Does anyone remember my threads from early in the year? Well...

[YouKnowNothingoftheKABOOM]

I could do with a bit of advice.

Again.

The short version goes like this:-

DH depressed for 2 years. Became emotionally abusive last year while I was pregnant with dc3. Everything was my fault he would scream at me, headbutt walls next to me, blame me for ruining his life. And so on and on.

I finally had enough and with an awful lot of support from MN asked him to leave - for the sake of my mental health and the children.

He changed his medication, changed therapist and moved back in just before dc3 was born. I told him that if he shouted or scared me once more he was gone. And he never has.

Over the Summer things were shaky and I spent a lot of time away with the children. DH started CBT which had dramatic, positive results. When September came and I was home again he was like a different man.

It was like my old DH had come home and we were a team again. Things were really good. We started dating when we could get a babysitter, and he started doing nice little things for me, and actually thinking about what I want instead of just his needs.

So here is the last bit. In the last couple of weeks he has been slipping again. I've caught him out in some small and pointless lies, he seems weighed down and very low. He admits that he is struggling.

And I can't go through the last year again. It was unbearable. I can't begin to describe how I felt, all the pressure of keeping things normal - I thought my head would pop.

He knows that I will leave him if he steps over the line. I know that he needs my help. He wants to talk about things - which is great and productive and necessary. But I don't want to. The suggestion that he is slipping makes me feel so angry with him.

How dare he let himself go back to that place after everything I did for him and everything he did to me?!

But that's not helpful.

So here is the question:-

How can I help him when his illness makes me feel so hurt?

How can I help him when I am aware that he used my help in the past as a rod to beat me?

How can I listen to him when I feel so angry about having to do this again?

Ok, that was more than one question, but you see where I'm going - the main one really is how can I help him and protect me?

I don't want to be flamed for this. I'd have put this in AIBU if I did.

I don't want judgement for staying with this man either. I believe this could work (and even if I'm wrong I still have to try).

I read through the previous threads I started and I don't recognise him or me in them anymore.

Could someone wave a magic wand please and just make this all better?

TIA

mollybob, thank you, I will have a look at that site. Good to know there is hope

Nifty, anytime you want to chat then let me know.

Can I just ask who told you that the head doc said it wasn't a good idea for him to move out? Because if it was your H then I might question the truth in it. I find it hard to believe any psych or counsellor would influence this decision. If he were to move out that doesn't mean he has no support, it just means that he has to chase it.

If I wasn't sure that I wanted to be in this marriage (if it is an equal relationship) then I would not be here. It sounds like you are waiting for permission to leave, and that him trying makes you feel bad for considering going now. But the point is that he should get well for him, not to keep you. Relationships fail for any number of reasons, sometimes just because you "fall out of love", no abuse, no hurt, nothing, just quietly slip away never to return.

There's a chance that if he goes, sorts himself out and remains the man you want him to be, that then he could win you back.

I spent a lot of time in the last year wishing he would hit me. Because then I would have a reason. No one would expect me to stay with a violent man. But EA is so invisible, so private, that it's hard for other people to see.

Since Saturday, DH has cooked me a nice meal, got up with the dcs, gone for an 8 mile run, listened to me and not turned the conversation to him, left me notes around the house saying thank you, cleaned the living room and put the dcs in bed while I had a long bath (which I got out of to find new sheets on the bed). He has also set aside some time this evening to discuss the past year and how he can help reassure me that it is over.

IT doesn't all come naturally to him yet. He has to concentrate to listen and not turn it in on himself, but he can do it.

I've ordered a SAD box too. To see if that will make a difference.

YouKnow,

I'm glad to read your DH is making an effort.

If he is still receiving talk therapy, perhaps you could ask him to discuss with his therapist ways to help to stop him taking things out on you? I.e., making it a focus of his therapy for a while. He doesn't have to report to you about it or anything, just agree to work on it as a priority.

Re-calibrating (for lack of a better word) relationships is one of the hardest things to do but it can be done, by altering how you react and learning over time to stop yourself falling into old behaviours. It's also just about the most rewarding thing you can do.

Glad he went running by the way. Exercise is as effective as ADs for many people and if he could fit in exercise every day it could have real results keeping him on a more even keel.

Youknow great news that you had a good weekend with your Dh .
Sounds like he is turning things around
its brilliant news
really pleased for you both
Its the way it should be

The head doc told us both when we went
I went with H (on his 4 session in)

She was asking me questions and I answered her truthfully that "enough was enough" and I have no respect for a man that can behave like this for 7 years etc etc

She said I sounded angry and resentful (no shit) and yes I agreed I AM

I said I wanted him to move out so I could see things more calmly and maybe my anger would subside .She said no that was not a good idea at the moment

She said maybe we could seek marriage councilling and that I need to address my feelings of anger so "we" could move forward
She also said that H would finish therapy a changed man BUT it would take a long time

So that would be 3 therapists!!!!
NO I don`t think so

I also know what you mean when you say about Dh "hitting" you
Felt/Feel the same or that he would come home saying he had played away .
Then I could go and people would see it for what it is and understand

Except its a hidden illness that no one can see unless you live with it or are the closet around it

I know what my insecurites are
AND thanks to h I have a ton more

Yes I suppose I am asking for permission to leave
My head is all over the place trying to do the right thing for everybody H,Dcs,parents etc etc

I don`t know if I love or pity H ????
He is trying so hard
he looks like the man I know but is acting so lovely .And I feel so guilty for feeling like this

And why ...... head doc says severe depression
why wait 7 years ?
why wait till there is nothing left?

Oh my God! I can't believe she would say that to you! MY DH's previous counsellor was under the impression he was a lovely man who was being held back by my "unrealistic expectations" Of course, she only had his word to go on, and he admits he was manipulating her to make him feel better (so he could be horrible to me and then get a pat on the back so he didn't have to deal with the guilt)

I've tried marriage counselling - I strongly recommend you don't go near it with him while he's ill. It was hell.

No counsellor has any right to ask you to stay. He is his own responsibility and if he needs more help and can't cope then he should seek further treatment!

Please leave. I give you permission.

I left, and I think things might work now, but only because I left IYSWIM.

You are not happy. Why should you stay unhappy just to please someone else?

He can prove his love for you by working things through and winning you back.

Why wait? Because he didn't have to do anything before, because you weren't threatening to leave.

He's doing this now to keep you.

It feels to me like you are being emotionally blackmailed by him and his therapist, "Don't leave or he'll hurt himself/kill himself"

You can't live like that.

Do you have your own counsellor? I had one not long ago and it helped put everything into perspective. I'd forgotten that I had a right to feelings too.

The counsellor at the GP's asked me how I would feel if then-H were to admit he had mental problems, get treated, and come out all cured. I said I would be glad about it because he would be a happier person, and would stand a chance of making someone else a better partner; but not me, it was definitely too late for that. Not, mind you, that he ever would admit to it - that was a major part of the problem.

Though for you, Niftyblue, it may be that you are unable to feel love towards him at the moment because you're emotionally whacked out, but that it could come back given time, if it could be proved he had undergone a real, lasting change. WRT staying with him, giving it some space while he works it through, or giving up in exhaustion, I wouldn't know what to advise and it sounds as if the "experts" know even less!

nifty do NOT go to marraige counselling witht hsi man but please do see your own counsellor.

i am also aghast at his head doctor telling YOU what to do....as tho it might save or not save him.

you need to do what is right for you. not what is right for him. you ahve put up with enough.

you have put up with 7 years of sh%t... he can try to win you back from afar if he wants to/can.

but YOu need a break.

you dont trust him...and why should you?

there are no guaratnees he will change into what you want him to eb.

he will cahnge with therapy yes - but he might also change into soemone who relaises that it isnt you he wants. it is nonsense to suggest you shoudl wait aroudn for him to be "cured"

therapy does help people, doe /can change the way they think.

but it doesnt mean he will be the person you want.

get out now,. leave him to sort himself out.

if at a distance he works it through and you decide after 12 months yes it can work, then fine. but at least it is a decision made on truth and honesty.

dont stay in it for him, waiting for him...

you just dont sound like you happy with the situation. and it is all about him and his needs.

live a part.
see each other regularly if you want. but you set the rules and your boundaries.

do not be fooled....

and see your own therapist to work out your feelings on this.

his therapist cannot be dictating to you what to do.

yes you have a right to your own feelings too and to amke your decisions on waht si right for you.

Go

I'm all for making marriages work but...

I'm not sure whos permission you want but if you need someone to say its ok to go then I'm saying it.

I'm going to say it again, because it took me a long time to accept it:-

• His illness is not your responsibility

• His illness is not your fault

• His cure is not your responsibility

• You cannot cure him

• You are suffering from his illness as much as he is

And so here is the crappy bit. The choice. The only choice you have left. You cannot make him better, you cannot make him treat you well, you shouldn't trust him until he proves himself trustworthy. Your choice is to stay or to go. There is no right answer. There is just what you feel.

When I left, the first week, it was like I could breath again. I hadn't realised the weight I had been carrying around every minute of every day. I started laughing again. I think I even skipped around the house a bit Not because I was happy that he was gone, but because I could feel what I was feeling without having to hide it or squash it or check it before I let it out.

The week before I had all the symptoms of major clinical depression (diagnosed by therapist), the week after? I was normal.

And we are now trying again. But I will not take on the burden that I carried before. I will not take the blame. I will defend my right to feel.

Going doesn't mean giving up on anything. Going just means taking the time for you to make sure you are ok.

I strongly recommend you get your own counsellor if you don't have one. Because you need someone looking out for your feelings, and you are still putting his first.

How are you?
youknow

The question about the remaining distance between him and you is huge. I personally made the decision that I couldn't go on as the goalposts had shifted so much over time, and I felt there's as much point in one person doing all the work in a relationship as there is in one hand clapping.

He has to take responsibility for his own mental health. You are not his parent, doctor or counsellor. If he shuts you out and abuses you, while continuing to function fine at work and elsewhere, your feelings of alienation will continue to grow. The ball is in his court.

MAthanxiety it is down to him. I think he accepts that. Since last weekend he has been to the GP and upped his medication. Which is a good sign.

Nifty I'm ok. Things are still up and down. We had a brilliant few days at the end of last week, and then on Saturday he collapsed into himself again. I was quite firm about him having to pull himself out of it. I told him that I love him but the DCs were home and needed my care and attention more than he needed me to be an audience to his self-pity.

He pulled himself together yesterday, but I am so tired of the constant yo-yoing back and forth. I feel quite drained.

Also managed to fall down the stairs yesterday and hurt my back. Nothing major (but I'm sore and I want to complain about it! )

How are you Nifty? Have you come to any decisions?

Jeez what rollarcoaster youknow
Good for you telling him "self pity" and that you stood upto him and he started to pull himself together

Was woundering how you were doing this weekend

Complain away about your back

Nothing much happening here
We are in separate rooms at night which I like
decided to keep my head down till after Christmas .
I am to tired to think about it
He asked me for a hug last night i said No but felt shit for saying it
It just would feel clumsly and he would read something into it
He wants to meet up for lunch this week as the kds are at school AGAIN feel like saying NO
Like I said he is making an effort but I am so all over the place ...........
I can`t eveb decide what to do for dinner never mind our relationship

Still angry that its got to this
So for me I will try and bury it till after christmas and then see how i feel

Hope your back gets better

You sound like me this time last year. Just one more week, one more month, one more holiday. IT's so hard.

I know the feeling of not wanting to lead him on with affection too

You can say NO if you want. I really do recommend you getting your own therapist. Going to his sessions is entirely for him - his counsellor is on his side, not yours - and it's just MORE giving by you.

We were in separate rooms until 2 months ago (for about 8 months, except the bits he was moved out for when he was in a separate house), it was such a relief to have my time in bed just to me. It made it my space. We still refer to it as my bed (not our), which means that if I need it to be just mine he is willing to sleep in the spare room (which he did Saturday night).

I hate to sleep alone, so the fact that that became preferable shows how stressful being around him was.

Something did happen on Saturday that really upset me, and I don't want everyone to jump on it as a reason to leave him. But I want this to be a place I can be honest.

He was crying in front of the DCs (really quite hysterically) I saw that they were scared and went to shepherd them away and comfort them, but he grabbed my arm and said "Don't walk away from me" (not in an angry way, but self-pityingly). I whipped my arm away and snapped "Let go".

He just kept crying while I took the DCs away.

Afterwards, when he had calmed down and the DCs were in bed, I told him that he had no right to ever restrain me or lay a hand on me. He apologised sincerely.

It wasn't done to hurt or with any malice, it was simply that he did not want me to leave and was so overwhelmed by his own needs that he didn't consider I have a right to.

This is not ok. I know it's not ok. He knows it's not ok.

I am saddened by it, and worry that it is an escalation.

You dont have to explain that it wasnt done in malice that he did it in self pity

You were strong enough to tell him to get off and then get the kids away from seeing him in that state and later telling him how wrong he was
BUT HE IS NOT TO DO IT AGAIN in way shape or form

I hate sleeping on my own and in the dark with the door closed
but that is what I have been doing
in away its my escape....shutting out the issues

Anyway .........
It will be another couple of weeks till I go with him again to the head doc (IF I GO)
he goes weekly

Keep posting

What I am trying to say is
I know he didnt get hold of you to hurt you BUT it doesnt make it right
Don`t let him try it again

I won't. At least, I really hope I won't. I know at the moment I am strong enough. But I thought that this time last year, and it just got worse and worse and worse until I was the one having the breakdown, and he was the one sat there mocking me for being weak

It's just the first time (at least the first time I can remember) he has ever laid a hand on me in any way. It's not right.

I'm wondering if he'd be better off without his therapist, before he went he was doing really well, using his CBT book a lot, and really improving. Since he started CBT with a therapist, he barely bothers with his book, rarely does his "homework" and has slipped. I wonder if he has a mentality whereby his therapist can carry him IYSWIM so she does the work for him.

Thanks for understanding Nifty, is your H still trying to be the perfect man?

Could he have a couple of weeks away from his therapist?
To see if it did make any difference
I have no idea what to suggest

H is being the perfect gent
So he has depression and was a wanker for 7 years cosof depression still has a depression but being very loving and nice

don`t understand it at all

Not fair, is it? Dh is depressed but can now be thoughtful and loving, whereas previously he could only be selfish and cruel. There's no logic to it. I even found myself making a timeline of incidents, on Saturady to see if I could see any pattern of behaviour, but there wasn't one. Other than a constant need to dramatise everything every once in a while, it all seems random.

If it made sense, if there was a pattern, if there was a definite end to it all, then things would be so much easier.

Just spoken to DH and he admits that since he started therapy he has been thinking along the lines of, "I won't bother working through that, it'll be fixed in therapy"

Very upset as this is exactly what he promised me he wouldn't do when he restarted seeing a therapist.

So all the work he was doing, the progress he made, was thrown away by laziness and his attitude of "someone else can do it for me"

I'm not angry, just so disappointed. I know it's hard. But he was doing it (finally) and he just stopped.

yes your dh has stopped taking on the responsibiliy to fix himself
And yes that is being lazy
letting someone else do it for him

H is the same

BUT at least your Dh admits that, knows that and acknowldeges it
from what you have said he would`nt have done a while back ......so that in is a improvement........jut not the one you wanted to hear

"He was crying in front of the DCs (really >quite hysterically) I saw that they were >scared and went to shepherd them away and >comfort them, but he grabbed my arm and >said "Don't walk away from me" (not in an >angry way, but self-pityingly). I whipped >my arm away and snapped "Let go"."

you need to spell it out to him - if you begin crying in front of the DCs i will take them out of the room.

tell him: you have two options when you feel like crying:

one - you take yourself away to some place where it wont upset the DCs

two - you dont take yourself away you can be sure I will move myself and them.

(have plans on where you could go? in the car some place? tio visit friend?

he has to acknowledge the impact he is having on the DCs and take steps.

it is not THEIR depression it is his.

he has no right to impose it on the DCS.

you can choose to stay with him thru this and support him but always always think of the DCS. put them first. you can work to mitigate the impact on them.

read the chapter in Anne Sheffield's book "depression fallout" on the impact on children of depression in a parent. the long term impact of growing up with this negative behaviour.

it says how they can grow up if they dont get shown love and care attention from happy positive people.

you need to set your own clear boundaries and have escape plans for you and kids when he is demanding and needy.

you did the right thing in walking away. you will need to do this time and time again til he gets it.

he can behave to himself how he likes; if you chose to sit and support him fine - but never in front of the DCs.

what is the worst he can do to himself? harm himself? his choice at the end of the day...

he was wrong in grabbing you - reminds me so much of my exP.

i had to walk away with dcs at times, really not knowing if he would harm himself radically...but it reached a point where the dcs came first.

a person will harm themselves anyway if they want to. it is within their control - not yours.

you are in control of what your children will witness.

At least he does see it, that is true. I think I'm going to have a big talk with him about therapy tonight. Hopefully we can find a solution.

Sorry your H is the same. Wish we could bang their stupid heads together.

You deserve a medal for doing all this for 7 years. You must be an incredibly strong person

c'estlavie, all good advice. I just bought the Anne Sheffield book, the chapter on DCs was invaluable. I was glad that I had already implemented a lot of the things in it. I will always take them away. I will always put them first.

I will.

Argh.

Feeling suddenly low for no reason.

Had a good talk with dh.

Can I just cry for a bit now?

Just seen your post youknow
you o.k??????????????????????

what did your dh say?