Help me do the right thing - Friend is planning an abortion. I think she's doing the wrong thing but, somehow, I need to be supportive of her decision <glup>

[NorktasticNinja]

OK, so maybe she's not really a friend in the strictest sense of the word, (she's DPs business partner's wife) but our lives are totally and utterly intertwined and we like each other a lot.

She already has one DD who's 18 months, wants more children and wasn't using contraception. Now she's pregnant and will be having an abortion on Friday . I find her actions and choices really hard to swallow, but obviously it's not about me and what I think or feel about the situation or her choices.

I haven't actually spoken to her myself yet, her DH told my DP this afternoon. DP's the type who can be frank and open about his feelings (the same as mine) without upsetting or hurting anyone's feelings. That's not something I could pull off.

She's made her decision, it can't have been easy and I know I have to be supportive. It's going to be farkin hard. I'm pregnant with DC2 myself ATM (24 weeks) and although I'd always stand up for a woman's right to choose I could never have an abortion myself, whatever the circumstances.

I just can't understand WHY she wasn't using contraception when she's this against have a second child now.

So, help me do the right thing. Please. How can I go about being supportive of her? What can I say?

I'm just so horribly shocked and sad about the whole thing.

Question away all you like in private and to others but NOT to the person/couple in question.

I can pretty much guarantee it will not be welcomed.

miyazaki - i don't mean flat out ask her if she is bonkers. i just meant to discuss the decision in a gentle, supportive way.

and why shouldn't people share their real thoughts anyway? i appreciate honesty from my friends.

OK, just a couple of things.

That it is utterly and wholly her choice and that it is her right to make that choice has never been a question in my mind. Despite my personal feelings on the subject in general (and particularly on the circumstances involved here) I would defend her right to choose against anyone who tried to stop her. Actually I would be prepared to accompany her for the abortion if there was no other option. I hope this is clear enough, because I'd really appreciate it if people would stop haranguing me about the right to choose.

When it comes to interpersonal communication the Dutch way of doing things is fundamentally different to the British way. Directness is king. My not being involved, in the sense of there being open and frank discussions in my presence in which I will be asked for my opinion, is not an option. It is their choice to involve DP and I, I wish I'd never been told, but I have.

To refuse to participate would be the harshest and most disapproving thing I could possibly do. Seriously.

So...

The question is how I can best enter into the inevitable discussion to cause as little hurt and upset as possible both in the short and long term. Is it's better to enter into the discussion lying through my teeth and shutting off my feelings, or, to express some of my true feelings as gently and compassionately as possible? I'm not sure yet. In either case I'll do my damnedest and try to provide unconditional support.

I'm leaning towards the latter option. I think, for my own peace of mind, that I need to ask her if she's sure (really, really sure) that she's doing what is right for her and her family. I don't want to be treading on eggshells and watching my words for the next x number of years.

Our two families work intensively together and will be doing for the foreseeable future, our whole lives are woven together. We've learnt from bitter experience that we have to discuss and take account of the the things that happen in our personal lives. They have a massive impact on the way on the way we (and therefore the business) functions. In fact we now take some time at the end of our management meeting each week to make sure we are up to speed on what is going in in one an others lives.

This issue is not going to dissipate into thin air with not a mention.

She will do what she has to do but whatever it is the repercussions will effect us all, in greater and lesser amounts. In just over 3 months my baby will be born...

Ooops, sorry that was so long

Just to make this clear again your feelings and opnions are mot wrong and you are entitled to them, so please don't think this comes from th eperspective of 'having a go'.

If you absolutely feel that you MUST speak out, because it will be forever between you if you don't, then be aware of the potential consequences

It could go well with a mature and considered discussion on both sides and no harm done. But equally they/she could be very angry with you and it could destroy your relationship. I'm sure you don't need too much imagination to see where that might lead.

Mmmm, DP's (finally) on his way home from work so I've been able to talk to him. It sounds like there has been a lot of open discussion already. How. What. When. Why. The whole kaboodle. It's definitely not an atmosphere of our decision, our business, keep you opinions to yourselves. DP is very forthright in his ways and no offense has been caused...

I really hope I'm able to get away without being pulled in tomorrow. I doubt it, but we'll see.

I fear I will be coming back to this thread...

Thank you all for your input, I appreciate it a lot. It's really good to be able to talk freely about this.

Nork of course you can. I hope you dont feel we have been having a go. That isnt the case but as you have seen this is a massively emotive subject that many of us have experienced, either first hand or via friends and family. I think you will know what to do when the time comes but please do come back and let us know how your getting on.

Blimey, there are clearly HUGE cultural differences between the Dutch and British that really will make this very tricky indeed. But even if a British 'keep your nose out' approach really isn't going to work, then I'd try my hardest to stick to: "I'm pro-choice in general and will support you however I can."

(I don't think the line about it being hard to discuss abortion dispassionately when you are p/g necessarily has to sound smug or anything - not something that would trouble me personally but I can see that it could be quite difficult emotionally for some pregnant women.)

Actually, you've made me very interested in talking to my MIL about growing up with Dutch parents! (Sorry, not v. helpful but had no idea there was such a culture gap.)

Yup Edam, truly massive cultural differences, Southerners are a bit more reserved than people from the Randstad but Rotterdammers are the most direct of all. Friend and DH are Rotterdammers, my DP is actually southerner but his mums a psychologist and originally from Amsterdam so he's just as 'bad'...

It doesn't help the everyone always forgets that I'm actually British.

TBH I think all the direct communication is great, usually it makes life a lot easier. But, just sometimes it's hard to handle.

Flame me if you like, but I couldn't be supportive of this, especially while pg myself

is there any specific reason why she wants a termination

NN - I wish you had said earlier that they were Dutch (or perhaps you did but I missed it). I grew up in Belgium and my best friend at school is Dutch so I know all about the communications chasm.

I do think saying that you are finding it difficult because of your pregnancy seems to me to be the best approach. And actually you don't know for sure if your reaction wouldn't be different if you weren't pregnant.

I sympathise - even though I've had an abortion, I would find it difficult if I were pregnant and supporting a friend through one. Very difficult

what I mean is that if everyone who was a bit cash strapped had an abortion.......

Sorry can't post anymore now, am at work. I'll get back this evening if I can.

caz - the best person to make any decision about pregnancy is the woman herself. SHE knows why she's making this choice.

I am an intelligent and educated woman and I still got pregnant using contraception. I chose not to have an abortion despite my partner's request so don't judge her. It can happen to anyone by accident. It happened to my cousin and she was on the pill. I find it a bit insulting to all those who have accidents. What if it had happened to you? I must admit my experience has turned me against abortion as a personal choice but I can understand why some women feel they need to do it. She won't be taking it lightly I can assure you and I echo others in that this is more about your personal morality.

i am pro-choice but IMO there are degrees of whether of not it makes "sense."

for me it makes less sense in this situation as it has been described: a married woman with a child, in a stable relationship, not using contraception (or not effectively). the reason given by the OP is financial stability and getting their business off the ground.

i would contend that there is no guarantee the future will bring that financial stability, etc., nor is there a guarantee another baby can be conceived on demand.

NN - do keep us posted!

She is probably going through hell and needs someone to support her not judge her.

Could you start a thread askin
g if any Dutch people had an opinion on this? Having read this thread it seems the cultural difference is crucial to your dilemma and having initially said keep out of it I am now thinking you should say how you feel because you seem to suggest that they would do that if the situation were reversed.
I hope it's not too upsetting for you. This a truly horrid situation to finmd yourself in - so complicated.

No good can ever come of trying to prevent a friend from making what you think is a mistake.

They have to make their choices and live with the consequences just as you would expect them to allow you to do too.

And you can support people without agreeing with them. You're supporting the person, not their decisions. Presumably you will still like her just as much regardless of which choice she makes.

You are making yourself really clear but the issue is beyond the rights and wrongs of abortion, and more so the wrongs of you being pretty much forced into a drawn out discussion over something you claim you really, really, don't want to discuss.

It WOULD dissipate into thin air if left alone-life moves on quite quickly, and thank god all of our desicions aren't so thoroughly mauled over. Your baby will be here in a flash and this will be yesterday's news. Honestly, if you all wanted this episode to pass you by without much hand wringing, it would, and you could facilitate it. Dutch or not, it simply isn't fair that this is carried out by concensus if you really don't want to be badgered into joining the debate. There is something really unsavoury about this becoming a four-way issue between the two couples.

I am pregnant and the concept of termination doesn't disturb me in this way, though many other things are doing, and if I was harangued into discussing my 'no-go' topics, I too would be troubled.

She may not want either you to lie though your teeth, or, as a polar opposite, provide unconditional support-she may just want to simply go forward in the way that she has decided. But either way, your DP, his business partner and the lady in question should certainly respect your decision not enter this fray.

a few years ago i was in a relationship with a guy when i had a pregnancy scare despite using precautions. i have 2 teenage children and did not want to start again. i also did not want to give up work. it was very, very tough but i decided that i would have an abortion because ultimately it was my life, my decision. i would be the one doing the lion's share of the childcare and i simply didn't want it enough.

it turned out that i was not pregnant and i have never felt so relieved in my life, so very grateful not to have had to go through with the abortion, never knowing the baby, etc. i had not slept well for weeks with the worry of it and lost half a stone through stress.

i am telling you this because i want you to consider that your friend is having to be very, very brave. it is a wretched business. i wept in the arms of an old friend, herself a mother of 2, she was a rock to me, please be that rock to your friend..

goodnightmoon- your story is eerily similiar to mine. I had a termination several weeks ago. At the time I knew it was the right thing to do. Despite the pregnancy being planned and being in a loving relationship with dh I went ahead with a termination- my reasons? As soon as I found out I was pregnant I seemed to spiral into a depression, became obsessed with how we'd cope financially, how I'd cope with a second baby, how I'd cope with another pregnancy etc. I did discuss with DH but felt too ashamed to talk to my family and friends about what I was planning to do.

What I'm trying to say is that I wish I had spoken to a friend about what I was planning to do. If one person had challenged me in my decision I may have changed my mind (my dh just assumed I knew what I was doing). I thought the clinic would at least ask me if I was sure I was doing the right thing, offer counselling etc but they didn't. The whole process was far far too easy, in my opinion. So Norstakininja I think, if your friend raises the topic, you should at least check with her that she is very very sure she's doing the right thing. I wish I had been brave enough to ask someone. This isn't to say that I think my decision was wrong, but I wish I'd had the opportunity to talk things over with a neutral party.

Princeonthemove, well said!

So many posters seem to have totally mis-read the OP - it's not a question of her wanting to wade in with an opinion, more that she has feelings which she'd rather not express, but is worried that she won't be allowed to 'let it lie.'

And no one should be put in that position.

fashionista - i'm sorry about what you are going through.

though i am still very much pro-choice, i feel like the current system is really letting women down, and i agree that it is far too easy.

there is such a fear of anyone wanting to seem un-PC and question a woman's right to abortion that no one dares to question if she has really thought through her decision.

I also was never given any counselling and the private clinic i went to seemed to just be about box ticking. When they asked me why i was having the abortion i didn't even have an answer. I asked what common answers were and they mentioned financial insecurity so i said - oh yeah, that.

If they had delved beyond that for one second - that actually DH and I were a normal working couple making a decent wage - maybe the real reasons would have come out.

My reasons are downright embarrassing - mainly to do with my ignorance that having just gone off the pill could result in a pregnancy within the two weeks we didn't use other contraception, and me not wanting DH to think I had accidentally on purpose gotten pregnant. (though he was happy to go ahead with having the child, he left the decision to me.)

the really stupid thing is i went off the pill to "get my body ready" for eventually getting pregnant.

So if anyone had questioned my logic - it would have been a very different situation and maybe i wouldn't have gone through absolute fertility hell (and bitter, bitter regret) before being blessed with my son's birth last year. (6 years after the abortion.)

Nork, how did you get on. Is your friend ok.