Does anyone remember my threads from early in the year? Well...

[YouKnowNothingoftheKABOOM]

I could do with a bit of advice.

Again.

The short version goes like this:-

DH depressed for 2 years. Became emotionally abusive last year while I was pregnant with dc3. Everything was my fault he would scream at me, headbutt walls next to me, blame me for ruining his life. And so on and on.

I finally had enough and with an awful lot of support from MN asked him to leave - for the sake of my mental health and the children.

He changed his medication, changed therapist and moved back in just before dc3 was born. I told him that if he shouted or scared me once more he was gone. And he never has.

Over the Summer things were shaky and I spent a lot of time away with the children. DH started CBT which had dramatic, positive results. When September came and I was home again he was like a different man.

It was like my old DH had come home and we were a team again. Things were really good. We started dating when we could get a babysitter, and he started doing nice little things for me, and actually thinking about what I want instead of just his needs.

So here is the last bit. In the last couple of weeks he has been slipping again. I've caught him out in some small and pointless lies, he seems weighed down and very low. He admits that he is struggling.

And I can't go through the last year again. It was unbearable. I can't begin to describe how I felt, all the pressure of keeping things normal - I thought my head would pop.

He knows that I will leave him if he steps over the line. I know that he needs my help. He wants to talk about things - which is great and productive and necessary. But I don't want to. The suggestion that he is slipping makes me feel so angry with him.

How dare he let himself go back to that place after everything I did for him and everything he did to me?!

But that's not helpful.

So here is the question:-

How can I help him when his illness makes me feel so hurt?

How can I help him when I am aware that he used my help in the past as a rod to beat me?

How can I listen to him when I feel so angry about having to do this again?

Ok, that was more than one question, but you see where I'm going - the main one really is how can I help him and protect me?

I don't want to be flamed for this. I'd have put this in AIBU if I did.

I don't want judgement for staying with this man either. I believe this could work (and even if I'm wrong I still have to try).

I read through the previous threads I started and I don't recognise him or me in them anymore.

Could someone wave a magic wand please and just make this all better?

TIA

posie, I have been having some respite of late, and it is great. At the height of his illness he began to take things out on the dcs (which was when I asked him to move out and sort himself out). He's such a hands-on dad, and seeing the dcs scared of him was heart breaking. He has now regained their trust and they are completely happy with him again. Although I do catch the oldest one listening very carefully if DH is cross about something (normal). But so far he always looks relieved afterwards. I hate that they've had to go through all of this. But they are happy again now.

I do find it hard sometimes to see him as just ill (which is unfair of me). I will try harder to separate the illness (his sadness and lack of energy) from his behaviour- because they are two different things.

Depression does`nt just affect the person that has it.It affects everyone around them
You have to live with it as well and take it and thats hard when you are the one thats getting shut out or shouted out 24/7

You wounder how much you take yourself when you are dealing with everything else (day to day) and trying to support and cope your partner with the insecurites that hsi depression has put on you

it was explained to me by the doc that as "he he feels insecure and small he tries to make you feel the same"
Which is sooooooooooo true

How much can you take ?
You try and support them but who is supporting you ?

doh respite!

I know that when I am bad to the people closest to me the mechanism is often this:

"I am an awful utter failure;therefore I can't possibly be associated with anyone who isn't also an awful utter failure. The other person must be useless if they are in any way to do with me. The extent of my failure is so enormous in every way that i have to put it right at all cost. I have to attack myself all the time about it, and I have to attack the other person all the time about it. Becausae it is just too awful to let it lie."

--You can see how other people get swept up in self-hatred. It is explained by depression, but somehow personaility and pathology don't remotely seem separate enough for the person to escape responsibility for what they are doing.

Depression is a illness not an excuse
as I keep telling Dh

Who seems to wave it at me everytime something is said
"you have to understand I have depression"
"it was`nt me yes I said/did it but thats cos i have depression"
It just makes me more angrier and resentful at the mess we are in

Nifty, so true.

I had just started to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I had just started to believe that it wasn't going to go on like this forever. That there could be a future for us that wasn't based on a sufferer-carer relationship.

And this has thrown me backwards. Of all the relapses he has had in the past 2 years, this one comes when I had rekindled hope and trust.

I believe that you are always responsible for your own behaviour, particularly towards others. And in all honesty he has not done everything in his power to contain the beast (so to speak). A couple of weeks ago he forgot to take his ADs for 3 days, and then lied about it. He doesn't always do the exercises he is given. He was jogging every couple of days, but now hasn't been for a few weeks.

Everything that he was doing to keep him healthy has been sidelined.

And I know how hard it is. I've been there myself. How hard it can be to motivate yourself, and keep going. But he has to! For my sake, for the dcs.

And I do feel that if he means it when he says he is sorry for how he has treated me, then he can prove it by forcing himself to do everything he can.

And maybe that's unfair of me. But he wants this too. And I can't do it for him. I can encourage and praise and cajole. But I can't do it.

I suppose it's kind of like being an alcoholic. You can take "the cure", but you never actually stop being an alcoholic, you have to take one day at a time forever after. There's always the chance of a relapse. Maybe a note of hope is if he's "cleaned up", as it were, once before he can do it again. But I do think you need to be ready and able to leave him if you have to, and he has to believe that you will. Please god you won't have to.

Nifty, I don't let him get away with that anymore. The depression makes you feel a certain way, but you choose how to behave.

Don't make my mistake of letting him take no responsibility for anything, taking all the blame, thinking I'm helping alleviate his burden, only for him to get worse and worse with me as the volunteer-scapegoat for everything that was wrong.

He says it is himself he hates. And he finally accepted that he projected all of that onto me.

"You can take the horse to the water but you can`t make it drink"
you can support but only to a point at the end of the day its them that have to do the rest

When it affects you emoitonally and physcially that you are no good to anyone
The dcs etc etc
because you are drained and trying to deal with your own issues/unsecurites/angier (that he has put on you)

then its time to think about yourself

Actually, the more I think about this, the more I feel a bit discouraged for you. My advice above stands re. getting help for you.

I'll risk a flaming here but I would advise you to keep a close eye on your DC's as this situation will no doubt escalate.

The mental and physical well-being of your children must come first. I think that if it looks like they are going to suffer, then you have to get out or at least get your DH to move out for a while. It's all very well for him to stop taking his ADs and lie to you about it, (you're old enough and wise enough to deal with the fall-out), but the effect it may have on your DCs is another matter.

I so know what you are going through, and you have my deepest and most heartfelt sympathy.

my dh was diagnosed bipolar in last year and I (I!) am now on anti-depressents and sleeping pills and in therapy -- and i am not the ill one. he is currently off the drugs and has lost confidence in his talking therapist.

the collatoral damage of mental illness is huge, and the "it's not him, it's the illness" thing does not help when you are on receiving end day in day out. i think it may be made more tolerable if dh in moments of calm and better health can apologise and thank for support and say he is doing his best to get better.

but the nature of mental illness is that sufferers do come off their meds, stop seeing their therapists or go through very bad patches, and dws just get it in the neck. i think it is great that you did have a good patch. in my case all trust and affection have gone.

as my GP just said to me when he was printing out my prescriptions "please do not forget you are the healthy one" ie do not compromise your own mental health. your children need one of you to be well. you know what you are capable of putting up with. if you can carry on handling the uncertainty that is fantastic but do not feel bad if you have reached the end of the line.

Annie, I really hope I won't have to

Lemony, that was the point where I asked him to move out before. When he started to hurt the children (emotionally) then there was no other option. Of course, by then they had seen their mother broken into bits, which I feel terrible for not protecting them from.

So far he has not behaved badly towards me. All the things have been minor. IT's the fear of more that worries me.

I will protect my children. If I can ask him to move out when I am physically disabled by SPD, have no help nearby, and am 7 months pregnant, then I can do it when I'm fit and healthy.

I don't want to be drained the way I was. But I do want to help. Catch 22 anyone?

OP - Yes, you need to support him, and help him BUT:
1 not at the cost of your own health
2 you CAN'T do itall for him - he also has to make an effort to pull himself out of it.

IME, some people with depression can wallow in it a bit IYKWIM? I had a boyfriend in my teens who used to call me up several times a day and cry down the phone at me, and talk about killing himself etc - yes it's a crippling illness (I'm not disputing that) but the will to recover has to come from within.

ducati, it's amazing how many people are in our position and not receiving help.

DH had talking therapy for over a year and not only did it not help, it made him worse. He used it to reinforce what he was doing and alleviate his guilt, rather than to make him better. He would scream at me, and then tell his therapist he was being "assertive" and she'd say how great that was and that he should do it more. She also helped him get in touch with his anger, and gave him no methods of dealing with it ( not impressed). He was so reliant on her the suggestion that he change therapists made him shake.

Now he's receiving CBT (finally, after a 6 month wait) and it seems to be helping, since the focus is on the action and interpretation and not on the reason behind it - so he can't hide from his behaviour.

The irony of me encouraging him to see her, and it making him worse, is not lost on me

When he left her he sent her a letter explaining what he had been doing and how worry he was for abusing it all (I was very proud). She replied saying that she was worried he was delusional since she had only ever thought him to be a loving and caring man who was desperately trying to put his family first

I'm still in two minds about going and seeing her 6 months later. But I think it's best to let it rest. He did this, not her.

Wini, I do feel like he must be feeding it in some way to keep it going. The CBT has made a big difference in this and he has been trying to think more positively. I just hope he can come back from this. I believe he can.

YKN,
My therapist never used to let me talk about 'relapsing'. She called it 'lapsing' and thought the difference was important. It didn't just happen to me, I let it happen at least on some level.

I learned to take responsibility for getting and keeping well as an active process, and for monitoring myself so that if I was not in a good place I admitted it to myself and I did something about it, as well as asking for help from others.

Your DH has to take that responsibility too. Of course he will want and need your help but you can only be expected to support him not carry him.

Do you think that's the first step here? He has to recognise and act on that responsibility, and I think it is perfectly acceptable for you to make help and support conditional on that. The alternative is a re-run of the awful things that happened before.

I don't entirely agree with people posting that it's an illness so that he can't help what he does. It's his illness but he retains judgment and the ability to decide how to act.

When I was very very ill, my family was understanding but never let me get away with being vile. They also expected me to recognise how hard things were for them. It was difficult at the time but also useful to my recovery, and it preserved our relationships far better than any self-effacing sacrifice would have done.

In practical terms, apart from stressing his primary responsibility I can only suggest making very clear that there are boundaries he must respect and that you will enforce however ill he gets, to preserve your mental health and safeguard the children, which I know is very easy for me to type but very hard for you to do.

Good luck and don't feel guilty

Eldritch, thank you very much for that post.

He does need to take responsibility. That's exactly it. You have hit the nail on the head.

I am guilty of enabling his illness rather than making him face up to it - at least I was guilty of this, this time last year. But at the time I had no clue that by being kind to him and making allowances I was helping release this monster into our lives.

You sound incredibly strong BTW

And now you've said it, it all seems so obvious. I've suffered with depression in the past, and spend a lot of time monitoring myself to keep me on an even-keel. And because I put a small (but constant) effort into this I have been "well" (apart from an unsurprising dip at the beginning of the year where I went straight to my GP) for 3 years.

Why should I expect any less from him?

eldritch made good points.

"In practical terms, apart from stressing his primary responsibility I can only suggest making very clear that there are boundaries he must respect and that you will enforce however ill he gets, to preserve your mental health and safeguard the children, which I know is very easy for me to type but very hard for you to do. "

you have to set the boundaries. it is a huge responsibility on you.

if he has some place to go to live elsewhere when he is "low" then that might be an option?

but he has to be able to show he is in control of his depression and that he knows what to do when it is bad so it does not impact on you or the dcs.

if he cannot do that - then in my mind only option is to live separately.

my depressed exP was violent so in a way is easier to say "no" to - is very simple. but he will still try to worm and manipulate and make it my fault and if i only had him back everything would be fine... it would not.

your case is different - you have seen him "come back" and be who you want him to be....but you need a plan for when he slips.

he needs a plan.

you can set boundaries over when you have time to talk. for example. so at other times he has to make an effort, be there for the dcs etc.

and if he isnt up to it - you and he need a plan for where will he go, how to manage it.

you have 3 children to care for.

can you really also care for a H with serious illness? without the dcs losing out?

who is most important here?

how can it be managed practically speaking?

the DCS have the least choice here.

as eldritch said:

"you can only be expected to support him not carry him."

he is an adult and responsible for his medication/well being/treatment.

his depression is his responsibility.

you have to decide what your limits are - and spell them out to him.

where did he go when he left before? is that location an option again?

he could go but still be involved when he is up to it? so that you dont have to put up with any abuse?

You shouldn't expect anything less from him. Your children should come first (and you've already said that's the case). I also strongly disagree with Fabster. Wedding vows are not a licence for abuse. Yes, for better for worse, but there's a limit......

I will reiterate my point (at the risk of boring you ) that the children need to be taken care of, and so do you.

You can't be responsible for your H. You can try to help him all you can, but at the end of the day, it's his responsibility....

Having been in a relationship with someone who was bipolar and having suffered emotionally from the "stuff" surrounding all that, I know it's really, really hard....

cest you're right. I should sit down with him while he is well enough to think rationally and decide on a worst case scenario course of action. If he has a hand in designing it then it will be easier to implement if need be. We'll both know where we stand.

Sadly there is nowhere for dh to go: He was previously lodging at a friend's house, but his friend kicked him out for having no respect for his home

I think I'd like to write up some rules and their consequences - it would mean I wouldn't have to fear what might come, because it is already planned for.

This might be the solution

Any ideas what to put in it?

Lemony anyone trying to make sure my children are cared for, will never bore me.

I'm sorry, but depression is a horrible illness, however IMO it does NOT give you permission to treat your closest like punchbags!!
Does he behave like that with everyone else when he is depressed because if he doesnt/if its just youm then he CAN control it, he just chooses not to with you!

macdoodle, just me

He's held down a challenging job, behaved normally around everyone else...

actually one of the signs he was on the road to recovery was when he started letting his mask slip around other people. The less effort he put into appearing to be the perfect husband, the more energy he had to actually get better.

"but his friend kicked him out for having no respect for his home "

well that sounds familiar.... in 2007 after the major crisis, my exP went off to his family in his home country...they kicked him out too! he came crying "they said i couldnt be with them any more..."

if the friend wont put up with his behaviour - then why should you?

now the friend who was helping exP out with supervising contact etc is also fed up, says he owes him money etc...tho to give her credit she is still trying to help him.

another mutual friend told him in no uncertain terms they were not prepared to help out any longer.

it all gets skewed by "he is the dcs dad"

but there comes a point when, as lemony said, "the children need to be taken care of, and so do you.".

you have to put them and you first.

he could rent a room somewhere?
does he have a job?

He does have a job. And thankfully it hasn't suffered with his illness. I think he put all his effort into his worklife and none in at home.

I hope it won't come to him moving out. I hope this is a temporary blip that will remind him that he needs to make an effort to stay on top of things.

I will put us first. Just had a bit of a chat with ds1 to make sure he is happy with how things are at the moment (he is old enough to understand some of this, at least that dad is ill), and he says he is. So that's good.

One good thing about his friend kicking him out was that he got to see that it wasn't just "my perception" of his behaviour that was the problem, it was actually his behaviour.

hmmm yes, the work thing. that sounds familiar too.

after my dh's work-induced breakdown when bipolar was first diagnosed, he has taken no holiday (i have gone alone with dcs) works every evening when he gets in and actually managed to start up a new company on top of everything else.

he argues that he needs to keep working to stay sane and keep the depression etc at bay. fair enough. it was ghastly when he was unable to work for a couple of months. but if he had put 1/10th of the effort into our marriage that he has put into his job since the breakdown, our relationship would not be crumbling around our ears.

sorry to barge in with my stuff, but sure you understand....