Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Is it possible for a marriage to survive without intimacy?

77 replies

Popzie · 17/11/2009 22:22

Background: Been married six years, we get along fine, have a laugh sometimes, still have sex from time to time (quite nice as well) and have two young DC's.

The only trouble is that there is no intimacy between us. Not because we once had it and complacency has set in or anything - we never actually had it in the first place. DH is totally incapable of being intimate - the best he can do is call me by a silly nicname and give me a quick cuddle. No explaining or advising helps at all - he is simply incapable of being at all tender or connecting on a deeper level.

I am an analytical, perceptive and intuitive person and I'm beginning to get worn down by this after all these years of missing out of a good 'heart to heart' with a partner (XP's were all capable of it!). Being this perceptive, intuitive person I did realise this was the case at the start, but also being a very positive person, I thought - wait for it - I could CHANGE him! (I forgot to say I'm obviously a foolish person too!)

Is this it? Do I have to focus on other aspects of our relationship to make up for this lack of intimacy or will it eventually kill it? I feel vulnerable to the fact I might fall for someone else who will fill this void and it worries me.

OP posts:
jools37 · 18/11/2009 22:31

Popzie, reading your posts is like looking into my thoughts. I have been married for 12 years and DH is my best friend, but I feel that is all he is. We were both young and inexperienced sexually when we married, and I naively assumed we would work it out. Actually it has got much worse. DH has no desire for sex at all, and I no longer have any sexual desire for him at all. We live amicably, like housemates rather than husband and wife. We ahve two young children, and have not had sex since my youngest daughter was conceived, she has just turned two.

Prior to my marriage, I had a relationship with another man whom I loved very much, but it never developed due certain circumstances. He has now come back into my life, unmarried and wanting a relationship with me. I realise a part of me has never got over him and I want him very much but I am afraid of what it will do to DH and my children if I leave. I am very unhappy and don't know what to do. I am glad to know I am not alone, even if other people on this board judge me. It must be great to be perfect and sure in your life. Most people are confused and flawed and make mistakes. I just wish I knew what to do.

purpleduck · 18/11/2009 22:43

for heavens sake leQueen...I guess everyone should be as perfect....

People do the best they can with the information they have at the time - whether that information be about theyr partner, or about themselves.

AnyFucker · 18/11/2009 23:02

look, nobody is saying she should stay within her marriage if she is not happy

I would say, let him go if it hasn't turned out how you expected it to

Have a go with some other bloke, why not

it's a free country, you will not get stoned in the street (only on MN)

but don't fuck people around

the OP is humiliating her DH, and diminishing him in her eyes (and his own, when he finds out, which he will eventually)

however, make sure your expectations are not impossible to achieve

in this case, the OP sounds verrrry high-maintenance to me

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 18/11/2009 23:20

Popzie - I have nothing much to add to what I said earlier, but I hope my posts have shown I am not judging you, or that I have no sympathy for your situation. This post is however for VCAU and Spaceman.

Spaceman, of course my advice would have been different (in part)if the true story had been originally posted. The advice about bringing the lack of intimacy to the table (in a different way) still stands however. Understandably, if Popzie had mentioned the OM in her original post, I wouldn't have advised her to say "I'll never be unfaithful to you.." as that would have been absurd. And I agree with the light analogy downthread - the OM clouds the picture enormously - it is virtually impossible to judge our partner's qualities objectively when we have developed an emotional connection with someone else. It follows therefore that the advice we give will always be different if another lover is in the mix - this is not judging, but it is pertinent to the story.

VCAU - I have no idea where you get your evidence that "most relationship advisers counsel against" being honest about past (or current)indiscretions. I wouldn't dream of telling posters that my belief - that honesty is best, was based on anything other than my experience with my own 25-year relationship, the experiences of my friends - and my husband's eminent psychotherapist. I could post links all day long here from counsellors and relationship authors that echo my view, but I prefer to talk about personal experience. Which is that keeping secrets damages intimacy in relationships.

As for telling all being "self-indulgent" - now this I find truly absurd. What could be more self-indulgent than deluding someone that you have always been faithful and always intend to be? Or not having the courage to lose the financial contribution of your spouse and the status of being married and instead taking those things from a trusting partner while you continue to pursue "other arrangements"?

I understand all too well why people have overlaps in relationships - and why they fear telling their spouses that they have been unfaithful. But kidding oneself that the only reason for keeping the secret is so as not to unnecessarily hurt the unknowing spouse is one of the biggest delusions of all. The main reason people don't tell their spouse is because they fear the rug will be pulled out from under them - often erroneously I think - but I understand why people believe that.

And the reasons that so many relationships overlap is because people will often "make do" until someone better comes along, either for emotional reasons or financial; sometimes both. All of this is entirely understandable - and while this is not an honest, transparent way of behaving, I can very much understand why this happens.

To pretend that keeping secrets is in the name of some noble cause "not to hurt" is frankly delusional IMO. While that might be a part of the reason, it is certainly not the whole story.

Popzie - not much of this relates to you, I'm afraid. It sounds as though you are willing to financially support yourself and are willing to live on your own - and no-one should be forced to live with a mistake they made in their twenties. In your case, I suspect this is a classic "exit affair" and if that's the case, by the sounds of it you would prefer to live honestly without deceit and lies. I hope that's the case - deceiving someone is always wrong I think, because it denies them their choices in life.

navyeyelasH · 18/11/2009 23:25

this thread is freaking me out. Popzie, do you live in south ales and is your career something to do with children??

poshsinglemum · 19/11/2009 06:40

I think that some people have been unecessarily harsh on this thread. Mabe the op did know what he was like before marriage but she obviously loved him enough to hope that he would change. We all make mistakes especially when it comes to love. No point being judgemental about her choices-what is done is done.
OP- I doubt that there is a future with this man. You deserve better.
The op thinks that she will be drawn to someone else if things don't change which is perfectly reasonable imo.

poshsinglemum · 19/11/2009 06:42

Le Queen- it's good that you take marriage so seriously but not everyone is happy once they get married and why should they be a prisoner in such circumstances?

veryconfusedandupset · 19/11/2009 07:25

Popzie - Since I last posted we have heard
about you not looking at your wedding photos and feeling unhappy from very early on - suspect you are already aware this is a very bad sign for a marriage and it indicates t o me it is fated - never really got off the ground really.

The fact that you are not totally besotted with OM and are keeping a very level head shows you are being more objective than most people in this situation, if he is single I doubt that he will continue a relationship with a married woman and all the inherent difficulties that come with that indefinitely - even if you stay together for now it probably is a time limited one to two year thing at the most.

Although I disagree vehemently with WWIFN on the disclosure issue ( I'll see your eminent psychotherapist and raise a former RELATE qualified counsellor and psychologist, plus well known "counsellor to the stars" on this one - get real we can all find an expert to back us up) I agree that if we want to go down the route of putting relationships into boxes your EMA is possibly a sign that the marriage is over, unless you feel suffieciently in control to be able to say 100% that the experience is good for you, not emotionaly difficult and that if and when it ends you can forsee painlessly replacing it with another - and you would have to be one hell of a woman to do that!

I'm putting my tin hat on here but there are dating agencies for married people, and you only have to look at the forums to see that there are some people - mostly past the first flush of youth - in relationships that do not satisfy themselves 100% who manage well in this scenario, sometimes with the consent of their spouses. They don't post about sex etc. they post about life, books, pets and seem very pleasant and normal ( I considered this route, but didn't feel I was emotionally resilient enough for it) They are not evil, nasty people.

Lastly, I was very perplexed by comments about wanting the "status" of marriage and financial support - these days there is no status attached to marriage, those who have cohabited for years without a "piece of paper", the government, the courts and the probation service ( who won't have the words husband and wife used in reports but insist on "partner") all make it abundantly clear that married people are nothing special. And if there are any women out there who really see husband as a means of reliable financial support in these uncertain times they are sadly deluded.

LeQueen · 19/11/2009 07:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LeQueen · 19/11/2009 07:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

roxi09 · 19/11/2009 09:02

There are downfalls that he is single, it sounds silly but have a listen to Ronan Keating's new single Stay...that's how he will end up feeling.
To begin with an affair with a married woman seems like an ideal situation to a single man, all the benefits of a girlfriend without the ties.
However, he will probably start to want more of you, it will absolutely tear him apart that he can't wake up with you in the morning and hold you all night long.
Not being able to do normal things like sit watching TV cuddled up in the evenings, go out together, things he would do in a normal relationship, will really start to get to him.
And he will suffer terribly with guilt, so much so that he will most likely decide enough is enough.
It's not an easy road...I've not had an affair with a MM but I would imagine if you are both in the same situation it would probably be easier.
It's just a barrel load of hurt for all concerned, and you will be the one hurting most.

I just really wish I had been a member of mumsnet before I got involved, and people had told me how it would end up. I was caught up in the feelings and being wanted and appreciated and couldn't see at the time how this affair would turn my world on it's head.

Popzie · 19/11/2009 10:19

I can understand the vilification, but to come down so hard on (what was) a young woman who went into marriage with hope above all else is to me way off track.

I put doubts down to the jitters - cold feet. I never understood why I don't pour over my photos like other newly weds do, I'm just not that type of person to 'gush' and there just feels a tinge of sadness there that I can't put my finger on.

Jools; I think we are completely in the same boat. You say 'amicable'. It's just what me and DH are.

We are borderline; the trouble is which side of borderline are we? A little bit this way and we can pass for a 'normal' marriage; a little bit the other way and we aren't quite cutting the mustard. This is how tight the goalposts are when you are in our situation.

I could have gone on for years not questioning it with my head in the sand, and even claim to be content. Now, I am having to question everything because of the OM.

Is this about my marriage, or is it about the affair? I actually don't know where the focus should lie.

With regards to the OM; he is desperate for a family and some security, though he doesn't expect it from me. His feelings will not change for me, I know that, and I also know that I can't be replaced in his eyes. I know I'm going to get slated for my confidence for that last statement, there is of course and outside chance that someone incredible will walk into his life and he'll be gone, but it's unlikely. I can't explain how I know that - I just do.

OP posts:
jools37 · 19/11/2009 10:45

Popzie, I feel exactly the same as you. The easiest thing in the world would be for me to let things ride as they are, who really wants the misery of going through a divorce, especially where children are involved? But I am only 37 and part of me is rebelling against the thought that I have to settle for this passionless existence for the rest of my life, because of decisions I made in my early twenties. As you say, those decisions were made with hope and optimism, which has turned out to be misplaced, but they were certainly not made lightly.

I think some of the posters are being extremely unfair to say that you are treating your vows, and DH's feelings with contempt. If that were true, why would you be agonising over the situation like this? I completely understand the agonies you are suffering, as I am there too.

I agree with some of the posts which point out how hard it is to make an informed decision about your current relationship when another potential partner is on the horizon, and making you feel all the excitement and passion you crave. I am a fairly sensible person, and I can be objective enough to see that no relationship is going to remain like that forever. But what am I supposed to do? Do I tell him that he has come into my life at the wrong time and I need him to walk away so that I can be clearer about my relationship with DH. I am not sure I am strong enough.

Anyone who thinks that any woman selfishly chooses to feel this way as some kind of indulgence is crazy, I feel like I am in hell and I don't know how to resolve the situation.

Popzie · 19/11/2009 10:58

Jools; I am the same age as you.

My friend got divorced not long ago because her DH didn't want sex with her anymore. She told everone boldy: 'I can't live in a sexless marriage' and nobody batted an eyelid. A child was also involved. She was so certain of her decision and it was totally accepted as being the right thing to do.

Our marriage isn't completely void of sex, but he never makes the first move and we have gone for months and months with him sleeping in a different room. I suppose we have sex about once a month.

OP posts:
Pennytree · 19/11/2009 11:02

I am in the same boat.......7 years
A sexless marriage (I started a thread)

Then found OM
and the feelings swing from happy to sad
Happy when we speak
sad as feel selfish
sacriface my feelings for H and dcs
Or stand up and say NO thsi is not for me

OM made me realise what was missing

Pennytree · 19/11/2009 11:09

I am 37 as well

I did`nt take my vows lightly
BUT I have tried everything i can to make this marriage to work but it was banging my head against a brick wall
So I crossed the line then H decided to return to the marriage and after all these years
My feelings are screwed up
Damned what ever I do

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 19/11/2009 11:20

Popzie - what are you going to do about this though? Are you going to talk to your H again about the intimacy issues, or has it got to the point that actually, you don't want intimacy from him any more? I'm struggling to see where you're at, you see. I do see this is about your marriage, but unless you are brilliant at compartmentalising, the affair and your feelings for the OM are relevant because it is nigh on impossible to view your marriage objectively when you're having an affair. The two become inextricably linked. A counsellor might well help you to separate the issues to some extent - have you considered that?

VCAU - you missed the point I'm afraid. I've got no intention of "raising you" a bunch of experts. I prefer to speak from personal experience and it was you who attempted to back up your "keep secrets" philosophy with the sweeping statement that "most relationship advisers" agree with you.

I also understand that in your situation VCAU, it might be comforting to tell yourself that the only reason you are keeping your secrets is not to hurt - but I think you are being disingenuous.

The "status" I referred to has nothing whatsoever to do with the legalities. It has everything to do with how people like to be perceived by the outside world; their communities, their extended families, their friends, colleagues and crucially, inside their own nuclear family.

And I'm afraid there appear to be lots of women on these boards who do take the finances into consideration. Only the other day, we had a poster who admitted that if the OM won the lottery, she would leave her H immediately. While her views might be abhorrent to those of us who have always stood on our own two feet financially, at least she was honest. Because women generally get custody and primary care of the children when a marriage ends, I do think that a deterrent for some women to end a marriage ethically and live alone is financial.

Ultimately, I have yet to see how deceiving someone is defensible.

Malificence · 19/11/2009 11:23

It's really very simple - if you (or anyone else for that matter) is not happy in a relationship, the decent thing to do is be honest, try and work things out with your partner and if/when that fails - you leave, with your head held high in the knowledge that you've done all you possibly can.

Nobody should be stuck in an unhappy and unfulfilling marriage, life is too short but I imagine that jumping in head first with a new relationship creates more problems than it solves.

Why can't people be honest with themselves, let alone their partner?

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 19/11/2009 11:42

Can I throw another scenario into the pot here?

I absolutely understand the terrible dilemmas posters on here are facing and for some of you, it will end with the OM because one or both of you cannot live with the guilt and the upheaval of following your hearts. You then decide to re-commit to your marriages, which are by now greatly reduced from what they once were, because you have had a taste of what life could be like. You don't tell your partner about any of this and live a deadened, half-life. You can't recapture your sexual feelings for your partner, partly because you now see him as a victim.

Then, after a time, when you have lost the OM for good and he has moved on and possibly married, you find out that in fact your partner was having an affair himself. I'm afraid given what people are saying about their marriages on here, this seems pretty likely to me. How happy do you think your husbands are in these marriages? Does it cross your mind that they might be looking elsewhere too, for someone who desires them passionately? Men and women are no different in this respect, we all have needs.

How bad will you feel that, because you weren't honest yourself now, you have lost that chance of happiness?

Popzie · 19/11/2009 11:55

When so many are involved it is very difficult. Things change by the minute.

Yesterday I was all screwed up confused about the intimacy thing, now I am looking back at some of the dreadful things my DH has done in the last years and I'm thinking I'm mad for still being here.

I think I've been worn down so I don't even expect a decent relationship now. What used to upset me dreadfully is just part of the course today - part of the routine.

My DH whenever we go out to a social occassion ends up being a complete liability. We're the laughing stock of our social group because he ends up loosing control and letting the side down.

I cannot count on him to get me home safely; not throw up on the sofa, piss in the bed, get abusive. He has a drink problem (he can't say no and can't take it)and I've begged him to stop but he won't. He says he 'just can't help it.'

We've had couselling four years ago because he was emotionally abusing me for months (not when drunk) to the point where I could hardly open my mouth without him loosing his temper. I was a new mum and a new wife and I have never felt so low. Making that call to Relate was such a bad time for me I remember how sick I felt and what a failure.

He is better now I have to say except for the odd set-back, the last one being when I was PG with DS (2 years ago), but after that he knows he's on his last chance.

It's just now I don't even think about it because I'm so used to it all and know better how to deal with it. I take the shot glass away from him at the party, I don't go near him afer the parties over if I can help it, I put a sheet down in the bed and worry all night that he will soak the matress. Maybe that's just being a good wife? After all, it's not such a big deal because we don't go out so much anymore, but Christmas is coming so you never know what we're for with all those parties...

So you see I don't think I'm the selfish one that I'm making myself out to be. If anything trying to make everything 'alright' has been my downfall. If you don't look after a good wife then you can bet your bottom dollar that someone will try and come in and look after her for you. And that's just what is happening.

OM is privvy to all this behaviour and I think he almost wants to 'save me' from it. It must be dreadful to see someone you love in a marriage like that. Maybe he thinkgs 'fuck him he doesn't deserve her'. Maybe he's right.

OP posts:
Popzie · 19/11/2009 12:03

WWIFN; I have thought of that scenario too. I almost decided yesterday to ask him straight out about his feelings for me as I thought there is a possibility I may get a shock of my very own.

There is a huge posibility that he may not have been faithful - hell the OM in my situation will know more than me about that.

Maybe that's why OM feels he can make a play for me. I need to know more, which is why I cannot show my hand at this point of time. I have to be careful - I need to ensure the DCs and me (for my sake and thir sake) are hurt at little as possible. I want to know what I'm dealing with on both sides.

So many unanswered questions...

OP posts:
Malificence · 19/11/2009 12:10

Just get on and leave him then.

At the moment it just looks like you're trying to drum up sympathy - "oh poor me, look what I've had to put up with".
If it's that bad, go and shack up with the OM, it can't be any worse.

Popzie · 19/11/2009 12:20

FFS!

I'm not looking for sympathy. I'm trying to put things in order and present the facts as they are. I'm being called selfish, so offer up some more background information that I'd steered away from and this is what I get!

What I've said here has to count for something. It helps explain why I'm looking for an exit strategy, also why OM is disregarding his mate/thinks he's in with a chance.

You can't win on here. It's just pointless when people just want to attack all the time, whatever you say. I don't want you all to tell me to leave him. However, I would like know what you would do in my situation. And, by the way, you could find yourself in this position. No one is immune. My comment on affairs was always 'it's easy to stay faithul, just don't get yourself in the position where you're a target'. Despite my best efforts, it caught up with me.

And for the record I do NOT want to shack up with OM.

OP posts:
HorribleMuddle · 19/11/2009 12:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Malificence · 19/11/2009 12:35

You aren't going to get any real answers from a group of random people on MN who don't know the whole story - if nothing else you are obviously very confused, hell, so are we now!

You are driving yourself mad with all these "what if" scenarios - why is there suddenly a huge possibility that your husband has been unfaithful?
If this OM/husband's friend is hinting at infidelity on hubby's part, he could just be messing with your head, trying to push you into sleeping with him? He's certainly no friend of your husband by the way.

My last piece of advice is to have things out with your husband, you will either work things out or you won't - you know you'll end up in the arms of this OM at Xmas if your husband "embarasses" you again.
He sounds like a hopeless case if he's as you say he is - you can't fix him - he doesn't want to be fixed.
It's entirely up to you how much more time you spend metaphorically banging you head against the brick wall that is your marriage.