Husband says it's over, wants custody of DD

[MollFlounders]

I would really appreciate some thoughts on my situation. I've posted a few times recently about DH. There have been issues in the past but things have been particularly rocky since I went back to FT work 3 months ago (DD is now 9 months old). DH has always been quite selfish and inflexible (previous threads on this are here and here) and this has, for me, become more and more difficult to cope with since having to juggle a demanding job and of course DD. Things are at the point where counselling is required. I found a counselling group who will see us each separately and then together in a facilitated session.

So DH and I had yet another row yesterday morning. It was very trivial. I was hosting an event for some clients. DH managed to get his own last minute invitation to the same event (going as a client himself, of another host). I offered to give DH a lift in my work taxi, but on condition we operated on my timing seeing though I had to get there to meet my clients (DH is usually late to everything). DH was very pleased about the lift otherwise he was stuck with a long tube trip. We agreed, I thought, that we would leave the house asap but would absolutely be in the cab by 9am. I was up and ready, having also gotten DD up and ready for her day, by 8.30am. As it happened, my taxi arrived to collect me at 8.40am. DH had gotten up at 8am and proceeded to faff around the house getting himself ready in slow motion. I asked him a few times if it was possible to hurry things along a little as the cab was waiting downstairs with the meter ticking along. He just kept repeating in icy tones "we agreed we would leave at 9. We will leave at 9". So we left at 9.00am on the dot, with me standing around waiting for him in the meantime. In the cab, I expressed my frustration at his inflexibility and I said that I didn't feel it was normal to be so incredibly rigid. He basically said "if you want normal, you're with the wrong person. I'm not normal."

I didn't see DH again last night as he went out with a friend after the event and came home late. This morning, he was monosyllabic. I reminded him that he needed to call the counsellor for his separate session. DH said "there's no point going to a counsellor unless you tell me that your behaviour yesterday morning was totally unacceptable and will never be repeated again". Apparently I was relentless in my nagging and this is totally unacceptable and tantamount to treating him with contempt. After all, I know he hates being rushed in the mornings.

DH then asked me if I want custody (I know it's residence) of DD and I said absolutely. Asked him what he wants, he says he wants custody. She is 9 months old. We have a daily nanny but I do everything for DD outside of that. A family lawyer has told me that it seems clear that I'm the primary caregiver and that I could move out with her if the marriage ends. My main priority in all of this is DD's happiness and stability.

I guess I've got two questions. Does the situation with DH sound hopeless? I feel we're at the make or break point but I'd go through counselling if there was a chance of it working. But if he's saying counselling is pointless then can you make it work?? Other question: what do people do with residence and contact when it comes to small babies? How often would be reasonable for DH to see DD and how do you do this (e.g. him coming to my place)??

Hi to Clayhead, Blackduck, warthog, cheerfulvicky, GrapefruitMoon, madeupsurname, NicknameTaken and QoD2009! Thanks for following and continue to post. Everything is still going well. I have to admit, I had a bit of a funny wobble last night where I had some pangs about whether I was being fair to H, given that I've told him that I don't want him to contact me (he hasn't). I was worrying that this must have been very hurtful for him and feeling concerned that he may be so isolated and alone with no-one to support him. For some reason I got caught up in what I thought his perspective must be - "my DW has suddenly moved out, taking my DD with her, and I just can't understand why. I've sent her flowers, offered to take her for a romantic holiday, and not only did she say no: she's actually asked me not to contact her. It's so sad for me, I've lost everything that mattered....." So I went to sleep with that on my mind and woke up feeling a bit glum.

But then zippysmum posted that amazing article this morning! I had missed it on the other thread so thank you so much for linking it here. It is fantastic- so thorough and comprehensive and detailed, giving many more examples and illustrations than some of the other "are you being emotionally abused" checklists I've read. It really is a cracker. Reading the "Ending the Relationship" bit is exactly what I needed. I'm seeing the counsellor again tonight but am keeping that link to remind myself of how things are when I have my guilt pangs strike again. Thank you.

SheWillBeLoved - I have seen your posts over the months and really appreciate your post on this thread. I'm very, very glad for you and your DD that you have exited your situation. You are right about the nights- that's exactly what happened to me last night. Stay strong and enjoy your lovely DD.

Moll, glad to see the fantastic progress you've made since you moved out. Cheers my heart.

FWIW, when I get phone calls from people I don't want to listen to but can't hang up on, I just get comfy and read a book. That way, they don't upset me as I don't hear them.

Moll, glad to see the fantastic progress you've made since you moved out. Cheers my heart.

FWIW, when I get phone calls from people I don't want to listen to but can't hang up on, I just get comfy and read a book. That way, they don't upset me as I don't hear them.

Thanks Jux, it's nice to hear from you. Hope all is ok with you.

Thanks Moll. It's a bit difficult and we're rather but we'll be OK (eventually).

Moll, I am so pleased to read that you are now in your new home with your dd.
You seem so much stronger now than you did at the beginning of your thread.
Do you know that yesterday was the last time this century the date was in single figures. A good omen, imo, your life is never going to be the same again, its just going to become the life you and your dd deserve, calm and peaceful.

Hi Moll, just wanted to say that although the time is passing and you are getting more settled in your new life, we are still here, thinking of you and wishing you a lot of happiness in the future.

No need for you to update if you don't feel like it, but remember you are not on your own

Thanks siouxsie and OrangeFish for checking in. I liked your good omen siouxsie, I hope it holds out!

It's great to know you are still all out there, thank you. After the initial elation at leaving, I've been in a bit of a low spot for the last week or so - I've been stuck in a mental rut going over and over some of the things that happened, feeling slightly overwhelmed by the prospect of being a single FT WOHM and feeling a bit anxious and upset as DD's first birthday approaches. Anyway, I know it will pass. It's almost like a bit of a delayed reaction. So I'm seeing the counsellor and just taking things one day at a time.....

Hello Moll!
I've been wondering about you and how you were doing. Sorry to hear you're going through a trough of sorts. I'm sure you will start to feel more positive soon. Its great you have your counsellor. Have you been exploring and resources on MN and beyond for single parents?
My mum was a single parent and she did a great job, obviously as I am fab heh, kidding. Seriously, it is hard work, but the reward is all the better. You have done a difficult thing and its only natural you feel a bit knocked for six, still.
Remember how strong and amazing you are! x

Hi Moll, still here and thinking of you. Stay strong, you are doing great

Hi Moll - glad to hear you are okay. Of course it is daunting finding out you are now a single mum (though from what you have said I suspect that in a way you always were...). You can do it, take it one day at a time and think about what is important. Of course, you will go back over stuff, thats what makes us all human, you can't invest time and energy in something and then just forget about it. Each mile stone (birthdays, anniversary, Christmas) will be a marker, but make them a marker of how far you have come.
Good luck - thinking of you.

Hello, me again..... Thanks Blackduck, CheerfulVicky and Macherie for checking back.

I wonder if anyone can bear to give me some objective views on the latest round of Flounderdom. So: things with H have been dormant for a few weeks. I haven't heard from him, as I requested, and there has been no move by him towards joint counselling.

Anyway, I decided through my own counselling last week that I wanted to meet H on my terms and tell him that I'd now identified his behaviour as emotional abuse- it felt important as part of my recovery process: naming his behaviour for what it is etc etc. So I met H yesterday. Ahead of the meeting I wrote him a long letter describing my experience of the way he'd acted towards me, naming it as emotional abuse, describing the impact it has had on me (loss of confidence, anxiety, isolation, counselling, being prescribed ADs etc). I handed H the letter and asked him to read it. I didn't expect anything from him; it was about my process not his reaction.

So H reads the letter slowly, puts it down, looks at me and says he agrees with everything in it. He said he was horrified by his behaviour towards the person who is his wife and best friend, that he loves me more than anything, and that he is deeply and truly sorry. He said he'd do anything to fix it or make up for it. He said he was shocked and disgusted at himself for the severity of the impact on me. He said he now recognised that he'd basically "lost it" over the last few years, hated that part of himself, didn't even feel it was really him and that it was like a cancer he wants to cut out. He was begging me to consider joint counselling. I wasn't going to be bounced into anything so I said I'd think about it.

The one bit that niggled me was him mentioning at one point that he thought there was a problem in the dynamic between us. That annoyed me because I want him to take responsibility for how he has behaved, not look to me as partly responsible. We didn't really resolve that because I didn't want a long discussion at this meeting.

So now I don't know what to do. I really didn't expect that reaction from him. Would you buy it or not?

Moll, Hi, would I buy it? frankly - no. All sounds to sudden and I wouldn't go for the joint counselling at this stage either. If you want to try again then I would want HIM to go to conselling on his own first. The dynamic thing to me says I am only like this because of something YOU did/do. This just feels like another strategy in a long running game....

He probably is sorry. I just don't think he'll change. What happens if he loses it again?

You've come so so far. I wouldn't even consider couples therapy until he has had some serious counselling by himself to work through why he thinks/thought it was okay to emotionally destroy his wife and family.

Quite shocking that his first thought was couples therapy to be honest - almost as if he thinks you played a part in what happened and are somehow to blame as well as him.

Thanks Blackduck and SWBL. It does worry me that he seems to think he is ready for joint counselling, bearing in mind that he's had 3 sessions of individual counselling and that was back in July when he was going around saying counselling was a waste of time and he wrapped up his last session early because there was nothing to talk about! However, he says (I know, I know) that he has done a lot of thinking over the last few weeks, has led a very simple life, hasn't been out, hasn't touched a drop of alcohol for 6 weeks and has just been thinking things through....

Perhaps I need to say to him that I couldn't consider joint counselling until I'm satisfied that he has had a serious go at individual counselling. No guarantees on my part though about going through with joint counselling in any event.

I agree completely with Blackduck and SheWill, who have both written wise posts.

He has a lot of work to do on his own with a counsellor.

He cannot be part of a healthy couple because he is an emotional abuser.

Until he owns up to that 100% and does A LOT of work on that, there's no future with him.

Writing it all out was for you and not him.

And yet, as usual, he made it partly your fault, too.

Nope. He's not there.

Please, keep seeing a counsellor to learn how to move on from this.

Moll - What Blackduck, SWBL and Expat said.

No, I wouldn't buy it either. You've been through so much over such a long period of time, that you cannot be expected to recover this quickly.

Yes, he may be sorry, but there's words and words, eh? I had an ex who was always "sorry" but he never did anything to change and he ALWAYS sounded sincere....

You need to keep going with your counselling, keep doing the exercises in order to regain yourself and overall, just "be" for quite a while..... Just "be" to recover your equilibrium, just "be" to get yourself centred again, just "be" to be able to stop being thrown by your ex all the time. And also, just "be" to enjoy your DD

Moll

Would I buy it - short answer here - NO. Such screwed up men always but always say that they're sorry. He to my mind doesn't even know the meaning of the word. Worryingly as well he has taken no real responsibility for his actions but has partly blamed you instead by involving the couple dynamic.

I'd be seriously surprised if he were to do any more counselling at all let alone joint counselling (which I would never advise in your circumstances anyway due to the past abuses at his hands). Joint counselling with him would be a huge error on your part and put you back to beyond square one.

Tbh it just sounds like he's thought 'uh oh, she's written me a letter - I'd better just agree with whatever it says, that will get her on side again'.

Moll - I wouldn't buy it either. It's too soon - you don't read a letter like that from someone and take it all in right away. It's too smooth, too practised.

Any truely decent and caring man would be utterly broadsided to read a letter like that from his wife and the mother of his child, regardless of what had gone wrong between them. He should have needed a period of reflection before he could respond articulately. The fact that he didn't shows that none of it has really phased him at all, and he is going through the motions as part of lulling you into a false belief that he's changed.

I think you would be correct to insist on him having a lot of individual counselling before you will even consider joint counselling with him.

Hi Moll,
You say: "I wasn't going to be bounced into anything so I said I'd think about it."

I just wanted to say that this is an excellent strategy. The more time and space you give yourself before responding, the better.

I agree with the other posters. His suggestion that it's about the dynamic shows that deep down, he really doesn't think it's his fault. If you show the slightest sign of falling for it, he'll snap back into his self-justifying "it's all Moll's fault" faster than you'd think is possible.

Ok, thanks everyone for the responses. It is a bit smooth and sudden isn't it? Considering he had no idea what I was going to say when I asked to meet him - I had just emailed to say that I thought we should talk, so he had no reason to expect a letter like that. He quite rightly pointed out that I looked very sceptical when he told me how much he had changed over the last few weeks.

You're all right: what he should really be doing is going to see his counsellor to discuss my letter with his counsellor so he can work out his true response to it, his responsibility for his own behaviour described in it, and whether he's prepared to change that behaviour. Without going through that process he could never be properly prepared for joint counselling.

My instincts were: beware. But thanks for giving me a wider view.

i went to family therapy jointly with my exP on the basis that they had a programme which was aimed at separated parents.

however, he went in with the belief that this was all about "keeping the fammily together". he never got it. still does not.

still blames me for the woes in his life - which are centred around the fact he does not have a wife and family living with him....

i also went as i knew sessions were recorded and - shoud it come to it - perhaps they could be used in evidence (it isnt clear if they can or cannot but at least i know there is recorded proof of his outbursts at the sessions...)

IF you were to ever go to joint counselling you would need to be very clear on what basis: eg as separated parents working together.

so long as he believes he has changed and can win you back - or believes he can persuade you so - dont do it.

he will manipulate and use the sessions to persuade you even more.... "i am sorry for what happened i promise to be good if she comes back to me..." and regain control of you.