Am I just being petty?

[YouKnowNothingoftheCrunch]

I asked H to move out a couple of weeks ago. I'm 34 weeks pregnant with dc3.

H has been depressed for the last 18 months. He's been having counselling for a year and is on 40mg Citalopram.

He has been diagnosed as Passive Aggressive and has been emotionally abusive towards me for over a year.

My family and friends are very supportive, but all are a long way away. Lately I have had a few comments along the lines of "It's really hard sometimes to see why things are so bad when all the things he does are so small and petty" this is always followed by a disclaimer saying "of course I know things are that bad, but when I think about what you've said later on it just doesn't seem such an issue".

So I'm beginning to worry that maybe I am blowing it out of all proportion.

I have supported him completely (and alone apart from medical professionals) for 18 months. In that time he has blamed me for all his problems on a regular basis, told me not to be sad or cry around him (and by around him I mean hiding in the bathroom where he overheard) because I am making him feel bad and am holding back his progress, has completely emotionally neglected me whilst expecting 100% comfort (which I have given, and has been verbally aggressive and nasty on a regular basis whenever he feels angry or frustrated by anything.

His PA means that he offers the world and delivers only excuses. His current thing is to blame his behaviour on the PA, so that he is not responsible for it.

He has stopped taking his medication on occasion (without telling me or his GP or counsellor).

He knows my history of MC and the fact that I was terrified in early pregnancy, and deliberately avoided supporting me or being there for scans. I was also banned from crying and expected to support him and let him be angry with me - which I was not strong enough to do at the time, but did

He told me he wanted me to only be happy around him and that he was happy to help with practical issues in the home but couldn't cope with my developing depression (although I still had to deal with his and was still offering him comfort). Basically he wants a family with none of the emotional responsibility of it. He would sit and get angry with me while I cried.

He lies constantly and casually and has to be prompted to do everything. His depression has not affected his job at all and he is successful in his career.

So much of what he does is so petty - lying about small things which he will definitely be caught out for.

Since he moved out 2 weeks ago (and the point of him moving out was to break the patterns of behaviour we were stuck in and give me some space to get ready for dc3 without his constant draining) he has been behaving like a teenager and avoiding his issues completely. He promised he would put everything into fixing his marriage, he swears he loves me and promises the world (but can't even talk to me when I'm sad), but instead he lied to me about going out (started off saying he wasn't doing anything, then that some mates had arranged to go out for a drink and he went too, then revealed he had arranged a birthday party for himself as he hadn't had one a month ago). He has problems with alcohol (not to mention being on meds) and made me a promise 9 months ago after he was verbally abusive to me and humiliated me in front of all his friends, to never drink more than 2 drinks in a night. This promise he has kept (even when under enormous social pressure) and I was so proud of him for keeping it; until Friday. When he not only got drunk, but planned to get drunk while sober and made arrangements to get home etc.

It seems such a small thing to base breaking a marriage up on, but that promise was the only real thing he has done in the last year to prove he still loves and respects me (his words can't be trusted)

This is not the man I married. This man is selfish and nasty and thinks of nobody but himself. He is completely unwilling to take responsibility for his actions and is still trying to blame me for everything.

I'm starting to really hate him. And I can't cope with being told I am petty on top of it

Unless of course it is true, and I am being petty... in which case I do need to know.

I love him and want my best friend back. I still hope he'll wake up one day and that self-pitying leech will be gone. I am so angry with him now. Feel like I've wasted 10 years.

Right! I am smiling and determined

I'm going to hold on to this feeling if it kills me!

Sounds good. I was originally going to take the counsellor a printed off thing about PA and say that was my DP, word for word. But I chickened out I wish so much I had, I wish I had explained better. He just used the sessions against me in the end, like others have said, counsellors expect both people to take 50% responsibility for problems, andfor solving them. I don't think that's appropriate for your situation.

I think if you are going to try not to be drawn into his little traps and games etc, going to Relate with him is a bit risky as it sort of gives the impression you are 'playing along' IYSWIM. But if it was just the once, and you said what you have mentioned above, it might prove helpful. I really hope so anyway!

I found what you wrote about the spending time with you REALLY interesting. If I want something, anything, from XP, I have to be really casual about it. Pretend not to give a toss one way or the other, and be super relaxed and nonchalent. because the minute he gets a whiff that there is something he can do for you that you NEED that actually matters, he will drag his feet and make all sorts of excuses why its not possible, or just say 'we'll see' leaving you feeling vulnerable and worried, unable to plan ahead because you don't know whether the thing you have asked for will or won't be granted. You constantly live in a state of anxiety, unable to trust, but also unable to show that lack of trust because then he'll get cross, and moan that you don't trust him, are always so negative etc etc.

You know, I could be way off the mark here, but I think you're not an unhappy person as a rule. I don't think you are particularly needy, or sad or difficult to be around. I think it's just him that's made you that way, the sheer grinding you down that constant exposure to a passive aggressive creates. I suspect if you were out of it, away from him and unable to have your buttons pushed by him, your vulnerability exposed and then used against you, I think you would be fine. More than fine, happy, and at ease, and secure.

(Good new re the letting agents by the way, they have my references, and I get the keys on Monday!)

Hurray for keys

I don't think I am generally an unhappy person and at the moment I can feel such a change in myself when he's around. I go from calm and together to feeling panicky and frustrated - even if he isn't saying anything!

Someone slap me

I'm an idiot. He comes to get boys, I try one last time (I know I know) to get across my POV. I say it is over and it is time that he accepts that he has treated me badly. He asks for examples. I say I don't have to justify myself to you, it should be enough that I am hurt. He says that he can't remember so much of what he does and asks for examples again. I say I will not point out individual occasions for him to rationalise away and twist, and repeat that it should be enough to know that I am hurt. I say that I am not going to be lied to or manipulated or abused any more. He pauses, headbutts the wall, and storms out.

I know this is more manipulation, but I am concerned about what he might do

Yes I know I opened myself up to it, I know I shouldn't have spoken to him.

I still want him to fight for us, damnit!

See? Officially a moron. That's me.

Ok, well, we've all done it. It's almost inevitable. Splitting up is horrendous. It's never amicable like slebs claim.

You said earlier today that you needed to know that you'd done everything you possibly could to try and save the relationship.

Well, I understand that, but listen, now you know, without a shadow of a doubt that he will never see your point of view, he will never understand where you're coming from...

He's so close to losing you he's already lost you and yet he still can't pull a bit of understanding and support for you out of the bag. If not now, then when would he EVER be able to do that!! He can't do it, he didn't try. He can't try. Your analysis of him is correct. He is self-absorbed. It's all about him.

I remember how utterly desperate I felt when I realised that my deep, deep distress was an exasperating irritation to my x.

Your h is the same I think. You have to accept that bit I'm afraid. It doesn't happen overnight, but you'll eventually accept it with a shrug. Promise you. I struggled with that bit as well. When you say "I still want him to fight for us, damnit!" I know what you mean, because I really hoped for a long while that my x would stop blaming everybody and look inwards to find the answers, but it never happened. I gave him five thousand chances. But all that happened was that he saw me pleading, negotiating, analysing, bargaining, and in the end his view of me is that I was impossible to please. Bollix! of course. But 'reasoning' got me nowhere.

Listen, as my Mum said to me "if he was a reasonable guy you woudlnt have left!!" You can't leave him and expect him to be reasonable about it. Obviously he won't be reasonable about you leaving him. He hasn't a history of being a reasonable guy (to you, not to the outside world).

You had a setback this afternoon, trying to reason with him. But don't worry too much. So long as you didn't say you were about to change your mind then you haven't done any real damage.

The bottom line is you don't need him to understand why you want out. Ok?! You want out?! You have out!!!! Who is in charge of YOU?! YOU are in charge of YOU. He doesn't actually need to understand why you want out for the door to open for you to leave. (but omg I do understand that overwhelming urge to try to make him see).

Please don't try to reason with him again. Just say, like a dripping tap "I want a life without you"

I want a life without you. I want to start again without you. I want a life without you. I want to start again without you. I want a life without you. I want to start again without you. I want a life without you. I want to start again without you. I want a life without you. I want to start again without you. I want a life without you. I want to start again without you. I want a life without you. I want to start again without you. I want a life without you. I want to start again without you. I want a life without you. I want to start again without you. I want a life without you. I want to start again without you.I want a life without you. I want to start again without you.

Thank you so much I feel a fool for still wanting him.

The problem is I very much want a life with him, but it's not possible. So I have to choose the life without him.

Ah well, one step forward, two steps back.

He will never see (cue my head, "Why won't he see? Why aren't we enough? Why can't he wake up? Why can't he do these things when he used to do them? Why? Why? Why?"). He doesn't want to understand.

I did stand firm. For all the good it did.

I reckon he'll be skipping self-pity this week and going straight to anger and retaliation.

Sorry for dragging you over here, MArgot, but thank you so much for coming.

I know what you mean. I took me a long time to let go of that notion of being 'a family'.

When I left, it broke my heart every time I realised "I am a single parent". But that doesn't hit you between the two eyes in the same way every day going forward. I accept it now and it doesn't upset me now. I have accepted that this is how life turned out.

Ok, I'd like to meet somebody new one day, and get a good job and if things go well, I'd like one day to buy a small house, but I have stopped going over the past, pouring over it, re-writing it in my head.

It's human nature I suppose to obsess about these things but they do pass.

I wasted a whole year trying to reason with my x, and that was after I left him!!!!! So I can't think you're an idiot for trying to reason with him!

It's a bloody hard process leaving a man who is hanging on to your soul, with fcuking crampons, if you'll excuse my French! but even so, you can get away.

Mantras

It'd be insane to go back for more abuse!
Who's in charge of YOU!? YOU are in charge of YOU!!

Dont want to hijack but just wanted to ask a couple of questions about men like this as I believe my exH is

1. Is it a trait for them to dump all their shit on you both verbally and by their actions (eg my exH failed to pay the mortgage for several months but refused to take any action) and then cut the conversation dead and refuse to accept any ways forward you might suggest?

2. He moved on really quickly to new P (within months of him splitting up) whereas I am very very wary (mainly down to experience with him) and this has made me question myself about what he is like (tho I know what he is like really I do) and at this stage she too will be duped.

I suppose somewhere inside I almost still can't believe he behaved as he did and it is some reaction to me.

I am starting counselling as he still tries to manipulate and control me via the arrangements for the children. And if he gets a chance will still undermine my parenting/state of house (how can you live like this he will say).

Any advice (which might help the OP too) as to how to break free from him?

I am of course so much happier without him (since mid 2006) but I do still have to be involved with him unfortunately for the DCs sake.

Thank you.

I know this won't really be the last time I try something stupid. I just wish this baby would come so I'll have something to keep me busy! I've just got too much time on my hands.

ARGH!

Right. I'd better go and sort out the dcs >

Thank you so much for letting me drag you back into my daft world.

sincitylover - 1) Yes definitely.
2) Could be just a rebound thing - hard to say.

I'm glad you're getting counselling - understanding that his actions aren't your responsibility and his opinions aren't worth anything will all help. Lots of work on your self-esteem will also be good.

Look at me giving out advice

Oh the irony

Youknow, if I were you I might stop trying to justify myself to other people. Don't feel you have to explain why you are leaving your h. Don't get drawn in.

OK, your best friend who knows all the ins and outs is different, but for everyone else, decide on a line and stick to it (pretend you are a spin doctor advising a government minister if it helps). "It's very sad but we are separating."

If anyone asks any further questions, before you get sucked into justifying yourself, stop and take a breath, then say something you are comfortable with. Don't feel you have to state your reasons in triplicate.

YouKnow,
Don't worry deary. As you get more practiced at not being drawn into discussion with him, it will become second nature. We all slip up, don't beat yourself up about it. The main thing is, you are making progress, you are starting to move forward in a positive way, and detach from his frustrating mind games. That's a great step, and you should be proud of yourself even if you do get dragged back in from time to time

By the way, I had a moment like this the other week. Just to share a few pearls of wisdom from MN, I was told:

"once you know for sure that you're leaving, it's pointless to argue any more. Just smile vacantly and look forward to your fresh start. Save your energies for thinking about the future!"
MsBeauregarde

"Well, stop worrying about him topping himself for a start, it's just yet another way for him to abuse you."
LauriefairycakeeatsCupid

"I agree that the conversation went on longer than was good for you. We have similar ones, but now as soon as he turns on me I end the conversation."
lilac21

"Don't have the conversations with him about him scaring you - he's never going to agree and he'll just use it to twist stuff and get you confused. How do I know this? well they all read from exactly the same script!!! stay strong and get out.
Remember he wants his own way and will do anything to get you to agree - and even if you were mad it's perfectly ok to not want to be with him - and you know you're not mad really anyway - might be a good idea to google 'gaslighting' because that's what he's doing."
kate1956

"I would also suggest that you stop trying to have conversations to try and get him to cooperate. You are fighting a losing battle. He will never want to cooperate and be equal, what he wants is a struggle where he is one up all the time."
dittany

Chin up!

That's good advice from Edam. I have to be careful not to tell well-meaning strangers too much. If they become friends, in time, and if I decide I want to tell them, then I do, but generally, I now stick to a jaunty but uninformative "he lives in the Uk and we live here ". Full stop. It took me a while to get to that point though. I had a horrible habit of purging every detail to the milkman, postman and avon lady for the first while.

Thanks Edam, CheerfulV and Margot. You are all right. I hang my head in shame (But in a positive and purposeful way).

I will keep my explanations to a minimum, a sad shrug and "It's very sad but we are separating"

I've got to stop banging my head against the wall.

I wouldn't even look sad if I were you. People will take their cue from you.

I just announce almost delightfully that their father lives abroad. I know you can't do that! although you may wish it. Put if you don't want people to tilt their heads to one side of their shoulder and say, "oh I'm so sorry" then you have to tell them what the ARE supposed to feel.

I tell people I am divorced and it's Tuesday and it's tuna pasta for tea, just yada yada ! No biggie. Cos, for me, it isn't. It was the being with him that was sad! Having left him is the happy ending!! People around me get that I think.

Maybe one day that will be my response too, and I'll mean it. One day.

You will, you'll see this time next year, leaving a miserable relationship is the start of your alternative happy ending, honestly.

Living in 2.4 wedded bliss with labrador, volvo, wood floor boards throughout and prince charming, that's one happy ending,,,

but feeling independent, happy, enjoying your children and knowing they're allowed to be children, being free to take up whatever hobbies interests you, you have a licence to be 100% yourself, that is another happy ending!

You will get there, honestly

'Tis true. We will be happy again - no matter what path we end up going down. He came round earlier to collect the DCs and announced he hadn't arranged the babysitter for the Relate session as promised. I just shrugged and said, that's fine, if there isn't one I'll cancel and closed the door.

Hurray for me for not rising to it

He also sent an apologetic email earlier saying he was sorry for headbutting the wall and storming out, and he had been listening to what I was saying, and did agree with it all, and he was sorry for not seeing the boys.

And... I didn't reply

At present I am quite happy to sit in the Relate session with a distant grin on my face and say nothing for an hour. I do think if nothing else hearing me say "It's over" in front of someone else will make it more real for him. But if it doesn't then it's not my problem.

Right attitude? Or at least getting there (still very "him" focused, but less "justification" focused).

Brilliant! You're doing amazingly!

Whether it'll last into tomorrow I have no idea but I know I can do this And at the moment just occasionally knowing that is enough.

I know exactly what you mean. Knowing you are capable of walking away from silly, pointless conflict is a heady feeling. Makes me wish I'd started ignoring him years ago

Definitely

Today's mantra "I do not need to justify my pain I am entitled to feel how I am feeling"

You are clearly on a roll! More power to your elbow.

(Glad the reminder about not needing to justify yourself to all and sundry helped...)

Absolutely! you're on the road. Good for you. The more you pull away from him, the easier it gets to pull away another bit more.

CheerfulV, so true, I only started to stop carign what x thought of me when I stopped trying to defend myself. The first few texts telling you you're a selfish imbecile (or whatever) are VERY hard to rise above and ignore, but after you've successfully risen above the first ten or so insults/provocations/emotional manipulations (delete as applicable according to the knob husband in case, it gets so much easier.