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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Over or under reaction

103 replies

gonnabehappy · 09/10/2009 10:00

I will really appreciate some input here - my brains are scrambled. Most of the story is on 'healing after the affair' so I will just describe this week.

Eldest son's best mate took an overdose last Sunday. For very complex reasdons she effectively has no parents and her grandparents who were supposed to be caring for her were out of the country. Son and I spent Sunday night, Monday and Tuesday at the hopsital (I was shocked to find that if there is no 'responsible' adult she would not be supplied with toothbrush and toothpaste after vomiting for hours, neither could she activate the TV when moved to an ordinary teen bed without a credit card - what on earth is happening in the NHS...but that may be for another thread). As you can imagine is has been a truly terrible few days, and son is exhausted emotionally and physically. I guess so am I.

Then just as things have settled, I get a telephone call from the school. It appears that middle son had saved up his pocket mney to buy a BB gun (something he knew he was NOT allowed to have under any circumstances). Of course he took it into school to show off to his friends, and accidentally fired a shot (I am pretty sure he did not realise it had any ammo in it, it did only have one pellet). Quite properly he is now excluded from the school for a day and may receive a talking to from the police when he returns next week.

Then, having got upset about the level of deceit I deceided (WHY????) to look at husband's phone. Yep - although he now is aware enough to wipe all texts emails etc if he does not want me to see them it was possible to see that he had been searching his address book for OW contact details. Of course I went upstairs and asked him what this was about. He said he could not remember.

I then went back downstairs and tried to get back into his facebook and personal email - those he used to stay in touch with OW before. I couldn't - no surprises there I knew he had changed passwrds. He came down and asked what I was doing. I told him and asked him to let me see his facebook. Guess what - he could not remember how to get into either facebook or hotmail! However he did 'remember' that he had been told at work that OW's mother had died. He had searched for her contact details in order to send a message of condolence. He says he thought better of it and did not make conatct.

This week he has been very very down, almost tearful. He says that this is because he is depressed about money. Last time he was like this it was to do with OW.

My brain is churning - is this the lie that ends it all? Is he really trying to repair things? If so why does he keep secrets and lie? He said over and over again that he loves me. But all I can hear is all the things he said when he was being so cruel last summer.

This morning I said I was going to try and go away for the weekend (a friend has a place by the sea I can sometimes use). I said I would take the boys. He obviously does not want me to go - and I have not yet been able to get hold of this friend.

What a fucking mess - and I am soooo tired of it all. What should I do? My life feels like utter shit. Have been making a small reduction in ADs over past fortnight - really want to get off them but not good timing for anything.

OP posts:
gonnabehappy · 12/10/2009 12:23

Yes he does know she told me - he was cross about it at the time.

'The compassionate mind' starts by telling you to be compassionate to yourself - that is the bit I am trying to focus on.

He says he is truly sorry, says he will never do this to me and boys again, says he wants to make it work. I feel as tough it is a lack in me - I may not believe him right now but have to move on so we have a chance. He is stuck - he feels that everything he says can be misinterpreted or not believed. We are stuck. Does that kinda make sense?

OP posts:
Lemonylemon · 12/10/2009 15:13

Yes he does know she told me - he was cross about it at the time.

I'll bet he bloody well was.....

Just because your DH has says that he's truly sorry and will never do it again, doesn't mean to say that you have to stay with him. You don't have to forgive him within a week/month or so.

HE DOES have to stop lying - he is not giving you the chance to love him and forgive him by continuing to act as he does.

So long as he continues to act this way, you have the right not to forgive him or to stay with him for that matter.

Yes, it's a noble idea to stay for the sake of the kids, but kids get just as messed up by parents staying together and then living in a dreadful atmosphere than by one of the parents moving out.

You may be a crap couple together, but you can be good parents.

FWIW I think that your DH is depressed, brought on by feeling totally sorry for himself, not by any particular remorse for what he has done to you or your family....

CaptainRex · 12/10/2009 17:01

Yes he does know she told me - he was cross about it at the time.

See that statement says everything about his feelings. If he was truely repentant and sorry, he wouldn't have been angry at being found out, he would have been sorry and grovelling for your forgiveness.

He was angry because he had been found out yet again.

WWIFN's list is a great place to start if he truely wants to make amends, but I'm guessing its all just whitewash and he will be off after another piece of skirt before long

HappyWoman · 12/10/2009 18:12

gonna - yes the being stuck does ring a chord with me.

Why are you inadequate for not being able to forgive??
Is he asking for it before you can move on together?

How do you feel if you think that you may never forgive him for this - are you willing to accept that it could be the outcome? Is he?

Slowly slowly - there is nothing NOTHING wrong in your thinking and neither he nor anyone else should make you think your feelings are not important.

Make a list of things you want and deserve from him and your marriage. Even share it with him - he may have some ideas to add to it too.

You are not a fool for trying but if in your heart of hearts you want to stop - you must do so.
You really cant destroy something he has already broken - let him fix it and dont worry about the time it takes - there is no limit to it.

We are 3 years on and this weekend it has been discussed at length again (not a good weekend for either of us actually ).

gonnabehappy · 12/10/2009 19:08

Oh Happy - I am sorry.

I really do want to try and make our relationship a happy one. I do believe he wants that too. However I guess it is debatable how much he will change to bring this about.

I really don't want to be still trying, essentially alone, in three years time.

Would you feel able to share what sparked off your poor weekend Happy?

When - your list is good. The trouble is I think he honestly believes he is doing these things.

One difficulty is that he is selfish (and he admits this). But I have colluded in this. I have spent years (decades) filling in the gaps and accepting he was unable to put me first. Because I truly believed he loved me and would always love me even if he was crap at showing it I let a lot of things go. Now I don't know that I am asking for change. It is tough on him too.

OP posts:
gonnabehappy · 12/10/2009 19:10

Btw the way the main reason he was cross was that he did not want me hurt not that he was found out.

OP posts:
countingto10 · 12/10/2009 19:50

If he didn't want to hurt you, he shouldn't have done it !!!!!

Gonna, I really think you should both go to Relate, get everything out in front of an independent third party. They have a scale of charges and whilst me and DH started on the highest, it was put to the lowest of £20 per session when it was obviously to therapist that we had no disposable income even though on paper my DH's business has a large turnover etc.

gonnabehappy · 12/10/2009 21:59

Yep.

He sent me a text saying he loves me today. I sent him one asking him to help me trust him so I can really love him again, he said he would.

He is at footie now - and I have spent all evening trying to get into his email/facebook. No good at all.

OP posts:
HappyWoman · 13/10/2009 07:38

gonna - when you said your h is selfish - that is exactly what my is.

He was brought up as an only child (parents had a very nasty split - but that is another story). He essentially had a very happy childhood and was doted on and pretty much got everything he he needed.
Like you i feel i filled a lot of the gaps.

In some ways his selfishness has helped. For instance i do believe that he pretty much gets what he wants out of life. In work, the home and family life. He is single minded sometimes in his pursuit of what he wants - and that has meant he has a very good well paid job which we all benifit from.
He was also very ill as a young adult and that has given him a determination to 'go for it' 'lifes too short' attitude. Which again can be pretty hard work sometimes but also has its up side. We do get a lot of things 'done' - no hanging around when we/he decides to decorate .

Our awful weekend was because he told a really stupid lie (he seems so able to do this). It was not a nasty lie and nothing to do with the affair. He has been trying to work out why he feels the need to lie and have a bit of him 'secret' - and he has really come a long way. It was a setback for him really.
But i has said i would not tolerate ANY lies however silly (he is not a child after all!!!).

We did a lot of talking - and to be honest he knows he has put us back a long way again . But it has also made me feel stonger in some ways (in the past i would let some of these silly selfish things go by).

What i am trying to say is that it may be in his nature to be a bit selfish - but he now needs to learn to share and open up or he risks losing his marriage. And if he really is selfish he may not want to do that.

We see his selfishness more of a positive now and can laugh about it most of the time. But it has taken a long time and he is still learning all the time.
He feels he knows himself more now why it happened and he says he feels so different now. It is a factor of why it happened but also he needs to recognise that and ensure it will not happen again.

I would urge your h to take some time to get some counselling and get to these route causes.

You also need to 'get tough' and not allow his selfishness to continue - and again i wonder if you could use some help in this.

Anyway i hope that helps - your posts do sound very much as if he wants this to work but at his pace and his terms (because he is selfish ?? ) - I just dont think that will work - sorry. Please do think about getting some help either together or apart. I think together at first so that any counselling can see it from both sides and maybe then seperate.

Anyway have a good day - do something nice for yourself today .

HappyWoman · 13/10/2009 07:42

And as for trying to get into his email and facebook - they shouldnt have passwords - they should be open to you now.
This is something my h found hard too - but now i can freely look at them (i do from time to time - but it is mostly boring work now). Of course he can still have a secret one but him taking the first hard step it will help you.
He too needs to change remember and although he may not like it these are things he has to do to help you. And my h says that too.

gonnabehappy · 13/10/2009 08:51

I am fairly sure he has not used them for ages and has genuinely forgotten passwords etc!

Thank you for your post - it is has lifted my spirits somewhat even though I am sorry you confronted that demon again this weekend.

You are right, some of his lies are automatic - I do tell him I am not his mother! I am going to ask my father if I can borrow some money for counselling, that will eradicate the argument that we can't afford it anyway.

Thanks - and maybe you should take your own advice and do something really nice for yourself today too!

OP posts:
HappyWoman · 13/10/2009 09:42

already taking my own advice - went for a lovely long walk today and yesterday and having a beauty treatment today followed by lunch with a friend (probably more like a talk it all through again ).

And sorry it is rot that he has forgotten his passwords - there is always a way to retrieve them - sit down and do it together (and thats the advice from my h to yours).

I said to my h yesterday i am not his mother and i am not prepared to listen to his silly lies anymore. I think he is more scared than i have ever know him - he has no control of me or the marriage anymore - i stay because he enhances my life (it would still be great without him in it though). That is the place we need to get you to.

But small steps and you will one day be there and be able to look back at all this crap and not feel as if a knife is twisting in your gut. You will wish it had never happened but you will accept it and maybe even see some good to have come from it.

I really do wish you well and hope you find the peace within yourself.

HappyWoman · 13/10/2009 09:45

yes borrow the money - it does sound like a lot but i promise you if you find the right one it will not take long and with a few pointers i think you at least be on the right path.
And him just agreeing to go will be a huge show of his willingness to do anything and i am sure will help with the first chink in that protective wall you have built around yourself.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 13/10/2009 13:03

Gonna - please, please follow up on that counselling. I was so pleased to read that this morning. This is progress from yesterday, when you said you couldn't face it.

I still feel that you accept his explanations far too readily - and then resume thinking that it must be you who is going mad and having unrealistic expectations. He cannot seriously think he is doing everything on that list in my earlier post can he? And surely you don't? As I said to you before, even what he has admitted to you re. considering calling the OW is bad enough - and very revealing.

As Happy Woman says, his E mail accounts and social networking sites should be open to you. There should be no secretive behaviour whatsoever. Being open and transparent about activities restores trust. Saying he cannot remember the passwords is balderdash - they are so easily retrieved and he knows that.

Why has he still even got OW's number in his phone? In your position, I'm afraid, I'd be checking phone records, as well as the accounts you tried to hack into last night. Like Happy Woman said downthread, I don't trust your H one iota and I can't imagine why you do.

All your H seems to do is say sorry and that he loves you and wants to stay with you. But words are cheap - it really is about actions - and I just can't see any of those from your posts.

A counsellor would pick this up in a flash - and maybe if you actually heard a RL professional telling you what we've been trying to, it might help. It will certainly wake your H up from his delusions.

When choosing a counsellor, please ask for someone who specialises in recovery from affairs. I'd want to know that they have intimate knowledge and understanding of what I think is the bible of affairs - a book called Not Just Friends by Dr. Shirley Glass.

However much you might want to hear it, because in the nicest way, it lets you off the hook from tackling the issues - please avoid like the plague, any counsellor who wants to rush your recovery and acceptance. Abedelia's experience is just such an example of this - counsellors like this shouldn't be in business IMO.

Conversely, counselling might cause you to confront some of your own unhelpful behaviours too - and apart from anything you might gain as a couple, I think you'll learn a lot about yourself.

On to other points made by posters. Happy Woman, I was so glad to see your posts from today. When you have a wobble, I think we all get worried!

I would echo all that you've said about your H's selfishness. My H completely admits that he has spent his entire adult life being selfish - and he sees the affair as an extreme manifestation of that. As a case in point, he readily but painfully acknowledges that his reasons for wanting to end the affair were all about his needs - and not anything to do with mine and the pain he was causing me and our marriage.

In fact he hadn't even acknowledged that it was causing any pain or damage, despite a long chat we'd had about his awful behaviour at home 6 weeks earlier. I had cried, asked him whether there was someone else and received a complete denial and protestations of extreme love for me.

Towards the end of the affair, he had tired of OW, wasn't interested in her any longer and found her needy, demanding and intrusive. He did care about hurting her feelings though, but like the arch manipulator he was, felt that the best way forward was to "get himself dumped" by her, by refusing to see her again, being slow to reply to texts and urging her to make a go of things with her husband. It has angered me that he never once mentioned that it was time to re-commit to his own marriage too - but I have had to accept that at the time, bizarrely, he never thought he was causing me or our marriage damage. This story causes me pain and some satisfaction too. I'm pleased that OW was never a real threat and that he never saw this relationship as long-term or a possible alternative, but it appalls me that he only wanted to end it when it no longer suited his needs.

Unfortunately for us, there haven't been too many positive spin-offs from his selfishness, mainly because his other great vice was extreme laziness. This has been one of the most amazing transformations in him - I just don't see any of that in him anymore. He would work his fingers to the bone to make my life easier now and without being a complete doormat (which wouldn't be very attractive ) he just isn't selfish any longer. Counselling on his own really helped him to tackle some major character faults.

Sadly however, one big bone of contention has reared its head this past week - and when I saw your post Happy Woman, a shiver went down my spine.

Over the past year, I have caught him out in several lies (about the affair). Not about the major things - in fact some of them have been utterly pointless and the truth would not have made me feel any worse. He has never really been able to account for why he he has done that - but like yours HW, he has always loved having a secret and it's something we acknowledged in him in the very early post-discovery days. He's often had trouble describing things as "lies" too - and on some issues, I have conceded that he didn't understand they were lies at the time, but with new understanding, realised that in fact he was lying to himself more than anyone.

Then there have been other things that are mystifying. Things that he has withheld and lied about when questioned - but didn't internally acknowledge that he was actually lying.

One of these "slipped out" this weekend (must have been something in the air!) and in fact it was a pretty major lie about something that happened during the affair. What was worse was that he didn't "come to the table" with this information - it came out during a conversation, almost as though he thought he had told me about it all along. I sat there open-mouthed, my stomach lurched and my mind was racing.

The thing itself doesn't cause any particular fresh pain - and had I known about it a year ago, wouldn't have made much difference to the outcome. But the lying has really hurt, particularly as he has repeatedly lied about it when questioned.

He cannot account for it and a load of fresh doubts have re-surfaced, leading to much googling about pathological liars. He has been in bits, knowing he's let me down again. I'm now wondering how much more is unknown to me and since he doesn't seem to even acknowledge that he's withholding information, even he cannot seem to help me with this one.

This is the worst "down" we've had in a long while and I am in turmoil. I know that we love each other deeply and that he is the most caring, adoring and selfless husband I could wish for. But I would say I've always had 2 sticking points in my recovery:

1)How can I carry on with these awful flashbacks and knowledge about how badly I was treated - like most of us on here, I find I obsess about the affair constantly and have awful images that I cannot remove from my head.

2)How can I continue a marriage with someone who lies - and sometimes doesn't even realise he's doing it?

Any words of wisdom gratefully received. Hopefully this will reassure you too Gonna, that the people on here are far from sorted!

countingto10 · 13/10/2009 13:57

God, it must be something in the air this week. I had a really terrible weekend with DH. He went to the doctors on Friday as he thought he had another chest infection but she diagnosed mild depression. Apparently after the affair, the counselling etc, depression is quite common. I personally think he has been quite seriously depressed for the last 2 years+, because the serious business/financial problems and this led the affair and serious gambling problems.

Like your H Whenwill, my DH is a very good liar, blagger, whatever you would like to call it. He actually told me that how could I have known about the affair because he is so good at lying. Has lied all his life from a very early age, had an extremely dysfunctional childhood (lived with his parents, grandparents and a maiden aunt - his grandmother actually asked him when he was 5 years old who he loved most, her or his mother WTF!!!! He was also subject to some sexual abuse as well). He also has serious self-esteem issues and he only admitted to me during the midst of his affair (when he was staying with OW (without muy knowledge) that he was a virgin when he met me (aged 29). The counsellor puts all these things down to his childhood and he has acted like a 5 year old all his life.

He has made big changes to his behaviour and everyone is noticing. He wasn't just badly behaved towards me. But he absolutely refuses to go back to discussing his affair. He gets pains in his chest even thinking about it, the OW completely repulses him (she was a right minger in every sense) and he cannot believe what he did. He says if he thinks about it at all he will probably completely breakdown and will not be able to work for a couple of weeks which we cannot afford atm. I really feel he has not dealt with most of his issues, in complete denial about some ie the abuse as it is too painful and he would not be able to cope atm. Obviously I still have things I want to discuss about the affair, so what do I do ?

My counsellor told me to write the questions down and he can then give me the answers. But he feels he has discussed most things. He just keeps saying everything was appalling at that time, his behaviour was appalling and despicable and her behaviour was just as mad together with manipulating.

It was interesting that your DH tried to get OW to dump him, my DH tried to get OW to do that same but she refused to take the bait. In the end he had to leave her because we had a Relate appointment the next day and I said there was no way he was going if he was still there. I found out about her the previous Monday, packed his stuff on the Tuesday, found out who she actually was on the Thursday, DH told me he wanted to come back to me and DC on the Friday, he eventually left her on the Wednesday. She had the potential to become a bunny boiler and he was genuinely concerned about what she would do. He actually parked his car away from our house in case she drove past.

Anyway here we are four months down the line. Had a better day to day after an appalling three days previously. The counsellor and also a friend whose H also had an affair has told me to "button it" as I can be domineering/controlling and DH has been subjected to domineering women all his life.

Anyway I have gone on long enough. I too am dreading finding something else out about the affair but hey, he lived with her for 6 weeks so I can only assume they did everything that people do when they live together.

countingto10 · 13/10/2009 14:11

BTW Whenwill, is he acutally lying or omitting to mention something ie lying by omission IYSWIM.

I am finding that if I am completely honest with DH when I am struggling with trust issues, whether he is being completely honest about something etc. he deals with it and me better than if I went snooping eg. He also tells me that he is fed up with lying and blagging, it is too tiring to keep it up etc. It is easier to be truthful and honest and he feels better about himself as well. Whether a year down the line, he will revert back we will have to wait and see ....

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 13/10/2009 15:23

Thanks Counting.

We've had the full range and spectrum of lies really. Lies of omission, definitely, especially in the early days. I found I got most information then by asking direct questions. Sometimes he would also answer the direct question asked, when most people would also add "but, on another occasion, I said this...."

Then we've had lies that he's told himself. I think I've said that he believed at the time he was only doing this for sexual excitement, but that didn't explain why it went on after he had decided that the sex was pretty awful.

We've had lies where he'd said that he didn't reference the question properly. For example, he once told me that during the last month of the affair, he had stopped sending gushing, loving or even sexually explicit texts. I then asked him one night when was the last time he'd told her he'd loved her, only for him to admit that this had been on discovery night, twice in answer to direct questions from her. That caused a rumpus in December.

Then we've had out and out lies about nonsense. He once told me she'd never told anyone about the affair, only to let it slip weeks later that she'd in fact told her Mum. She sent him something in the post once - and he told me it had been sent to his work. It came out by accident that in fact she'd sent it to our home, while me and the kids were away.

A couple of months ago, he admitted that when he'd ended it with her, she had asked for financial recompense for her days off from work, her phone bills and the food she had cooked. He'd never told me this - and yet says that he wasn't deliberately with-holding this information as such, just that he was vaguely aware that I didn't know about that. As it turned out, she withdrew these demands pretty quickly, acknowledging that it made her sound like a prostitute asking for money for "services rendered".

Sometimes he forgets what he's told me too - and like I always say, the truth is easy to remember, but lies are difficult. So we've had numerous versions of different conversations and situations.

Then this whopper at the weekend. That really was an out and out lie. On numerous occasions, I've asked him about this situation - and he has even gone so far as to embellish the lie to make it seem more credible. The irony is, that the truth would have made me feel a bit better had I known about it all along. Don't want to give too much info, but it involved oral sex with OW that was disappointing to say the least - and which has always been brilliant between us. In our lighter moments, I've even teased him that he was terribly inefficient not finding an affair partner that was good at that!

Of course there were all the lies to OW too. He says every time he said he loved her, he knew that he was lying. He is adamant that he said he would never leave me - but he often softened the blow by adding that he couldn't leave the children etc. He fully admits that he "allowed" her to believe that's what was holding them back - without saying that explicitly. He says he never said anything disparaging about me or our relationship - but that's always been a sticking point with me - he'd be the first married man I've ever heard of, who didn't say anything bad about their partner or his marriage. But he insists she didn't need for him to be in an unhappy marriage to want to wreck it. And she told him an absolute bucketful of lies all the way along too.

To restore some balance, he has also freely volunteered lots of things that I couldn't possible find out from elsewhere - and which cast him in a very unfavourable light.

countingto10 · 13/10/2009 16:04

Sometimes we torture ourselves with all this stuff, some of the stuff really doesn't matter because, as my DH rightly says, it is all despicable, nasty, appalling behaviour from both of them. To be fair to my DH, he has held his hands up to everything, told me he told her he loved her etc (but as he says, he was/is very good at telling people what they want to hear ). He did say he told at the end when she asked if he loved he said no and told her he never actually did. He, in effect, used her as badly as he had treated me (but I am shredding no tears for her ).

I think I am like you, I want to know everything that said between, everywhere he took her, what he bought for her, who saw them together, what she said about me, what he said about me. He can't remember a lot of things because of his mental state at the time and I do genuinely believe he was having a breakdown and his therapist has confirmed this. And I know that thinking about OW does make his toes curl and maybe a few months down the line he will be able to open up more. I am not sure thay I want to know all the gory, sex details, (I know she had stretch marks and saggy boobs which is about as much as he told me) He also told me that he had to think of me to orgasm with her(this he volunteered almost immediately as if to make me feel better ) I really don't think I could cope with anymore information - I can assume they did everything together although he says none of it was spectacular, exciting etc. and he tried to avoid if possible (probably trying to make me feel better again).

I do think I have actually felt much better today because I haven't thought about her at all ie not obsessed, been into town shopping (without success ).

I think sometimes we just have to accept that our DHs have behaved appalling towards us and hopefully will not do so again, and we should know the warning signs in future anyway, and will be able to deal/cope with any bad behaviour much better in future.

HappyWoman · 13/10/2009 16:23

wow sounds like there was something in the air.

I think a lot of these men are still very immature and in fact we have got to take some of the blame for that. I think that as woman we too want to compete - be better than his mother/previous partner/ sister ....... So we somehow pander to his needs before our own (that too is in our nature - to be carers first).
So how do these men learn to grow up - well certainly not with the ow - she too is 'allowing' him to lie and get away with it.

It becomes a bit of a habit too - my h admits he is a liar in many areas (think good salesman), and also hates to be rude to people -so he can send a very mixed message to females (cant imagine him being rude if a woman asked him out to lunch - he would rather avoid than say he is not interested). - and that would be anyone even if he didnt really like them that much.
Whereas i think a woman wouldnt have a problem telling a bloke she was not interested in lunch.
Although again i think most woman would think 'whats he after?' whereas my h wouldnt think that and in fact would defend her actions as only 'work related' - yeah right that cant be done in the office???

Counting i think you need to make your h talk - because the longer it goes on the more he will 'forget' - this will not just go away for you and yes it will be painful for him but again he seems to be shifting the 'guilt' onto you. if you dare to mention it and make him talk he will become ill. Sorry but too bad - that happens to be another consequence of it all i am afraid.
If you dont listen to your NEEDS NOW i fear you will dismiss them and it will still be about how he wants to do it. Sorry if that sounds harsh but actually i think until these men do wake up to it there is a real chance it could happen again.

My h did this for a while - and it nearly broke us - it was only when he finally realised that in order for me to move on we had to talk about it that i started to heal.

Whenwill - i too used to worry about what he must have told ow about me - but my ow backed him up and said that he had in fact never said bad things about me to her. Although of course as we hear words are cheap - its actions that matter and the fact that he was with her was probably enough to convince her.

I do however believe that he never wanted to leave (and like your h made it out to be about the children), and until he was faced with that choice he just put it out of his head. All along the ow made out that she would not leave her h either - and her mistake was to let her h find out and so forcing the issue. She was clever though and did it very slowly only really making a firm play for him once i had started divorce. Funnily enough it was then that he found he did not like her anymore and could see what a calculating game she was playing. He felt very trapped by her then - and actually he never wanted a 'replacement' for me (because as he realised i was actually all he needed and wanted and was actually very good.)
Of course it took a lot of sweet talking and flowers to make me even consider him again - and we still have some lovely times together.

This weekend has made us see that we need some more time away just the two of us and i am not going to complain . Think i need a spa break - what do you think ladies??? Sorry meant WE - dont know what i was thinking there.

HappyWoman · 13/10/2009 16:28

They did treat the ow badly too - but the differnce is she knew what he was like - knew he was a liar from the start (unless like some he makes out he is not married). But i think that is not the norm.
I think too that the h is lapping up all the attention from her - she afterall has to prove to be better than the wife - and lets face it sex is an easy way to do this - it is easy and actually stops you from finding out what that person is really like in real situations.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 13/10/2009 18:09

Thanks ladies - it really helped me today getting some of that off my chest.

Counting - I understand what the therapist and your friend have said about "buttoning it", but like Happy Woman, I also have some discomfort with it. The trouble is, as time goes on, their memories actually do start to fade. In addition to the conversations I have reported below, there have also been lots of "I have no memory of that whatsoever" - which, given my H's generally terrible memory, I do believe. Sometimes I've wished he could be hypnotised!

Yes, I'm the sort of person who wants every single piece of information - it has been terribly important to me to "timeline" things too. I think I mentioned that my H and I have worked on something called a "shared understanding" of the affair.

One of the things he's actually working on at the moment is a written account of it all. That's been pretty painful at times for him, but it was his suggestion - and it has led to some new recollections. Months ago, I also wrote a retrospective diary entry from when this all started. My H cried his eyes out when he read how lonely and under-pressure I had been, all the while he was behaving like a complete arse. This might help you, Counting? Sometimes I think it has been helpful to choose a different medium for communication, so writing things down has helped.

My H also had trouble "telling people how it is" and had real discomfort saying "no" to people or requests. He'd actually started getting better at handling confrontation at work though, when all this started. But he'd always been frightened of appearing rude to people or of hurting people's feelings - especially women. OW first got a crush on him years ago because he was so kind - and I used to tease him that he couldn't spot a "come-on" signal at all. He also liked rescuing people from unhappy situations and OW had always painted herself as a victim.

Since discovery and counselling, he's become much "straighter" with people and his antennae has been raised about people's intentions too. One of the things he's also had to face up to was that he was in fact a terrible judge of character. Various people who've known OW over the years have described her as "a nightmare", "vindictive" and even "truly barking", but he tended to only see her as a "victim".

Like your DH Counting, he actually feels ashamed that he ever got involved with someone like this - she is a complete fantasist, but is cruel with it.

He freely admits that on occasions, he'd tell her what she wanted to hear - and some of her pappy, needy questions would have made it difficult to say otherwise e.g. "are you just using me for sex, or do you love me?" For others, he would refuse to answer. These were questions about our sex life, how often we made love etc.

I did need to know about the sex - and to an extent, it took some of the more frightening images away. Like yours Counting, my H often had to fantasise - and it really was so poor that he would often avoid it - they only met twice, despite constant requests from her for more meetings.

One of the things that helped me in the early days was my H's admission that had this been an above-board relationship, it would have fizzled out very quickly - there just wasn't enough to sustain his interest. But it's the illicit nature of these things that keep them going, even if in our case the "active phase" of the affair was actually only 4 months.

Where I am perhaps a bit different to you HW, is that prior to the affair, I was incredibly independent and did not pander to my H at all. I have several large groups of friends and regularly met them, went for weekends away etc. So actually one of the adjustments I have made is that I am much kinder and attentive to my H - and less critical. He puts me first in everything and I do the same for him now. I always believed before this that he loved me more than I did him - and I do know I took him for granted.

In our case, this was the one area where the OW could compete - she'd tell him how wonderful he was all the time and how desirable he was, whereas I was asking him to lose weight and to stop being so bloody untidy! This is the unfairness of affairs - the betrayed partner is not on a level playing field and it is very intoxicating being told how wonderful you are all the time.

One of the biggest shocks for me in all this has been that I actually love him far more than I thought I did - hence my heartbreak.

That doesn't mean I've abandoned my independence or my friends - but I find I want to spend more time with H now than before and like you, we have had a couple of lovely weekends away - and have got another one planned.

Any other thoughts you might have about the lying would be really welcome though - your views and opinions are so valuable to me.

countingto10 · 13/10/2009 18:15

You have some wise words Happywoman. I know my DH has to open up more. TBH I think I was/am quite confrontational/accusational when questioning him and this make him defensive and "clam up". I know I am doing this and I know I will not get results when I ask this way. I know that when I have been more "reasonable" (for the want of a better word) he has opened up and answered questions.

Sometimes I think I ask the questions in the hope of answers that will make me feel better and when this doesn't happen, I then shut down and, in his words, go quiet on him. He then doesn't want to discuss things again because of this. It is a vicious circle and we both end up feeling bad. I am going to leave it for a while and try again in, hopefully, a more considerate way which will get the results I want. We are going away at the end of the month on our own for a couple of nights, this has resulted in more discussion in the past and hopefully will again this time.

He's had a tooth out today (massive hole in his mouth) so I definitely won't mention tonight.

I personally think all us ladies need a "girls only" spa break where we can all talk to our heart's content

HappyWoman · 13/10/2009 19:10

whenwill - thanks
When i say i pandered to him and his needs i did not give up myself totally - over the years we sort of got ourselves into a lifestyle - we had lots of friends i did lots on my own too but i did give up a good career to be a sahm. I didnt resent it but i do think i lost a bit of who i was then.
And like you the ow was very good at telling how wonderful he was at work (i of course had no idea how good he was at work so couldnt compete) and at home it was like any other home i am sure (the very mundane boring washing cooking and diy - between the childcare of course). So of course anything she could offer was 'exciting' and certainly different to home.
Not a level playing field at all.

I think i too was shocked at just how much it hurt when i found out as i thought i would just kick him out at the first wiff of an affair. Instead i found i really loved him and did not want to give it up (not without a really good fight anyway), and of course once it was out in the open the balance changes - and usually in favour of the wife.
Which only fuels the ow dislike of her even more - 'how can she still want him when he has been up to xyz with me?'
And it is funny because that is the exact same time that my h says she became needy (once i knew). Which of course then means he had to face up to what he had done to her too - and being the lovely kind man he thinks he is he did not want to hurt her more than he knew he was going to.

Men ehhh? They just never want to face up to things do they?
Whilst in the affair they dont think they are hurting anyone and once they know they are going to have to hurt someone they clam up and find it very hard.

But all that being said - i do love my h (warts and all) and like you have found a new level to that and actually i am in some ways grateful as it has helped him open up in other ways too.
However would never reccomend it to save a marriage.

countingto10 · 13/10/2009 19:43

Must have crossed posts with you Whenwill. Some very wise words again.

I found some emails in my drafts yesterday from the period when he was staying/living with OW. They were me pleading with him to think of the DC, asking him to get some counselling/help because I was scared of his mental state etc, asking him to come back to marital home - didn't help after weekend we had. It was interesting to read them, to see what my state of mind was like (shock/trauma that he had effectively abandoned me with 4DC), to read them and his responses now knowing that he was with the OW and I had no idea .

The time line thing is interesting because I now look back and think was he really there, was that bit true. TBH he basically formed some sort of relationship with her, she manipulated him and he left me within about two weeks and it really was that quick. As he says, hardly the actions of a sane man !!!!! The whole thing was about 2 months long. I think he wanted a relationship with her and in his warped mind (ie he wasn't a man who had affairs) he would have to leave me first (he has admitted that this was his thought process). He took about 10 mins to leave me, told me he needed his "space" and that he would be staying with mates, contactable via mobile - really quite appalling and makes me feel incredibly sad thinking about it now. When he left her, it took him a whole day because she was so incredibly needy, unstable etc. He says I saved him and therapist said he needed me to "rescue" him from OW such was his mental state and looking back now I can see that. It was a most peculiar time for both of us and I find it extremely strange that OW has made no attempt to contact him. I feel that she had made a serious attempt to wreck my and the DC's lives and she really didn't care enough about my DH to even slightly "stalk" him IYSWIM.

As I said to my DH, she really couldn't have cared that much and he says that too. Maybe it was all a game to her and we also think some of her behaviour while he was with her was bordering on the psychotic eg she would go from screaming and threatening him to smiling and being nice with the flick of a switch.

It really has been cathartic talking to you ladies who are slightly further down the line than me. Thank you.

HappyWoman · 13/10/2009 21:21

perculiar - a good word for that time.

Ikwym about almost wanting the ow to stalk him.

I still feel there is a bit of unfinished business and find it hard to believe that she has not really contacted him since to ask for an explanation.
I think she got herself some help and had some counselling so i cant really slate her for that.
It is hard but i try and see her as much as a victim as me.

The funny thing is she went back to her h too - and i find that hardest - i think poor bastard having to put up with her cheating ways but then really he is no different to me .
Anyway no more overthinking for now - lets enjoy our lives just the way they are now - its the only thing that is real.