate. Whether or not an OM is involved the intimacy problem is still here. Maybe the OM is an exit strategy, maybe he saw the holes in the relationship and is deciding to take advantage. Who knows at this point. I just wanted to mention it at this point because I needed to communicate the urgency and the speed at which events are taking place here.

Your first post to me is still entirely relevant and has helped me break down the problem and better analyse it. At the heart of this situation is the initmacy issue. Can a marriage survive without it? You say yes, depending on the person, but not you. I say the same. For some late night heart to hearts, reflecting on the relationship in the spotlight, looking at things from fresh angles, providing reassurance, tenderness and developing an understanding on a different level than you have with your friends may not matter. But it does to me like it does to you.

Thanks for taking the time out and I'm sorry again for holding back important facts, but I do really take on board what you've said and you've been a great help.

PS Malificent; I would say I care about him, but I don't love him. I am now also wondering if he actually loves me, even though he says he does from time to time. Sometimes he makes the joke: 'whatever love is!' so the jury is out.

OP posts:
AnyFucker · 18/11/2009 14:34

wwifn, you really are a saint, not to blow a fuse on this thread

I agree, the Op is already having an affair and cuckolding her husband

really not fair

I read the OP before I went to work this morning and quite honestly, had a double-take. He calls you a silly nickname and you get the odd cuddle or two ?

Do you know what, outside of the bedroom, that's all I get too. I have a good marriage. Some people are just not into all the deep stuff.

I sympathise with your DH, OP and I think you are treating him absolutely appallingly. His close friend ? By God, if you were a man posting you would get an absolute pasting, and deservedly so.

You sound like very, very hard work to me, with a rather well-developed sense of entitlement and actually your DH might be better off without you.

roxi09 · 18/11/2009 14:47

Popzie have a good hard think about what you want out of life before you even consider taking things with the other man any further.
Your marriage won't survive an affair the way it is now.
This OM will fill all the gaps in your life, and while you have him in your life you will be blissfully happy because all your needs are being met.
However when it ends, which it will, the things that were missing in your life will still be there, but will be worse because you know things can be different.
That's when you will come to the point of wanting to get out and find someone who can make you feel like the OM did, your husband will never again be enough for you and your marriage will be over.
Take it from me, I am going through this exact thing at the moment.
If you want to ultimately still be married to your husband and work on things, please do not go there.
You are opening a can of worms that will just get bigger and more nasty if you have this affair.

LeQueen · 18/11/2009 17:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Popzie · 18/11/2009 18:11

Thanks all. It's been taken on board.

OP posts:
Spaceman · 18/11/2009 20:17

Oooh judge judge judg judge judge.

whenwilifeelnormal, why would your reply to OP have been different if you knew she had already embarked on said affair?

The question was about intimacy in her marriage. Would your reply have been different just because she is now guilty of adultery. Would you all have waded in and chastised OP for her sins? What would you have said differently if you had got to the bottom of the OP and it said 'and by the way I slept with another man at the weekend'.

The problem to me looks as if it's been going on for years. For gawds sake, waiting years and years and still not getting a reason why your DH loved you is to me barmy.

Oh and then there's the 'why did you marry him' stone to cast. We all go into marriage with our eyes wide shut - if yours is working for you then woopy do you're the lucky ones.

The problem with MN is that you're never going to know who the hell is involved in these situations, so quit balking quite so sancitmoniously at other people's dilemmas.

zebramummy · 18/11/2009 20:40

i think that roxi speaks a lot of sense - for me, what is most worrying of all is that you do not profess to be 'in love' with the OM and use the expression 'affair' in relation to your own situation. it is as though you are some kind of manager allocating your resources across various life needs regardless of the effect this would have on your dh on a human level.

londonartemis · 18/11/2009 20:43

Popzie...I do sympathise with you, because I think it has now dawned on you that you have married the wrong man and you don't know what to do about it because it's going to be nasty and messy. However, could you, hand on heart, try to turn round your relationship with your husband? Is there a chance still there,- and there is a child involved - or have you actually given up on him? If there is a genuine desire/potential to save it, then go all out for it - more counselling, more talking, more honesty. Tell the OM to stay away.
I am curious about what the OM thinks about it all - whether he is playing with you, and what he thinks about betraying his mate.
I understand the need for intimacy, but some men aren't built for that, and many women learn to live without it.

veryconfusedandupset · 18/11/2009 21:09

Popzie, everytime this subject comes up - and it does repeatedly - you get the same posters saying the same things time and time again.

You can't help how you feel, none of us get married for the dress and the cake - that is ridiculous. We are in love and know that no one is perfect, we think we can live with and adore our husbands as they are, and then some years down the line what seemed like a charmingly shy indifference becomes a severe inability to communicate or an adorable outgoing personality just seems boorish.None of us mean things to turn out as they do.

Usually women who try to find what they need and remain with their partners get severely slated on here. Is your OM an alternative prospect or does he have his own committments? If he is married or connected to someone else then regardless of the morality it will end, he will probably end it because statistically that is what happens, or you might because after a while reality does kick in and these situations are exhausting and draining.

It does sound to me as if you might want to think about just being on your own a bit - your husband does sound very hard work indeed and the OM - I get the impression- is not asking you to run away with him.

You will get a lot of advice on here to confess all to your DH, most relationships advisors counsel against this self indulgent path - if you chose the route of an EMA you need to be up to coping with the strong feelings it produces, offloading and upsetting others needlessly is not a good idea.

Popzie · 18/11/2009 21:22

I can see everyone's point of view, but it just makes me feel more despair. Just like Spaceman points out, these are only words on a page and I can't sum the situation up properly - the complexity is extreme.

I am in love with the OM, I don't know if I'm in love with my DH. I'm trying to be objective by saying I'm in an 'affair' because that's what it is and I know that if I tried to call it anything else it wouldn't wash with you other MNers.

The OM has been in love with me for 14 years. He can remember every detail about our past, knows everything about me. We had a fling at the beginning (before I was with DH). Why didn't he do anything back then? Well he has his reasons. All in all hindsight is a wonderful thing, but it can't help you out in the pesent when you need it the most.

I can honestly say that I also ask the same quesitons that London has posed about the intentions of OM. But he wouldn't play with me as there is so much at stake - it would be totally insane - and I know he's not the type to ever intentionally hurt anyone. After sitting on the sidline for years I think he's decided to make a move on me because he can see a chink in the armour and knows I'm not happy. I can't believe he would do this to his friend either. He is either a sadist, a bit stupid or just stupidly in love. I think it's a mixture of the last two. So am I, I suppose.

Ten years ago when I got together with DH I was besotted. I didn't know what I wanted from marriage. He was on a pedestal. It happens to a lot of people that what they want in their early 20's is not what they want in their mid-30's. I was a party animal in those days, now I'm a SAHM and business woman. I've changed and so have my prirorites in a partner. Life is not perfect for any of us, in fact despite the best intentions it ends up a mess for a lot of us.

OP posts:
HorribleMuddle · 18/11/2009 21:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

AnyFucker · 18/11/2009 21:26

just out of interest, vcau

all "those same posters" who advised you on your OM threads....do you think they gave you good advice?

do you wish you had taken it on board sooner?

or were they all totally wasting their time to try and make you face the reality of your situation (not the silly, idealised fantasy that you were actually living in ?)

Popzie · 18/11/2009 21:29

Thanks vcau. Your post has really comforted me.

I have no intention of blurting this out to DH. I have to work out everything out first before I make any move. I have thought about being on my own and it is an attractive proposition - I just don't know how I'll feel once I've made the break. I'm very frightened of feeling lonely, because I work on my own and I have no family near me. But on the other hand I am very independant and it may feel just great if I separate from DH.

I wouldn't want to do anything over and above 'date' OM afterwards anyway. I have no plans to bag him or move him in as a substitute. In fact, as you can tell I don't have much of a plan at all at the moment.

OP posts:
Popzie · 18/11/2009 21:34

OM is single, with no commitments.

OP posts:
veryconfusedandupset · 18/11/2009 21:37

I think we all have to make up our own minds - whatever happens in these situations it ends badly. You leave home and create chaos, you stay at home and are miserable ( even if only for a while) actually getting dumped was quite a good resolution for me - once I'd got over the crisis and tears because I began to re invest at home and it is paying dividends. I also still have the idea that some sort of complementary relationship is not always a good ides, particularly for those more mature people who can behave sensibly and not like love struck teenagers - a skill I would have to acquire if ever I went down that route again - which is probably unlikely. All I'm saying is that people tend not to think about the problems the poster has in these situations but just use these threads as opportunities to do a "Well what I think is...." and often indulge in a bit of gratuitous name calling.

veryconfusedandupset · 18/11/2009 21:37

I meant "a bad idea"

jemart · 18/11/2009 21:39

You have 2 DCs, what happens to them if you leave their Father? how will it make them feel?
Do your marriage vows hold no meaning for you at all?

choosyfloosy · 18/11/2009 21:40

I don't know much about these situations. The only thing I do know is that contemplating your marriage while having any sort of emotional connection to another person is like trying to look out of a dark window while sitting at a desk with a 100W lamp on. You are just not going to see what is out there clearly while you are blinded by this lamp.

Hoping that you will find a respectful (to yourself as well as others) way through this.

Popzie · 18/11/2009 21:52

Jemart; the DC's are the main consideration. I would not be having this discussion if I were married without DC's. I'd be long gone.

Choosy: I have contemplated this dilemma for years, it's just now I feel it is crunch time. I love the light/windown analogy by the way!

I have never looked at my wedding photo's in the whole time I've been married. I didn't like my wedding day much and I almost called off the wedding before but didn't have the guts. I didn't want to let anyone down so I went ahead. The proposal was a very drunken night on holiday. Trying not to be hurtful back then is leading to this whole mess now. I thought my jitters were just me being too over analytical and that 'people get married all the time it must be fine', that I should just take that leap.

How can you ever KNOW if you've never experienced knowing before? Truth is you can't.

OP posts:
LeQueen · 18/11/2009 22:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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