Narsissistic personality disorder

[therealme]

I'm English, living overseas. I'm married for 17 yrs and most of that has been pretty awful. I recently 'came clean' about my abusive relationship with dh on a parenting site where I live and I have had my eyes opened for the first time that maybe it's not all my fault anymore. I have blamed myself for everything that has 'gone wrong' in my marriage - although I have genuinly messsed up on more than one occasion.

I received a lot of support from people but didn't believe I was worthy of it. Then somebody suggested I google Narsissistic Personality Disorder and that is the moment my whole world changed. For the very fist time I began to see that maybe it wasn't ME that might have all the problems. I saw my 'perfect' dh described in black and white and the words 'personality disorder' were attached to his behaviours. To say the ground shifted from under me would be an understatement.

So now I find myself at a turning point in my life. I know I have to end my marriage. It's emotionally, verbally and mentally abusive. I now recognise that I am a shell of the person that I once was, have had the life blood drained out of me, but still have enough of a spark in me to want to fight for some peace of life at 42! I have 3 children whom I love and adore - but who also love their Daddy. I'm living financially independently from my dh who refused to support me financially after ds 2 was born 6 yrs ago. I want him out of the house and out of my life!

I've made my mind up, but I am still so weak when it comes to taking action. I have spent so long living in a confused and guilt-ridden state, does that make sense?
Is there anybody out there who has experience of living with a narsissistic partner? How do you make the break? How do you ever find the strength to stand up to them in order that you might have some quality of life left for yourself? Please advise.....

Sakura-
Is your h an android?

26 years ago, I broke an engagement with a fellow I dated for 3-1/2 years in college. He was emotionally abusive. I didn't have the vocabulary to stand my ground with his 'mind games'. Questions of his sexuality, unfaithfulness, lies, monitored and judged, ridiculed, no respect...
I believe I was an offering to his mother-I was studying in a field related to her business; I was going to be free labor.

Instinctively, I knew I shouldn't marry him. I knew it would end in divorce and counseled myself to skip the divorce and thus to break the engagement. I think about him quite often-thanking God everyday, that I did not marry him.

It just never, never dawned on me that I was being abused by my own sister!

Another thought for you therealme:

Have you tried spilling a cup of milk all over the table-yes-on purpose?

Try it; I think it will be illuminating.

Now, it will just be a spill of milk, need a couple of paper towels and about 50 seconds to clean it up.

Before-well, you know what it would have meant before .

So when you are ever having doubts-that cup goes over. And it will be a pleasure to wipe it up.

Toomany, I have started my small rebellion already. Last week when I went grocery shopping I bought the dc, wait for it, cocoa pops
Not only that, but the door to the lounge 'which must always be kept shut' is now wide open - seriously! - and there's no one even in the lounge at the moment! How sad though that I consider these small actions a daring deed on my behalf....

So, day 2 of 'assault by flowers' and the second bunch arrived with much the same message. Delivery man was a little confused by my reaction I think.
This time, before the habit mechanism kicked in, I ran straight to the lap top and googled emotional abuse. No where did it say a bunch of flowers would compensate for years of horrible behaviour from your h. Obviously he read differently. Then again, he has never acknowledged my use of the word 'abuse', still likes to call it 'neglect'. Like, I neglected to put the bins out, I neglected to feed the cat, I neglected to treat my wife as an equal human being for 17 years, consider her feelings, understand that she may not be to blame for everything and was therefore not my personal slave.....

Unlikely, I have to keep reminding myself about that 'spectrum' thing. I remember when I first read the list of NPD traits or behaviours. I found ex h exhibited some behaviours in a very obvious way, like the sense of entitlement, arrogant, haughty attitude. I also believed that he did have empathy however, just not towards me. Then when I thought about it, I realised that because of his work in residential care, he had read an awful lot about behaviours and responses, and was infact, probably faking it. Infact it is now clear to me that he has no empathy for his dc, as was proven when he told ds that he was being 'forced to leave etc'
Some traits are obvious, others are there but in a more hidden way. There are also, as you say, traits from other PD's; Borderline PD and Obsessive Compulsive being relevent to my ex. If I ever have doubts that I may be wrong in my assessment of him I only have to think about how long he stayed living with me, being unable to forgive me, constantly criticising, blaming, punishing, treating me like his slave, when he could infact have left at any time if life with me was so awful. He stayed because he fed off of me. I gave him excellent N supply. No 'normal' man would have remained living with a woman he so openly despised for so many years. At least, not without trying to resolve the problems, or even showing some emotional bond was there at times. I feel like I have been living with a goaler who was forced to stay with me, but showed no emotion in order to remain detached. Where is the human warmth in that?
I craved some form of positive human contact from him, that is why I submitted to his almost daily need for sex, at least there was some physical contact!
My whole relationship with this man was disordered. My parents had a crap marriage so I had no good example to compare it too. I kept hoping things would change - for years and years! you have to admire my staying power! And when they didn't, I resigned myself to the fact that I had damaged the relationship beyond repair, had damaged my h's faith in humankind and was therefore obligated to stay and meet his needs forevermore.
How warped is that?

Sometimes Im really sure H has the N disorder then other days Im sure he just has "learned" N traits. Id have to be 110% sure before I left while the kids are still young. If I divorced legitimately I would def lose the kids. THe fathers get to keep the kids here (raised by the MILs) under the premise that only they can support the children financially. Secondly, if I did a runner back to the UK Id literally have nowhere to go. NO family at all. My mother and father are far more frightening and dangerous than my husband (my mother has already threatened me with "the courts" to get "access" to my DD based on God knows what fabrication. She works in the mental health field so Im sure 'authorities' would find her very plausable). Thirdly, being a normal person, I wouldnt want to separate a father from their kids unless I felt I really had to.
I have to also consider to what extent the emotionlessness my H exhibits is part of his culture (Japan). It is VERY difficult living like this, but Im just grateful every day that Ive broken away from my raging N mother who was on a mission to destroy me. H is not like that- he has been genuinely supportive over my writing successes and in other ways (first thing he did when I married him was get me a car so I could work).
Sorry to hijack, therealme. I hope I`M not a N by talking about myself so much like this! GOd, its all so confusing..

Listen to that radio prog again sakura. The psychologist woman clearly says that if you think, consider, consciously wonder if you have a disorder like sociopathy (and thereby NPD) you definitely do not have it.

I know my ex fleetingly considered that he did, but he then dismissed the thought and did the 'N-istic' trick of all - the disappearing act; he abandoned us, leaving his partner (me) at her most vulnerable (penniless and with a baby).

Also, therealme, (and the rest of us) remember the projection thing (I do know what it's like to keep going back over and over the marriage and thinking 'god, was it me and he was in fact lovely and I was the mad shit??') What I mean is, I think some of them manage, somehow, to project their weird tics onto their partner and their partner can't see (but I could subconsciously feel) that they are turning into the dark and nasty side of their N.

In my case, here is an example: he would not engage in an argument - he would stay completely silent etc til I got mad with anger and shouted at him. He would often turn away and walk slowly upstairs and get into bed leaving me utterly impotent with rage. On a couple of occasions I ran up after him and pulled the bed covers back and he would curl up into a little foetal ball, quivering and looking scared as if I was going to hit him. I never did of course as I just don't have an ounce of violence in me (though I bloody felt like hitting him!)

Well,in the turmoil of the first few weeks/months after he had vanished, I chastised myself over and over, for being horrid to him, for frightening him, for having a mad rage.

But now, I see the truth: I do not have a mad rage, he does - it was inside him raging at me silently. It was goading and provoking me. As a counsellor (a highly qualified and wonderful psychologist) pointed out sensibly, - if he had truly been afraid that I was going to attack him, he would not have walked deliberately and slowly away from me with his back turned...he would have run like fuck. HOW TRUE! Simple when it's pointed out to you.

He was just silently and very ingeniously projecting all his shit onto me. He must have bloody despised me towards the end. But he kept up his N appearance of being Mr Nice. Just because. Because why? Don't know. Because it was all part of his madness I suppose. We do not need to know the answers to all of it! Hurrah!

That's just one example of his projection.
Realme, interesting that he made you his 'slave:' there is always nagging or cajoling or slavery in these relationships with Ns somewhere. Mine pretended to be MY slave, but in fact he did so little and I had to 'nag' him....down to the point of ALWAYS leaving all the drawers open in the bedroom and stuff hanging out of them...I eventually asked him PLEASE to shut the ruddy drawers (as though I had OCD ffs ). I felt like a nagging harridan. But he was faking the drawers nuttery to drive me into that role.

I bet he shuts the drawers in his big house in bangland! He will start being a farting, lazy, lying shit to his girlfriend after a while.

jeez what a ramble. It is all so fascinating though.

realme, he is making a right plonker of himself to keep on with the assault-by-flowers. With his ravenous need for sex, he will hopefully find another lady victim/source soon. Until then, keep leaving doors open and painting everything lilac. And hugging your DCs and smiling to them. Tell them knock-knock jokes if you know any . x

Realme, how wonderful to hear of your rebellion.
UA - you are right, it IS fascinating.

UnlikelyAmazon is right - if your x works in the care industry, predominantly female, I think he will have another gf as soon as he calms down a bit.

Don't give him an inch, not even a flicker in your face that might make him think you are wavering in your resolve.

My x has a new gf, and things have been a lot easier since then, he hasn't the energy or the focus to be pointless arsey to me anymore. ALthough he's still very far from obliging!!! But it is like another weight coming off when they move on to their next victim.

Somebody said to me recently, would you try and warn her?! good God no. Sorry. That's not a problem I can take on board!

Sakura omg, you are trapped between a rock and a nightmare hardplace. If you did come back to the UK you could get help, women's aid are advertised inside the toilet doors at Gatwick.

therealme, the language you are using now is so strong- just compare your previous post to your first post. You have absolutely made your decision and are going through with it, which is more than many people will ever do.

MaggieLeo, thanks for recognizing my rock and a nightmare situation. BUt its only really a nightmare if my DH turns out to be a true narcissist, which Im <span class="italic">honestly</span> not sure if he is. What I mean by this is if it turns out that all the warmth and emotions Ive felt with him in the past turn out to be fake- that he is empty inside- then its bad and I will go to Gatwick and check the toilet doors! But I donT think Im in denial when I say I don`t think he has it too bad. He def has the traits (but by GOd, you should see his family!) but I think there is someone authentic there inside him.

Spills! Exnh would go nuts about spills. When he left, one of the DCs accidentally knocked a glass over at the table and everyone held their breath as usual, but as soon as they realised no-one was going to go ballistic they all looked so happy I knew the split was well worth it I think part of the whole inability of Ns to deal calmly with the little things that happen out of the blue with children is that they spend almost all their time living purely inside their own little mental fantasy land, and only notice reality all around them when something falls and breaks or the DCs start yelling at each other and the noise breaks through the thick clouds of self-adoration or whatever. Hence the berserk reactions -- people have interrupted the flow of thought. A personal affront! The parallel universe has been forced to acknowledge there is intelligent and insistent life going on elsewhere...
As I'm reading this thread, I'm checking off all the traits including the family lines thing. And I have a clear memory of asking him during an argument "What do you want me for?" I couldn't figure out what he saw in me, if I was such a completely useless wife. Well, I know now. Interestingly, he has now attached himself, parasite that he is, to someone else.

DO you know her? Is she kind of vulnerable?? or will he back her into a corner and make her vulnerable.

I was never an obvious door mat (although I was on the rebound from a serious lost love and a broken heart, so there's my answer).

I'd be so curious as to personality of new gf

The new gf is not personally known to me, but what I know about her is that she is divorced, a bit older than exNH, and involved in theatre to some extent, which is interesting to me because one of the things exNH complained about was the dullness of our family life. I was too busy with children, cooking, laundry, etc., to even have time to pick my nose, but he found it all so dull... So now he is off to the theater, enjoying the local restaurant scene, and having a smashing time with all the fab new friends who have not yet seen through him. My N exH was a bit Borderline in some respects, especially in the area of sexual identity (a whole nother can of worms...), so I strongly suspect the new gf was attractive because she provides access to a world which is pretty gay. But this is a whole different area from the N behaviour, which exH had/has in bucketfuls.

Interesting. Again.

Ns often reinvent themselves totally when they move on. So perhaps your xh's new persona Math, is the out-going, slightly effeminate (which his gf might read as 'in touch with his feminine side') 'la-di-da-darlink-didn't-I-see-you-propping-up-the-bar-at-the-Old-Vic-last-Saturday??' type?

My xh has adopted a new language ffs - it's all 'man' 'yo' 'cool' and 'dude.' He told someone in an email that he was 'a bit ting-tong' about what happened with me! Fucking hilarious phrase now but I was very upset when I read it last year.

'A bit ting-tong' ?? ffs, wanker. I wonder how ds will react if he reads that when he's old enough to know the truth.

His language went all American. He joined facebook. He started shagging minors and then set up home with a young girl (sex on tap). All part of the new persona. A totally new one from his old persona with me - the family man, the educated, tie-wearing bookworm who loved Shakespeare, history, Radio 4, the Archers in particular, the Observer on a Sunday, a decent English pub lunch, bacon and eggs, roast beef, driving around in his big car and showing off his expensive shirts, the respectable teacher and father of three, the estate-car driving...blah blah blah. You get the picture.

When he went to bangland he bought a powerful motorbike ffs. In the 7 years I was with him he never mentioned bikes and I never knew him to ride a skateboard let alone a motorbike.

He is the one that has gone 'a bit ting-tong' (oo, just a quick thought - he will, of course, have picked that line up from one of his new american buddies and just spouted it. Like they do)

He just abandoned his old persona and created a whole new one. But he is still the same thieving shagging lying pervert underneath. Twil out in the end.

They are amusing little dangerous bastards really. But I think - like vampires - once you have stuck your wooden stake in, they just disappear. That wooden stake btw is metaphorical - it's the stake of total ambivalence and disinterest in them - ie, when you are over the pain and they are just annoying wasps to swat.

Therealme I do so hope you don't mind us all using your thread to discuss this all. It's really helpful and interesting. But we are here always to give you support too....I mean, I hope you are getting something insightful from all our ramblings!!

xx

Hey, Unlikely, I am thrilled this thread is home to so many ex N survivors! One thing I have learned through reading all your posts, is that you are all such strong, witty, intelligent and normal, normal, normal women!!
I can relate so much to what you all say. I find startling likenesses between your ex Nh's and my own, between the endurance tests you went through when married, and the utter ridiculousness of how these men lived their lives. All of this information adds to my growing awareness that I was not the chaotic, disorganised, forgetful, inconsiderate loser that ex h has led me to believe I was.
I stayed with him for a long time thinking, at first, I had a duty to make things better. At the time, I believed it was because I was committed and of a determined nature. Now I see my misplaced loyalty as a sign of how strong a character I really am. I took everything h threw at me for years and years, and survived! Not only that, but on learning about PD's properly for the first time, I managed to turn my life around within the space of a few weeks. It tells me now that I am not the weak, indecisive and needy person that h made me out to be, but still have some kind of spark left to have done what I did.

Anyway, enough of the self praise, I might start having feelings of grandiosity, and we all know where that can lead....

No more flowers today TG. Instead I am being baited with offers of money...for the dc and Christmas, you understand... It is, and always has been, about money with my ex h. Money gives him power, especially over me as I have none; he made sure of that.
I am going to write a parenting plan as my dc are still young and ex h will use his 'need' to see the dc as a way to retain a link with my life. There will come a day when I will do something to piss him off and I want to have a plan to refer to regarding the dc that does not involve having to communicate with him. It's funny to think that during my marriage h was always the one to plan everything so meticulously in order to avoid 'any nasty surprises' (he writes his monthly budgets a year in advance). Now I am the one who is thinking ahead in order to avoid any nasty surprises from him. And there will probably be plenty...

therealme you sound such a bright and sorted person. And my goodness, strong, competent, industrious and clear-headed. All the things your H would like to be in fact but isn't and never will be.

Yes, there will be times to come probably when the pendulum swings and you will be floundering and needing support. But that is only to be expected. You will pick yourself up again...those times will pass as you will come out the other side again. And each time you will be more able to deal with any nastiness or miserable moments next time etc.

Yes yes yes you are so right about seeing now that you have huge strength of character to have survived those years. I put up with an inordinate amount of shit from my H. I hit such rock bottom when he disappeared last year leaving me hugely in debt and with a 6 month-old, that I honestly thought I was going to die. But I have picked myself up (with the massive help of MNetters and great RL friends) and started my little business, the baby is thriving, I have made new friends, sorted the crap with the bank, have never missed a bill payment and am just getting on with life as best I can.

I don't know what to suggest about his offering you money - I would quite possibly take it, as he is going to have to give you maintenance anyway and what have you got to lose? Taking financial support for the DCs now is not going to change anything in the future iyswim. It doesn't put him in a 'stronger' position re courts etc.

keep going and keep posting lovely and I think the parenting plan to avoid surprises is a good idea - even if because for now it gives you that very important sense of remaining in control of your own life. x

The thing I can't get my head around, can't even imagine, is that for all these years I have been very little other than 'supply' to my h. I have feelings. I put myself in my familys shoes and imagine how THEY would be feeling. It is as natural as breathing to me to consider the feelings of those around me. Naturally for all these years I asumed my h did that too, and that is why I tried so hard to repair any damage I had done to our relationship.
I know what 'selfishness' means - I can relate to that feeling myself at times, expect we can all be a little selfish on certain subjects. But this cold, unemotional detachment that can go on for years and years really confuses me. What I have learned recently from others is that my h's interaction with me (and all those close to him) is an act. That he is faking it. It explains why I thought I had found my 'soul mate' when I met him, and why, as unimpulsive as I am, we married within 3 months of meeting. I realise he was probably reflecting back what he was seeing in me, so I really married a reflection of my own personality. Talk about the biggest con.
It is very, very difficult having lived with someone for so long, given birth to their babies, shared my inner-most secrets with, made love to and believed I would spend the rest of my life with, to now try to get my head around the notion that HE never felt the way I did - actually probably never felt at all! That it was all a sham, I never knew this man at all.
That is what is making this split so hard for me right now. Not his abusive behaviour - I'm well rid of that - and am revelling in the freedom of doing what I want, going where I want, without having any constraints. But I cannot comprehend the idea that the man I thought I knew so well.....is not. Maybe I am in denial? Actually, yes, I think I probably am.

I continue to read all I can about NPD. I know it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things - abuse is abuse! I didn't even realise I was being abused until I spoke out about my life. But the more I read and learn, the more incredulous my whole married life becomes. It is shocking in the extreme to me, like I said, the biggest con job I ever had the misfortune to experience. Really shocking.

I think the thing about these people is that they actually believe their own reality. So while it seems like an act to normal people, especially once they are "rumbled", in actual fact they will be believing themselves to be the misunderstood blameless victims of the person that they have mistreated for so long.
According to his own understanding, he has treated you entirely properly and if he realises that maybe he has done some wrong things, it will be because you drove him to it, so it's not his fault.

The trouble with normal people is that this is pretty much impossible to understand until you have had experience of an N - they will make allowances for them, blame themselves, convince themselves that nothing awful is going on because they just can't believe the alternative. Whereas the N carries on blithely not knowing or caring that they are so destructive in their self-absorbed fantasy world.
Instead of beating yourself up, congratulate yourself that you have seen the truth. Some people never do and stay complicit in the lies.

Message withdrawn

"According to his own understanding, he has treated you entirely properly and if he realises that maybe he has done some wrong things, it will be because you drove him to it, so it's not his fault. "

Oh god Katisha, you don't know how true this is!!

What is so hard for me right now is the knowledge that I was so unaware, for so long. All the pain and anguish I have been through. All the deep searching inside myself to try to understand what was it about me that made me such a fuck up as a person. I have spent countless hours alone and in psychotherapy analysing every detail of my childhood, my essence as a human being, trying to figure out why it was that I didn't function like any other woman. Why I was so incompetent on a daily basis. I had written myself off. Had believed that I was damaged, flawed and relient on this man to survive.
My history for the last 17 years has been determined by a man who was not real; who was not in a position to lecture or guide me about who I was or am.
He has had exclusive influence over my life and as a result has sucked me into his false world. Yes! I am feeling floored by it all right now!

And what's worse, he is still controlling me.
He is in constant contact around arranging to see the dc. He comes to the house because he can't bring them to his mothers. He takes a bath, asks me to 'trim his ear hair', has a nap - on my bed - helps himself to food. When he cooked tea for the dc yesterday I went upstairs because I had things to do, so he had the gall to ask me if I found his 'looking after the dc' usefull so I could do what I had to do. I had to point out that he was here for the dc, and not to do me a favour. He has decided to give me money for Christmas but this involved getting a loan application in on time, so guess who collected the form and delivered it?
I am still being drawn into the daily planning and executing of his life.
I need to cut myself loose to have any chance of ever freeing myself.
But I also want this split to have minimal impact on my dc.
He seems to be able to suck me in so easily.

realme - my experience of narcs has been that at some point, when they are no longer getting supply from you, they completely cut themselves off - so I hope for you that this will happen. It's such a short time since you insisted on change, if you can keep strong he will go elsewhere for supply. It's hard too, in a way, to be cut off, and makes me think, did all those years count for nothing, but it is also a blessed relief.

On a more trival note as to what narcs are - I am reading Behary's book at the moment and she mentions a client's "many pairs of loafers". That really struck a chord for me as both my long term narcs were mad for shoes. These days I say that I will never be with a man who has more pairs of shoes than me! :-)

Realme, like you I still struggle with how little I mattered, but not seeing him definitely helps the healing process.
I think I may have been "cut off" as anAuntie says. It has been six days since I heard from my Ex-N. I would not meet him as he requested (ha! As if!) so he has flounced. Well...I can hope!

Some scattered thoughts --
The reinvention of Ns as they weave their way into and out of other people's lives may be due to being completely empty inside? They use people who are real like a vampire would -- you feel literally as if you're having the life sucked out of you, and in the end when you've become aware of just what it going on, it gets so hard and nerve wracking to deal with them. The 'wallpaper variety' stress that we get used to goes away when we separate, but each new occasion of contact makes our adrenaline flood us again.
As to the realisation that a NH didn't ever have real feelings for their DWs -- this for me was the hardest part, the feeling that my precious, one-and-only life had been stolen, and knowing I would never get those years and all the choices I once had back again. Now I am slowly coming to see that what I can salvage is still my life and it's up to me to make the most of it: scary perhaps but empowering too (on a good day anyway).
Therealme, try to get a separation agreement together that will spell out exactly how he may contact you (i.e. no phoning, texting or casually showing up at your home, just e-mailing; no gifts; money a stipulated amount to be paid to you by post on certain dates; visitation of the DCs only on certain days and times). You have court orders and you could argue you want to prevent harassment by him. Try to get out of Ireland and back to your own turf. I sincerely hope you did not trim his ear hair? He has some neck to ask you for any personal grooming after everything that has happened. Keep on raining your consciousness and developing a thick skin. The more you know about what you're dealing with, the more power you have.

That's 'raising' not raining..ooops

Ramblings- feel free to ignore!

YEs its mind-boggling isnt it. Its true about them adapting different personas because they have no real persona themselves. I have to say, I used to do this, but I didnT have ulteriour motives: more like I wanted different groups of people to like me, I think. I def have N traits and this is frightening to me. OR maybe I donT have N traits but I simply have lots of Ns in my life. For example, this week I have reached breaking point with a "friend". I have analyzed and analyzed the strange goings-on and weirdness and wondering whether its me or her. But the fact is that the other day I went to meet her and as I got out of the car I felt this sort of butterflies/adrenaline in my gut. At that moment, I knew the friendship was over. SO I may very well cut contact or substantially reduce it. But this "cutting" people out is actually a N thing to do, isnT it??!? IT all makes my head hurt.
And as I was reading about N mothers using their children for supply, I think, GOd how do I know whether the feelings I have for my DD are good or not. FOr example, if I bask in the compliments about her cuteness or something. Thats N supply, isn`t it?

My MIL is a narcissist (diagnosed by me), but what if its me? THats why Im scared to cut contact with MIL completely because what if its me and I deprive my kids of a grandmother because <span class="italic">Im fucked up! ALthough, I have already seen her try to use DD for her own emotional needs, for example when we went to dinner last week DD wanted to sit by me and MIL tried to put a guilt trip on her (WTF!- shes 2) by saying things like " I dont see you very often do I" (hidden messages sent to me)

My personal observation is that female narcissists tend to have a more than average amount of children (not the other way round: I donT think women with lots of children are narcissists) THe reason for this is clearly because they derive their N supply. My mother had five children. She clearly hated<span class="line-through">no <span class="italic">loathed</span></span> me and I was her firstborn so I was always confused as to why she went on to have another four, whilst unnecessarily working full-time. NOw I understand that she thought it made her look special: she has spouted the line "I raised five children while working full-time" so often I cant count. And secondly, you get lots and lots of N supply from children because they are born adoring you.