Am I just being petty?

[YouKnowNothingoftheCrunch]

I asked H to move out a couple of weeks ago. I'm 34 weeks pregnant with dc3.

H has been depressed for the last 18 months. He's been having counselling for a year and is on 40mg Citalopram.

He has been diagnosed as Passive Aggressive and has been emotionally abusive towards me for over a year.

My family and friends are very supportive, but all are a long way away. Lately I have had a few comments along the lines of "It's really hard sometimes to see why things are so bad when all the things he does are so small and petty" this is always followed by a disclaimer saying "of course I know things are that bad, but when I think about what you've said later on it just doesn't seem such an issue".

So I'm beginning to worry that maybe I am blowing it out of all proportion.

I have supported him completely (and alone apart from medical professionals) for 18 months. In that time he has blamed me for all his problems on a regular basis, told me not to be sad or cry around him (and by around him I mean hiding in the bathroom where he overheard) because I am making him feel bad and am holding back his progress, has completely emotionally neglected me whilst expecting 100% comfort (which I have given, and has been verbally aggressive and nasty on a regular basis whenever he feels angry or frustrated by anything.

His PA means that he offers the world and delivers only excuses. His current thing is to blame his behaviour on the PA, so that he is not responsible for it.

He has stopped taking his medication on occasion (without telling me or his GP or counsellor).

He knows my history of MC and the fact that I was terrified in early pregnancy, and deliberately avoided supporting me or being there for scans. I was also banned from crying and expected to support him and let him be angry with me - which I was not strong enough to do at the time, but did

He told me he wanted me to only be happy around him and that he was happy to help with practical issues in the home but couldn't cope with my developing depression (although I still had to deal with his and was still offering him comfort). Basically he wants a family with none of the emotional responsibility of it. He would sit and get angry with me while I cried.

He lies constantly and casually and has to be prompted to do everything. His depression has not affected his job at all and he is successful in his career.

So much of what he does is so petty - lying about small things which he will definitely be caught out for.

Since he moved out 2 weeks ago (and the point of him moving out was to break the patterns of behaviour we were stuck in and give me some space to get ready for dc3 without his constant draining) he has been behaving like a teenager and avoiding his issues completely. He promised he would put everything into fixing his marriage, he swears he loves me and promises the world (but can't even talk to me when I'm sad), but instead he lied to me about going out (started off saying he wasn't doing anything, then that some mates had arranged to go out for a drink and he went too, then revealed he had arranged a birthday party for himself as he hadn't had one a month ago). He has problems with alcohol (not to mention being on meds) and made me a promise 9 months ago after he was verbally abusive to me and humiliated me in front of all his friends, to never drink more than 2 drinks in a night. This promise he has kept (even when under enormous social pressure) and I was so proud of him for keeping it; until Friday. When he not only got drunk, but planned to get drunk while sober and made arrangements to get home etc.

It seems such a small thing to base breaking a marriage up on, but that promise was the only real thing he has done in the last year to prove he still loves and respects me (his words can't be trusted)

This is not the man I married. This man is selfish and nasty and thinks of nobody but himself. He is completely unwilling to take responsibility for his actions and is still trying to blame me for everything.

I'm starting to really hate him. And I can't cope with being told I am petty on top of it

Unless of course it is true, and I am being petty... in which case I do need to know.

I love him and want my best friend back. I still hope he'll wake up one day and that self-pitying leech will be gone. I am so angry with him now. Feel like I've wasted 10 years.

I know it's long but can I bump?

H turned up to get the boys. He was all teary and I repeated what I said yesterday, "I'm sorry but it is over". I think maybe it was a mistake yesterday to have said that I would always love him and always hope he got better, when I said that it was over. He seems to have taken that as evidence that it is not over. I wish he'd tell everyone around him the truth, then he's have to face it and couldn't hide away.

I know I sound callous and I also know that I'm not perfect in any of this. But my saving grace is that everything I'm trying to do is to make things better for the dcs. I wish he could put them first.

Hi dittany, that's what I said today - "Nothing's changed. It's over."

Wish I could tell them, but it's all his work buddies and I've never met them.

This may sound incredibly thick but I do always lump in H's PA with his depression. He was PA before but it was bearable and obviously there were positives too so I just thought he was very scatty and a bit irresponsible. But since the depression his PA has been magnified enormously, so I do treat it as a part of his depression rather than as a separate issue.

He said over the weekend that things were so much better when he was at home, so could he come home and then he could be better. I don't think he liked me pointing out that of course things were better... for him! Because I was his punch bag and support.

He never really replies to the hard truth, just looks sheepish and then ignores it all.

I know his behaviour is not my fault.

I know he has had to move out because of his decisions and not mine.

But I still feel incredibly guilty and responsible!

Argh! Someone slap me please.

"The next time it comes up you can just say that it's over full stop then without any qualifiers."

Completely agree with this. By trying to 'explain' you give people around you his family perhaps the erroneous idea that it has something to do with them.

My x's family would have liked me to offer up my life as a sacrafice to his convenience. They don't see that I had a right to my own life. For a long time I felt very bound up with their feelings and opinions of me, but it does get easier and you will in time feel completely unconcerned with what any of them think.

People do end relationships all the time. It's completely your right. People end relationships because they don't fancy eachother.

You're ending it because he's sapped your resources dry. And one tiny coping mechanism of yours (crying in private in the bathroom) is not allowed. But he's allowed to bleed you dry

It sounds awful. I don't know how you have stayed sane.

Don't feel fully sane all the time.

Towards the end I didn't hide away in the bathroom anymore and there were times when he would try to comfort me sometimes (I don't want to misrepresent him) but often the comfort would turn into a discussion of his problems, and it would end up with me comforting him.

I started writing another long blurb about how he does X, Y and Z, but it's not important is it. I have to stop trying to justify all this and accept that the way he makes me feel is cause enough to leave.

And funnily enough Margot, it is actually my family questioning the pettyness. They are very fond of him, and although they always repeat that they fully support me and what I am doing, it hurts when they add things like "it all seems so petty" or "and of course we're only getting your side of all this" I think they think I'm a bit of a hysterical, pregnant woman at times and often try to justify his behaviour towards me. What can I say to them (and by them I mostly mean my mother) to get them to understand that while their support is invaluable to me I find some of the comments really hard to cope with and feel undermined by them?

Wow, Youknow, your x is not like my x, but what we've been through isn't disimilar. It took me a long time to remove myself from a situation which was sapping the life out of me. And for a long time, out of some crazy loyalty, I didn't tell my family quite how badly my x was treating me. I could tell them how awful I felt, but I was too ashamed to be honest about how badly he behaved towards me. So, unsurprisingly, for a long time they believed his version; that I had pnd, and he could do nothing right etc. They know the truth now though, they've seen his true colours.

It's still hard to talk about the verbal abuse though (easier to discuss the physical agression) but he called me a twat and a midget and a failure and said the house was a pigstye blah blah blah. He was awful , but you could never get through to him, never make him see that he was being the unreasonable one!!

Anyway, eventually I did leave, but for many months afterwards, the nasty things his family thought of me and the accusations he flung at me still had the power to anger and upset me so badly I was paralysed with rage and frustration. Crying even though I was 200 miles away. Knowing he hated me with such an intensity was like nails down a blackboard inside me. I still felt being better physically distanced from him though.

It does eventually get so much better honestly, 20 months on, less, my x could stand in front of me and tell me I was lazy, selfish, stupid, a quitter to leave him etc etc etc ad infinitum and I wouldn't even bother to reason with him now. I no longer care what he thinks. Knowing that he thinks I'm a pile of crap and that all his problems are my fault, no longer upsets me so much. I no longer have the urge to 'set him straight' or 'make him see it from my perspective'. It doesn't matter to me. He can think whatever the hell he likes, I'm busy being happy! He still exasperates me! But it's not quite so INTERNAL iyswim. I am emotionally detached from him now.

This has come from refusing to talk to him (something else which angers him greatly, but it's for the best and I highly recommend it as a tactic for moving forward and letting go. I saw no point to having the same conversations again and again, where he bullies me into the resolution that he wants).

Margot, your ex sounds like a nasty piece of work. I wish in some ways that H was less subtle in all his manipulation - so that it was more obvious IYSWIM.

Good to know that distance helps, you've been through a hell of a lot. It's good to know that there is a life beyond all this - that this time will pass and one day I will be happy and secure again.

I do still hope he wakes up - but even if he did there is so much to work through that we may never be together.

For now though, I must move on, and I will. Had a lovely call from my sister earlier where I felt completely listened to and supported. And I even managed to call my mother and tell her how her comment had made me feel. She was so sorry that I'd been upset by it, and reassured me that she hadn't meant to imply that anything I was going through was for petty reasons.

I'm really glad I spoke to her about it.

Still feeling wobbly, but in a positive way, rather than in an insecure way

Thank you to everyone who replied.

Dittany has a very perceptive and complete understanding of abuse in all its forms imo. She is very wise.

Feeling guilty for not taking more abuse is insane! Logically you know that, or you would if it were your friend. I went through that stage too. But if you detach yourself properly from him, it's the last stage. (It is liff.ey here btw. Someone from an Irish board identified my screen name, my own silly fault, but about time for a name change I guess.

youknow I have a habit of chiming in after Dittany's posts and saying, oh yes I totally agree with every word she says. I do it a lot

Thanks dittany, I don't want to believe that he is capable of all this; but underneath it all I am fully aware that this man I am dealing with is a far cry from the generous caring man I married. My mum just wants everything to work out for the best. She does accept that what he's done is wrong, but I think she's still holding on to the idea that if he gets over his depression we can fix things - as am I in a all honesty, but I am now going to move on with my life without him.

We have indeed spoken before Margot. Thank you for your continued support. I finally decided to stop hiding behind namechanges and use my real MN name to discuss all this. It was actually a very cathartic decision and seemed to symbolise (in a highly pretentious and daft way) a change from being ashamed that I couldn't find a way to fix things, to taking control of my own life.

As I have said to myself a hundred times. The choice I have may be a crappy choice, but it is mine to make.

Keep telling me that bit about choosing more abuse being insane - that's the kind of thing I need as my mantra.

Mums struggle with the idea of single parent families more than we do though.. I think my Mum thought that it wasn't just the beings single that I woudl be going through, but also 'the stigma'. I don't feel I've been shunned or excluded from anything I wanted to attend though

For a while, even though my Mum KNEW I was miserable with my x, she still wanted us to get married. She wanted me to leave him and come home, but as a divorcée rather than as a single mother !

That is unfair to her though, as she has been brilliant.

Remember, choosing more abuse is insane!

Repeat after me

My life is not a sacrafice to MrYouKnowNothing. Don't be a martyr! Have a life. That's all. You're not selling your children off to the highest bidder, nothing unreasonable, nothing wicked! You just want a bit of life. The space and the independence to enjoy life.

It's not too much to ask. It is not

Mx

"Choosing more abuse is insane, choosing more abuse is insane..."

We've got our second session with Relate on Thursday. In the first one he was so manipulative and the whole thing became a show for the counsellor - which she fell for and started excusing his behaviour

I'm beginning to think that Relate is not the right thing to be doing right now. It's a way for him to still have access to me which he's using negatively. I hoped it would be a way to start working together and to keep communication open, but as long as his life is entirely motivated by selfish desires I don't think it's going to be productive. I'll go to this next one and then decide.

Any views?

Your are absolutely right to question going to Relate together, I was going to try and talk you out of that.. GOing together would reinforce the erroneous idea he still has that he is YOUR responsibility. Plus, if the counsellor sees you as a couple then his problems are your problems.

The only way to have the counsellor's permission to walk away from him is to repeatedly state to everyone who will listen again and again "this man is my X" This is the only statement which will successfully allow you to finish discussing him. You've done nothing else for years by the sounds of it. More discussion of HIM isn't going to make you wake up one mornign and decide to want more abuse (mantra time! going back for more abuse is insane, going back for more abuse is insane!).

Repeat what you said to him quite recently "it's over". I also think you'd be wise not to say that you love him or that you feel connected to him. The words sound too brutal coming out of your mouth after years of pandering to him, but be honest. Tell him you don't love him, tell him you want a life without him.

You should go to a different, new counsellor who hasn't listened to his side first. Go to a counsellor who will give the belief in your right to start again without him. I didn't go to a counsellor when I left my x but I had the protection of being in a different country! That helped, but he tormented me for months from the UK, so I know how hard that initial period of breaking away is.

You've been propping up this albatross for years. Just think how much energy you're going to have without him!! He is like a hot tap running day and night.... (sorry I'm fond of analogies! can't help myself)

He needs to go to counselling as a single man. That way the counsellor will disuade him from mentioning you all the time. At the moment in counselling, as a couple, he's allowed to bring you into it. This must come to end. A counsellor who sees him as a single man couldn't indulge him in this train of thought indefinitely, I would hope.

Hi, you might want read a thread about PA from a few months back, here. I found Relate very distressing with a passive agressive DP, but it might just have been my counsellor. My thread about it here.

What you said: "I don't have to justify myself, but I still do and I can't seem to stop right now."

that is spot on. I wonder if it's a feature of being with a PA, because their behavior IS so subtle and insidious, you feel like you have to explain to people what exactly it is that they do, because its hard to understand how undermining it can be unless you are on the receiving end day after day.

I broke down in tears the other day in front of my health visitor, when I took DS to be weighed She was really nice though, and seemed to understand what I was going through. (I'm in the process of leaving my XP and moving out). One thing she said struck me, she said that the more hidden and difficult to put your finger on abuse is, the MORE damaging and difficult it is to be around. I suppose in a way, that does make sense. I've lost count of the number of times (and I know this sounds terrible, I don't mean in any way to trivialise violence towards women) I've wished he would push me roughly, or call me a bitch, or scream at me. Because then he would REMEMBER, and other people would understand in a moment. "He pushed me into a door" I would say, and their eyes would clear and they'd nod. "Oh, I see" they say, nodding understandingly. "Well in that case I see why you had to leave him".
Saying that your partner 'huffs and puffs around' or 'chides you like a little girl' or that they 'make you feel wary of angering them' doesn't have the same ring to it, does it?

I think what MargotBeauregarde says is very true. You don't need to explain to anyone really, and with time you will stop feeling the need to. But I certainly know how confusing and frustrating it can be, and how in the end you feel as though perhaps YOU are the stupid/mad/difficult one for not just putting up with things and getting on with it.

Huge un-mumsnetty hugs. Take care.
x

Oh yes, and I meant topost this link too: divorcesupport.about.com/od/abusiverelationships/a/Pass_Agg.htm

Reading that website really helped me to understand that there is a name for it, and it's REAL, IYSWIM.
x

Hi Cheerful. I namechanged, but I remember your plan! HOw's it going? smiling until you get the chance to go. I did that for about a month. It's an exhausting oscar winning performance, but hang in there....

Funny, the day before I left, I also confided in my hv. I had taken my youngest for his mmr (life as normal despite my plans to leave with the clothes we stood up in) and I ended up crying my eyes out in the clinic.

What you say about 'the harder it is to explain, the more upsetting it is' is so true. I still find it very hard to articulate why life with my x was so awful (although luckily it comes up in conversation less and less now) but 'he called me a midget and criticised the house and the cooking' doesn't even come close somehow!!!

My x controlled every tiny little thing. He would get annoyed with me if I didn't use the right saucepan to cook his dinner. I knew that was wrong.. But my mistake was to try and make him see that it was wrong. He may never see it. He'll demonise me for ever, and at the start, that was quite a heavy burden to feel I'd carry for ever, but now I don't care. It'd be like walking past a stranger on the street, and if that stranger said "hey, you're lazy and a quitter". I'd think for a few minutes and then write them off as a weirdo.

It's like that now. Freedom comes! Even when you have children with these nutters! Detachment is still possible!

Margot I think you might be right. We are both getting separate counselling now, and I've been so focused on saving this relationship, that actually I need to stop and take stock. Even today I can feel myself being drawn back into his games - I'm dwelling on what else happened last week, feel like there's something he's keeping from me. I should just be saying, if he has, well, that's his responsibility, it's not my problem. But I'm still too involved at the moment.

cheerfulvicky you also helped me under my namechange name That's it exactly. I've even said to people that I was really scared one night as he was suddenly so aggressive, "Did he hit you?" they ask, "No", "What did he do then?", and I have to say he didn't do anything, but it was really scary and I was terrified. And they look at me like I'm a bit mad.

And then I find myself trying to explain with, "And he's always..." and I sound so petty. I've got one very good friend who I email about it all and she has been very understanding, she once replied to a message I'd sent her about him being late with the words "We're all late sometimes, perhaps you're overreacting a bit about that", so I sent another explanation and she replied again with "Oh God I am so sorry, for a second I was judging your H like a normal person, you are quite right, I'm not surprised you are so upset". So even those who understand have problems understanding it. I've spent years making excuses for all his PA behaviour with the words "We all do that sort of thing sometimes".

Even now I want to excuse it all and take the blame and help him. And I'm at myself for wanting that.

ps cheerfulvicky, My x put his hands over my mouth and squeezed so hard he left finger-shaped bruises. He also pulled clumps out of my hair on several occassions, pulled me so roughly I stumbled backwards, or he shoved me to the ground and sat on me. he claims not to remember. I have since I left accused him of being abusive, he laughs, he splutters with self-righteous indignation at my madness, my false memory syndrome. I am a fantasist apparently.

I also thought when he was verbally abusive that if he 'just hit me' then all would be clear to me, and that I would leave instantly. That still didn't happen. He never raised a punch and hit me. But he was so physically aggressive to me it became more and more frightening. There was rarely a mark I could show anybody though (apart from the finger-shaped bruises). I told his mother about it and she just said 'I dont see anything'. I went out with a friend for coffee two days later and she said 'what's on your face'. I said it was an allergy to jolen creme bleach.

Anyway, I am rambling on and on here.

But bottom line, don't wait for it to become worse so that all will be clear. What's clear or should be clear is that you have to leave.

CheerfulVicky, what's your plan if you don't mind me asking/ Do you have to wait til you have a deposit saved? Was the hv able to offer any practical help/?

Youknow,

You need to make it clear that your agenda is saving YOU now.

It's a very hard 'phase'. I had about 7 or 8 weeks of texts and phonecalls and emails. THe mistake is to get drawn into it all. To try and put forward 'your side'. I admit, I made this mistake!!! It made those 7 or 8 wks very hard. Every time I looked at my phone or emails or got home there was a new message, laying on pressure, and forcing me to explain.

But it was so utterly pointless. I explained my position to him maybe a thousand times. It didn't penetrate his forcefield. Nothing I said got through. It was all about him.

So it was only when I listened to the people telling me that ignoring him was the best tactic that things started to get better, that I started to get better.

I know it annoys him that I won't talk to him. But I feel free of him now. I haven't seen him or emailed him since last July now. I left June 07 and so it took me 13 months to cotton on to the NO CONTACT concept!!! But although I left him 20 months ago, it's only in the last 8 that I feel free and 'lighter'.

Hope all this helps a bit. I know I'm raking over old coals here a bit. But I want you to know that this is a hard phase. The hardest maybe, but after this phase you get to have a life

That is a spooky description of my H on the divorce support link

"The passive aggressive ignores problems in the relationship, sees things through their own skewed sense of reality and if forced to deal with the problems will completely withdraw from the relationship and you. They will deny evidence of wrong doing, distort what you know to be real to fit their own agenda, minimize or lie so that their version of what is real seems more logical."

One of the things I find so particularly frustrating is that H has never been late for work (always for social engagements), has never missed a work deadline (never deals with household things on time, if it weren't for direct debits we'd be cut off constantly), has never avoided responsibility at work (always does at home, it's always my fault or the depression's fault etc.). So why can't he do it at home?!

"The biggest frustration in being with a passive aggressive is that they never follow through on agreements and promises. He/she will dodge responsibility for anything in the relationship while at the same time making it look as if he/she is pulling his/her own weight and is a very loving partner. The sad thing is, you can be made to believe that you are loved and adored by a person who is completely unable to form an emotional connection with anyone."

I do still believe he loves and adores me. Even though all his actions say otherwise, his words are still so convincing. Am I being a mug?

MB, I'm so sorry to hear about your experiences That sounds terrible. You're right I'm sure, these kind of people can and do 'forget' what they have done. I often wish I had a Dictaphone hidden in the living room, because when he denies things I know he's said, it makes my mind feel like it's imploding!

No, ask away that's fine. I'm waiting to sign the tenancy agreement on my new house, hopefully this Friday if they get the other reference back from a friend. Said friend was away and that has delayed things, but hopefully everything will go okay. I'm hoping they will ring me today or tomorrow and say they have it, and arrange a time to go in to the letting agents. XP is going to be driving a van that I have to arranged the hire off, he says that will be cheaper. But I have also quietly looked at man and van options, in case he changes his mind or gets nasty. I have a deposit saved and have sorted benefits and am just waiting now.

The sad thing is, that now I'm going we've been getting on AMAZINGLY well. My oscar winning performance isn't so forced now, he's being really nice and is easy to spend time with. Together we've dug the back garden and worked hard as a team, laughing and joking. I see the man I fell in love with, and the knowledge of what I am doing is very painful at those moments.
Whenever I mention anything to do with going, his face clouds, so I think he's actually completely avoiding thinking about it until the day. I have all my documents together so I can take them in a hurry if need be, but I think he's just going to be sad, more than anything else. I feel less afraid, and more pity and sadness for him than anything else. But still excited about going, in the midst of all grief and doubt. Daft, eh?

Whoops, sorry for hijacking the thread!

Youknow, that bit in "" is like my x too.

And funnily enough he had a very good very well paid job (lost it recently though) he was courteous, conscientious, diligent, hardworking, ambitious and respectful to people at work. Everybody at work thought he was a normal guy.

The person who emptied his bin at work or the lady who pushed the tea trolley got more respect and consideration than I ever got. I was his property to mistreat as he wanted though and ONLY I ever came in for the nasty treatment. He would never have dared talk to other people the way he talked to me. SO on one level he knew it was wrong, but because he felt like he owned me, he thought it was ok. He was a very unhappy depressed man, although he didn't see that, and sapping me and being rotten to me was his coping mechanism. Everytime he was horrendously awful to me, he'd feel calmer the next day. More content.

God, the pattern is like that of a serial killer!!

"They live in denial of their self-destructive behaviors, the consequences of those behaviors and the choices they make that cause others so much pain." sorry for all the quotes but this is almost word for word what I said to him on Saturday

Joining in for support, and because so much of what people are saying strikes a chord. I lived with a man who did everything he could to undermine me. I could never be good enough, but he 'loved' me so he was putting up with my odd ways - as long as I didn't look another man in the eyes, or enjoy time with family and friends, or talk about things he didn't know more about than me...

I finally got the courage to leave when I realised that the only reason I hadn't yet was because he hadn't hit me yet. I could feel it building, and I was telling myself 'well, once he does then I can go'. Thankfully I got to escape point before that. But my sense of self-worth was in the gutter for a long time after, and I could never really go into detail with people of what he'd been like.

Stay strong. He is an abuser - whether it's him or his illness the consequence to you and your DCs are the same. 'Pettiness' doesn't come into it - the cuts inflicted in 'death of a thousand cuts' are each one of them petty, but you put them all together and you get death - is that a helpful analogy you could pass on to your mother?

YouKnow,

You're not a mug. I'm in the same position, I want to believe those words, want to feel that things will be good. That spark of optimism is precious, it shows a lack of bitterness and faith in human nature. Don't stomp it out - just tell yourself that while he MAY love you, he isn't healthy for you. In fact, he's a bit mental (those paragraphs describe my XP too, to a tee) and you have to distance yourself for your own health and happiness. It's hard but one day you will be glad you did...