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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Is it possible for a marriage to survive without intimacy?

77 replies

Popzie · 17/11/2009 22:22

Background: Been married six years, we get along fine, have a laugh sometimes, still have sex from time to time (quite nice as well) and have two young DC's.

The only trouble is that there is no intimacy between us. Not because we once had it and complacency has set in or anything - we never actually had it in the first place. DH is totally incapable of being intimate - the best he can do is call me by a silly nicname and give me a quick cuddle. No explaining or advising helps at all - he is simply incapable of being at all tender or connecting on a deeper level.

I am an analytical, perceptive and intuitive person and I'm beginning to get worn down by this after all these years of missing out of a good 'heart to heart' with a partner (XP's were all capable of it!). Being this perceptive, intuitive person I did realise this was the case at the start, but also being a very positive person, I thought - wait for it - I could CHANGE him! (I forgot to say I'm obviously a foolish person too!)

Is this it? Do I have to focus on other aspects of our relationship to make up for this lack of intimacy or will it eventually kill it? I feel vulnerable to the fact I might fall for someone else who will fill this void and it worries me.

OP posts:
Popzie · 19/11/2009 12:44

There isn't suddenly a huge chance he's been unfaithful - it was just another one for the pot thrown in originally by WWIFN. I had thought wouldn't it be just barmy if he was also having an affair, that's all.

The OM hasn't planted any seeds of doubt either. I do question his loyalties though and can't come to any other conclusion other than he chooses me over his mate. Maybe he is eeking his way in for bigger things in the future, I don't know. I have issues with him also, in the fact that I can't believe he'd risk so much. He knows the concequences are massive but has gone ahead anyway. He said 'for you the rules are different'.

You are right, I am confused. I have a lot to be confused about.

OP posts:
AnyFucker · 19/11/2009 12:47

blimey popzie, you are the queen of stealth my dear!

seriously, you don't love your husband

leave him

whatever comes after that will work itself out

Popzie · 19/11/2009 13:01

Thanks Anyfucker, it's good to take things back a step or two and have some faith in things working themselves out okay.

OP posts:
BelleDameSansMerci · 19/11/2009 13:10

Totally agree with AF.

Really hope things work out for you whichever way you decide to go. Truly believe that staying with someone you don't respect is impossible.

veryconfusedandupset · 19/11/2009 13:43

Now, you probably will think I'm suggesting something rather crackpot here - so don't feel obliged to agree or follow up.

I don't go on much on here about my Buddhist beliefs - doing the best you can - which is what is required is not that easy and my best isn't up to much in many rspects in any event. I do however feel it has a lot to offer.

If you have not tried Zen meditation( well Soto Zen in my case) it simply involves sitting quietly and encouraging all conscious thought to flow away. Once you are free of distractions it becomes much easier to just feel what is the right thing to do - Buddhism promotes the view that we all have within us the wherewithall to solve our problems, we just need to access the tool kit, and that is where the meditation comes in. Even if it doesn't work that way for you it is very beneficial and calming to try for 10 - 30 minutes in the morning or last thing at night. I have noticed that it is virtually impossible to carry on with something very perverse after meditation.

End of strange view.

Popzie · 19/11/2009 14:00

Tis not crackpot at all! I love meditation, but have fallen out of the habbit of doing it. Stupid really when I need it the most.

I will definately make some time for it. In fact, I'm going off now and doing it while I have the chance.

Thanks for the advice. Maybe I'll have the answers in my next thread.

OP posts:
jools37 · 19/11/2009 18:06

Popzie, your situation sounds horrendous. If my DH were like that, I would definitely leave, I would rather be alone. My DH is in many ways a good husband, and he is a fantastic father. I am in a similar situation to HorribleMuddle.

I have talked to DH about our situation and how I see him just as a friend and no longer have any physical desire for him at all. He does not care, he doesn't want sex and is happy for us to live like this. I thought I could handle it too until OM came back onto the scene and made me remember how it could be, now I am not sure I want to miss out on proper passion for the next 40 years.

OM and I have not slept together again (although we did when we were together before my marriage) and he says he does not want to destroy my marriage if I think I can salvage it.

If it were not for my DC, I would walk away and see what else life has to offer, but I cannot be so blase with the happiness of my girls. At the moment, it seems I am the only one who is unhappy, but I have the potential to make everyone I know miserable for the sake of my own happiness. Can that type of selfishness ever lead to real happiness?

I have asked my DH directly whether he is having an affair,which might make his lack of desire for sex make sense. I even suspected he might be gay, but although I have given him loads of chances to tell me, he denies it. To be honest, he has never had a particularly high sex drive, even in the early days, and he says it has just dwindled to nothing, and I no longer even want him to touch me. I do still love him, in many ways, as I said he is my best friend, we know we can live together and he understands me very well.It is a comfortable existence which many people could put up with I suppose, I am just not sure it is enough for me any more. I see myself getting older and chances for real passion and happiness slipping away.

I wish I could see things as black and white as many of you do, but I think it is easier to judge other people's situations when you are not emotionally involved. I just can't see the right path for us from the middle of this muddle. I wish I had a crystal ball, so I could see which path leads to the happiest ending for us all. Fear of making the wrong decision is paralysing me.

butterballs · 19/11/2009 19:00

This kind of situation is so common - maybe not so early on, but later on.....why not just try to accept the uncertainty and ride with the wave? Marriage is never perfect, one person can rarely tick all the boxes (not that they should be expected to)certainly not over very long periods of time. People change, situations change, other people enter into one's life. Perhaps it's just a question of accepting the Zen philosophy (or whatever, not that I know what that is particularly). Don't beat yourself up about it. Just accept that, right now, this is what is happening in your life.

Monogamy is probably a fairly hopeless way of living over the long term - hence the divorces/affairs etc.

Sorry, probably not helpful, but don't beat yourself up about it. There are many people in similar situations.

Popzie · 19/11/2009 20:21

Butter; it's great to have that view. I am getting to think this is the way too. I reckon just do what I have to do and it'll hopefully all pan out.

I am not going to break it off with OM right now. I can't because I'm still interested and curious about it all. Hopefully I'll get it out of my system and I will be able to carry on focusing on what I should be focusing on - the DC's and family life. If I were to break it off now my mouth would always be watering at the thought of him. I'm hoping after seeing him a few times it'll not seem worth it and I'll be able to end it. I know how that sounds and I am preparing for a barage of abuse as to how selfish I am etc, but you know what I think that is better than coming clean and imposing a hastily made, life-changing decision upon everyone involved just so that can say I've been 'honest'. If it were the other way around, I would prefer my DH to keep it secret from me, I absolutely would not want to know.

Jools; Funnily enough, I think your situation is clearer than mine. My DH is an arse a few percent of the time, but is good the rest of the time and he does and will 'perform' in the bedroom. He keeps himself fit and has a lot going for him still. So, he ain't perfect, but he delivers as a DH should and aside from the drunken behaviour and some shit he put me through a while ago I can't say that he has this coming to him really.

However, if I were in your shoes and I had no sex whatsoever and a partner who admitted he had nothing to offer me in that department then I'd have to do what my friend did and get out of the marriage on the terms that you are no longer living as man and wife should. There is no way I'd stay with my DH if there was no hope of a spark ever. I'm sure even the Church recognises no sex ever as a good reason for separation, doesn't it?

OP posts:
AnyFucker · 19/11/2009 20:29

ok, so the conclusion you have come to after this thread is..

carry on as you were

still curious and interested ? So, you have given yourself permission to shag him too?

ho-kaaaay

I'm sure "the church" does not recognise adultery as a viable option either...

< leaves thread >

zebramummy · 19/11/2009 20:42

popzie - with the further info you provided, i agree that he sounds pretty repulsive and out of control - i would not put up with dh urinating in my bed - i would even be livid if poor little ds did it (and he is only 4, thankfully never had an accident at night touch wood). do you think his alcoholism contributes to his lack of interest in sex?

regardless of what you choose to do, i think you probably need time out from both relationships to see the wood for the trees. ask dh to move out 'temporarily' for an agreed period. ask om to back off altogether during that time and sort your head out

Biobytes · 19/11/2009 20:43

Popzie, I'm sorry, I think that I have to agree with those that say they would leave. A relationship without sex is just... well, a friendship?

My ex was absolutely R U B B I S H in bed, no matter how interested he was, I eventually got bored and eventually realised that no matter how good friends we were, there was nothing left. I ended up resenting him big time (more so because he always blamed the rubbish sex on me. The idiot )

Leaving him was the best decision I have ever taken, even when I may be left homeless and in a precarious economical condition. Now I have worries, but before... I felt dead.

Popzie · 19/11/2009 20:46

Biobytes; were you married and do you have DCs?

OP posts:
zebramummy · 19/11/2009 20:51

i would add that the fact that you have previously had a fling with this OM does make a huge difference to your feelings about this situation - just remember that you are not the same age/with the same sorts of responsibilities you had then so dont live in hope of recapturing the past and feeling as you did then when deciding to lunge into an affair. everybody involved will prob find out one day and there will be people hurt by it all - it is not like in the good old days when people could keep these things secret and get on with life by 'moving on' - we live in an age of information overload and by simply posting on a public forum such as MN there will be somebody else who comes on here in a few years time, who knows who you are & remembers some details about your past from a previous conversation you may have had with them - they shall have a eureka moment and the next thing you know, your children will be asking you about it - be prepared to have some good answers...

butterballs · 19/11/2009 21:10

Zebramummy - stop being so over-dramatic - do you really imagine that the whole world is going to stop/everyone is going to drop dead/ the poster is going to be stoned to death - because she had a fling - oh pleeeeese

  • get real.

You know what, in 50 years or so no-one will give a stuff.

Stop over-dramatising about an everyday situation - people who are married sometimes fancy other people, yes, gulp, gulp - even - have affairs!!!

Radical concept, but you know, in the general scheme of things - there are far worse things that can happen.

So what if the children find out - what is so wrong with being unhappy in a certain situation. Some of you guys are living in the 13th century....

Malificence · 19/11/2009 21:18

Ever wonder why you bother?

Deluded much?

Biobytes · 19/11/2009 21:20

Was married and had child. Not a short marriage either.

Child MUCH better with two happy parents and new additions than with two miserable grumpy individuals.

LeQueen · 19/11/2009 22:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

jools37 · 20/11/2009 07:36

It must be nice to be so perfect and sure of yourself.

I used to be like you, judgemental of people who didn't do the 'right' thing and sure it would never happen to me. Then everything started falling apart and I thought maybe I shouldn't have been so sanctimonious until I had walked a while in the other person's shoes.

My whole world is on shaky foundations now and I have no confidence in any of my opinions or feelings any more.

I really hop nothing happens in your life to make you question your utter infallability.

LeQueen · 20/11/2009 07:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

jools37 · 20/11/2009 09:17

I'm trying my best, i just don't know what to do. I haven't slept with OM because I don't want to do that to DH, I still care about him a lot and I respect him.

I know you will say that even meeting him to talk and thinking about him is cheating on DH, but he has stirred up feelings in me that I have surpressed for a long time, since DH and I are no longer compatible in that area, and I have had to to try and keep hold of my marriage.

I am so terrified of making the wrong decision and hurting all the people I care about that I am incapable of actually doing anything at the moment.

This is not having my cake and eating it, it is purgatory.

gonnabehappy · 20/11/2009 09:19

What hurt me more than anything when my husband had an affair was that the OW knew about the problems in my marriage, my life, and I didn't. I took my husband for granted and did not get things right all the time BUT I was very very upset that the tart knew and I didn't. It took away my choices and chances from my life at a very crucial stage.

We are trying to mend our lives now and it is the emotional betrayal rather than the physical that still makes me cry, rant and rave at times. It is this element that has dented my confidence so very badly.I do know everyone and every relationship is different (and I can really understand why you are so unhappy with your husband OP) but I am very raw and would hate anyone else to go through this.

I would literally beg people on my knees not to put their other halves through this. This betrayal, of not telling me he was unhappy, was so much worse than the sex etc. Someone used the words respect and integrity - surely your husband deserves a little, even if by virtue of being your children's father?

Biobytes · 20/11/2009 09:20

Well, the thing is that we all think that marriages should be like in fairy tales, where both the hero and his love are full of courage and determination to do the right thing but above all, they love each other and with that love they could conquer the world.

It is not that simple, some people are scared, some people stay for the children thinking that not doing so would be despicable, some because they are afraid to end up in poverty, some because they are worried the man they are with will hurt them, or separate them from their children, etc.

If we all were perfect, in perfect circumstances, and surrounded by perfect people. We could talk easily about why things should be one way and not the other. But things are never straightforward.

In my case, I fell in love with other men, but made sure they NEVER noticed it, exh was so busy with his own selfishness that he wouldn't have noticed if I had had an affair, or for the matter, care. I realised I didn't care about him the day someone asked me what I would feel if he had an affair and the only thought that came to my mind was "fine, at least he would give me some space".

Yet, there were years from that to the moment I was ready to leave him as I really didn't have anyone who could support me through that. So... the point of all that babble is that if you find yourself in a more desperate situation than mine was, and you find a man who is providing that love and support that you need, well... it is not the perfect way out, but being through the dispair of an unhappy marriage.... I wouldn't have the heart to judge.

jools37 · 20/11/2009 10:27

I have told DH that I am unhappy with our sex life and that I am no longer attracted to him physically, and see him just as a friend, but he says he doesn't care and we are going on just as before. I guess I need to be more honest and tell him that I fear I may end up having a relationship outside our marriage, but I need to be absolutely sure that I am ready for our marriage to be over before I say that, as I fear there will be no way back for us.

I agree with you biobytes. I would give anything for my marriage to be great and for me not to feel this way. DH and I have been together for 17 years, married for 12 and that is a big thing to give up on. We know each other well, are used to living together, have a nice lifestyle and two lovely children. The thought of upsetting all that and being on my own is terrifying.

However, I guess that the fact I am even contemplating being with another man means my marriage is over. How can I feel that way about someone else if I really love my husband? I know that I have to be sure that I am ready to be alone before I leave, as I am very aware that things may not work out with OM

This is an awful situation, and not one I would ever have chosen to be in. But can I really stay in a completely sexless relationship, even if DH is my best friend and we get along well, when I am only 37?

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 20/11/2009 11:29

Jools - your situation is different to Popzie's and so I just wanted to add my thoughts to your quandary.

The first thing is that old flames are just the worst people to have affairs with. Your feelings for the OM are inextricably linked with nostalgia and a yearning for your younger self, before marriage, mortgages and babies got in the way. Please recognise the delusive qualities of this and do challenge any "he was the one that got away" fantasies you might be having. Or that he might be having, for that matter.

Secondly, allow me to view what you are saying analytically. You are basically telling us that you have lived the greater part of your long relationship with a man who very rarely wanted to have sex - and now doesn't want it at all. That you have been honest about how this makes you feel and that he knows this is a big issue for you. That from what you're telling us, he won't seek help for his zero libido.

I think sometimes we get so immersed in our situations that we think there are only alternatives and not the vast array of options that are really there. You believe that one option might be to leave him and form a new relationship. You see the alternative as living a life without passion and intimacy for another 40 years. In fact there are far more options than this!

It's good that you are starting to see that more honesty with your H is needed here. I suspect he has buried his head in the sand before about this issue and is too complacent to think his choice of celibacy might cause you to look elsewhere.

Jools, if you're being honest with yourself (and us) here in that you do want to stay married to this man, the first thing that needs to happen is that your husband wakes up to what is actually happening here - make him take it seriously. Withholding sex and intimacy is unfair and a deal-breaker in its own right. But so is infidelity and deception.

I understand that your desire has gone for him too, but desire can return, especially if it was once there. Given that you have wanted more sex with him in the past, I'm assuming you once did desire him very much.

Your H needs to know that unless he seeks help (medical or therapy based) about this, he is going to lose you. And he needs to believe that this will happen. Once he realises that his choices in life (and they are his choices) have consequences, he might decide to get help. You then decide whether you'll support him in that journey. The honesty between you then can kick-start your marriage revival - it really is incredible how much more intimate you feel towards a partner when there is honest communication.

On the other hand, he might say he won't get help and then you make another decision. One of these might be an open marriage with his consent, or leaving him and pursuing other relationships.

I'd challenge your view that: "I guess that the fact I am even contemplating being with another man means my marriage is over. How can I feel that way about someone else if I really love my husband?"

Of course it is possible to love your husband and feel this way! Please don't do that female thing of assuming that your marriage must be doomed if you are considering sleeping with another man. From what you're telling us, this boils down to a couple of very specific problems - you don't want sex with each other and there is no desire. Address those issues and don't write off all the other qualities of your marriage.

Living a life without intimacy is a rubbish option for most people and it is for you, which is the most salient point. But affairs and especially deception are a rubbish option too - what ever people might say on here, that affairs are a fact of life etc, this conveniently neglects the issue of deception. As Gonna said in her heartfelt post - it is the deception that hurts the most.

There are other options here Jools - but it needs bravery and courage to take them. Don't box yourself into a corner on this by believing that you've got limited choices.

Where your situation crosses over with Popzie though is that despite what Popzie prefers to believe, these situations never "resolve themselves". Not without enormous hurt once an affair is discovered - or the dull hurt of two people living in a passionless marriage.