Husband says it's over, wants custody of DD

[MollFlounders]

I would really appreciate some thoughts on my situation. I've posted a few times recently about DH. There have been issues in the past but things have been particularly rocky since I went back to FT work 3 months ago (DD is now 9 months old). DH has always been quite selfish and inflexible (previous threads on this are here and here) and this has, for me, become more and more difficult to cope with since having to juggle a demanding job and of course DD. Things are at the point where counselling is required. I found a counselling group who will see us each separately and then together in a facilitated session.

So DH and I had yet another row yesterday morning. It was very trivial. I was hosting an event for some clients. DH managed to get his own last minute invitation to the same event (going as a client himself, of another host). I offered to give DH a lift in my work taxi, but on condition we operated on my timing seeing though I had to get there to meet my clients (DH is usually late to everything). DH was very pleased about the lift otherwise he was stuck with a long tube trip. We agreed, I thought, that we would leave the house asap but would absolutely be in the cab by 9am. I was up and ready, having also gotten DD up and ready for her day, by 8.30am. As it happened, my taxi arrived to collect me at 8.40am. DH had gotten up at 8am and proceeded to faff around the house getting himself ready in slow motion. I asked him a few times if it was possible to hurry things along a little as the cab was waiting downstairs with the meter ticking along. He just kept repeating in icy tones "we agreed we would leave at 9. We will leave at 9". So we left at 9.00am on the dot, with me standing around waiting for him in the meantime. In the cab, I expressed my frustration at his inflexibility and I said that I didn't feel it was normal to be so incredibly rigid. He basically said "if you want normal, you're with the wrong person. I'm not normal."

I didn't see DH again last night as he went out with a friend after the event and came home late. This morning, he was monosyllabic. I reminded him that he needed to call the counsellor for his separate session. DH said "there's no point going to a counsellor unless you tell me that your behaviour yesterday morning was totally unacceptable and will never be repeated again". Apparently I was relentless in my nagging and this is totally unacceptable and tantamount to treating him with contempt. After all, I know he hates being rushed in the mornings.

DH then asked me if I want custody (I know it's residence) of DD and I said absolutely. Asked him what he wants, he says he wants custody. She is 9 months old. We have a daily nanny but I do everything for DD outside of that. A family lawyer has told me that it seems clear that I'm the primary caregiver and that I could move out with her if the marriage ends. My main priority in all of this is DD's happiness and stability.

I guess I've got two questions. Does the situation with DH sound hopeless? I feel we're at the make or break point but I'd go through counselling if there was a chance of it working. But if he's saying counselling is pointless then can you make it work?? Other question: what do people do with residence and contact when it comes to small babies? How often would be reasonable for DH to see DD and how do you do this (e.g. him coming to my place)??

The change is that I am not doing an housework or cooking now. He is doing it all. I'm not really getting in a battle of semantics with you Dittay, I find him "helpful", you call it what you want.

Counselling, alone, can assist couples in abusive relationships, as the counsellor explained to me.

At the end, of the day, OP has a child with her DH and they need to find someway of having an ongoing relationship to parent that child. Whether it is by way of counselling, advice from mumsnet, reading books, family support. Whatever works for them.

Whilst OH is, understandably, very upset with DH's behaviour, he will always be her DD's daddy and hopefully he will step up to the plate and be a good one.

Actually the most useful take home message I got from counselling (not about marriage difficulties - it was around having a disabled child and the extended family/friend dynamics that go with that) is that sometimes when someone repeatedly behaves completely unreasonably in a very obvious ongoing way - you cannot do anything to change that behaviour. That person would have to a) recognise that they are being unreasonable- which if they're a narcissist is unlikely and b) want to change and c) take action to change. All very unlikely. All you can do is change the effect it has on you.

Really good post Saintly. I think that was what I was trying to get at. You examine your behaviour in response to theirs (ie reaction) and change or modify it if you can.

That can mean examing whether you want to stay with the person anymore (your usual behavioural response to them) and changing it by leaving if you think that is the correct thing to do for you.

As OP can't totally cut off from DH because of DH, she may have to examine and modify her behaviour or reactions in the future. Ie by telling him that she will not accept him acting in a way that she previously has and that there will be consequences in her actions if he does.

What the counsellor explained to me was that only you can be in charge of you. You can't stop people acting in a certain way or force them to change. However, the change in your behaviour may cause a change in theirs. If not, then the ultimate change in your behaviour may be to stop accepting a situation and leave.

A big part of my counsellor's point though was that some people are so damaged they will not change. They can't because they don't recognise how unreasonable they are let alone have the willingness to put in the work to find out why they behave the way they do.

I wouldn't be comfortable with someone changing to suit a controlling man.

Agree dittany.

If he is not going to change,then OP needs to leave - as I have said in my earlier posts. However, are we the people to decide whether he is abusive or not rather than a very difficult man with emotional issues who may or may not be able to sort these out. Even if he can, maybe OP has had enough and wants to go.

I think it is highly unlikely that just because OP leaves, her DH is going to suddenly start reacting towards her in a respectful and helpful manner in terms of parenting her DD. That being the case, if possible, they need to find a way to work together to do that as legally, it does not appear that the OP would have grounds for excluding DH from DD's life. Family mediation (as opposed to counselling) may help with that. She is not going to be able to walk out the door and never see the man again whether SHE decides he is abusive or not therefore she needs to find a way of dealing with that and dealing with him. That is not an unreasonable thing to say and she will be expected to do that legally.

Slightly off point, I have not turned myself in to a semi-invalid. I decided that I wanted to go on the diet for me. DP was not really that keen but said he would support me if that made me happy, which he has done.

Naturally, for the first week of the diet, you do feel a bit tired and sorry for yourself as you can't eat. Hence lots of nice long baths and early nights. Lots of people (men and women) do the Cambridge diet and other similar diets and feel shit for the first week. Just because their partner supports them, does not make them abusive or otherwise unsupportive.

The point of my earlier post was that sometimes, when couples find something that they can mutually support each other on and get positive feedback from the other partner on, this can help their relationship.

'when couples find something that they can mutually support each other on and get positive feedback from the other partner on, this can help their relationship. '

that kind of advice can prove dangerous and even downright deadly for someone involved in an abusive relationship, because usually an abusive partner will only give what he/she determines is positive feedback when everything is going on his/her terms.

I agree that you do have to distinguish between a difficult phase between two basically reasonable people and a relationship with an abusive person. I'd never heard the term emotional abuse before MN but I know what they are referring to. There are people who can demoralise and demean in ways that sound ridiculous when they're described. In this case, his pomposity about needing an apology is a bit OTT.

I agree that you do have to distinguish between a difficult phase between two basically reasonable people and a relationship with an abusive person. I'd never heard the term emotional abuse before MN but I know what they are referring to. There are people who can demoralise and demean in ways that sound ridiculous when they're described. In this case, his pomposity about needing an apology is a bit OTT.

err....as far I am aware he is only "allegedly" being emotionally/verbally abusive.

My comments are related to the OP only and I really don't think that trying to establish some kind of ongoing relationship whether apart or together for the sake of DD by way of a family mediation/counsellor is going to be "deadly"?!!

Clearly, if somebody was being physically abused or was at risk of that then going to counselling to re-establish a relationship as partners and finding mutually suportive ways of trying to do that is not really very sensible but then that is not what I said.

From what I can see, the view seems to be that OP should leave her husband immediately as he is verbally/emotionally abusive and then what? Never see him again to prevent having to deal with anymore of his unacceptable behaviour? That wont work if DH wants to see DD or insists on exercising his legal rights to see her. He will no doubt use emotional blackmail, stonewalling, passive aggression in that on-going parental relationship too. He is not suddenly going to stop acting like that because OP leaves him!

OP needs help (and so does he actually) so that they can communicate with each other what ever happens going forward. Family mediation or appropriate counselling can help with that.

It is very easy to tell OP to leave DH but she is bound to him for life because of DD. Particulary when DD is little, they need to co-parent. They need help to do that.

Hi everyone, sorry I'm only posting now- I've been out. I need to go back and read all the posts since late last night. I just thought I'd quickly post an update. This morning I got up, got DD up as per usual. DH appeared about half an hour later, just as I was about to give DD her breakfast. He asked if he could feed her and did. He was speaking in monotone/monosyllables and not looking at me or engaging with me at all.

After he had given DD her bottle I said that I was really glad he wanted to give counselling a go and that as we were going to do that maybe we should try and be nice to each other. It sounds pointed typed out like that, but it wasn't at all. DH sort of sniggered and said that "engaging in small talk" was pointless as he never knew when I was going to suddenly inflict on him the type of behaviour I had exhibited during the taxi incident. He was talking as if he was living in fear that suddenly he would be subjected to my awful and unpredictable behaviour. I asked him to expand a bit on what he'd meant about wanting "the old Moll back" and not liking the new one. He said that I used to be loving and gentle and kind, and now I was cold and acted like a robot when it came to work. He said I had become a monster. He started talking about the taxi incident again, talking very slowly and quietly but deliberately and forcefully saying things like "you laid into me", you "relentlessly nagged me over and over again", "you continually criticised me". We're talking about an incident that took place over, at most, 15 or 20 minutes in which I asked him a couple of times if he could get ready a little quicker. When I said that, he laughed at me and said I just couldn't see the truth and that's why counselling wouldn't help us. He said he'd go to counselling but didn't see the point- he has done a lot of reflection in the last few months and knows exactly what is going on. He said that he thought that in a few years I would look back on all this and realise I'd made a huge mistake.

I was in a nervous state by the end of this conversation. He was talking at me in such a slow, repetitive and intense (but quiet) way that I felt my head was about to burst. I had planned to meet my mum (who is in London for a few weeks, not staying with us) for lunch so I got DD and myself ready quickly and left the house. DH didn't really speak to me again or ask where I was going. Once I was outside, I called an old friend from home who I haven't spoken to for ages. I needed to speak to someone who knew me well. I told her what was going on (she doesn't really know DH). She said that her DH had had the odd disgruntled moment about the fact that she seemed to have so much love for their DCs but sometimes didn't show him much attention. However she felt what I was describing was extreme. The first thing she said was that it sounded like DH felt he had lost control of the relationship and was desperately trying to grab it back. I felt better after I'd spoken to her. Before I called her I was feeling so overwhelmed by DH that I felt uncertain about myself. I don't think I'm a monster and I am generally a warm and loving person.

(Sorry this is so long)

I knew that DH was meeting a group of mutual friends for a late lunch today and that I should make an appearance at that. So after I spent some time with mum, I went over to the place I knew DH was. DH was, as usual, the life of the party, kicking back in a beer garden having a good laugh with our friends. He treated me normally at lunch and fussed over DD. When we left to go home, DH suggested we stop at one of my favourite shops which is on the way home. He is now lying on the couch watching TV. I'm not sure what to expect next. I feel so exhausted I want to sleep for a million years.

Ps. I am going to a counsellor by myself on Monday

Pps. I am a bit worried about being in a counselling session with DH. He is very eloquent and very practised at arguing/negotiation/persuasion as he does a lot of this in his professional life. He can be quite overwhelming when he is in this mode.

People who love you don't laugh at your worries or fears. They don't demean in that way. When a man who loves you thinks you are being nutty over timing, he thinks, "there she goes again" but it's just part of you. Keep talking to outsiders. That will help you gain some perspective.

I'm sorry moll his behaviour is not remotely normal for a loving couple. I agree with your friend. He sounds quite frightening. I think counselling by yourself is a very good idea.

Dittany, I think you are actually ill-informed in terms of the role of mediation. Particulary when it is appointed by the courts.

Many people have got divorced for similar reasons to OP and the courts have ordered mediation to assist with the co-parenting relationship. I know. I am a solicitor.

OP's DH has not acted in any way which would lead a court to find that he should have no access to his child. He may very well have acted in such a way that OP is granted a divorce - the two tests are not the same.

As I have said before, eventually OP needs to find a way to have some kind of co-parenting relationship with her DH. She will need help to do that.

Been lurking, but I remember your gym thread.

You say in your OP that your main priority is your DD's wellbeing and happiness. DH, on the other hand, freely admits that he puts his own needs before those of DD.

Frankly, the attitude of some of the stepford wives on this thread astounds me.

People on this thread keep telling you to "communicate better" with your DH. But he can go for a week refusing to speak to you. How are you supposed to communicate with him?

I do not think you should do joint counselling. He will spin it and reinforce any notions you may have that you are to blame in this.

You need to lay it on the line with him: You earn a lot more money than he does; you are the main breadwinner; you do and arrange all the childcare; you don't need him. Therefore, he can get his act together, or he can get out.

Your life can only get better at that point because you won't have someone treating you like crap all the time on top of all the responsibilities you are already shouldering.

You hold all the cards here - you have all the power. Use it.

As dittany said, you can't engage with an abuser with discussion and compromise, only by setting very strong boundaries.

Moll - go to counselling on your own. That should help you get some insight in to your relationship and decide how you want to proceed.

Hope all goes well.