Our 5th visit to the Stately Home

[Nabster]

Here we go again.

BOP - Thank you you so much for those few words that mean so much. I know I have felt this all my life, but haven't been able to express it until now. It is why I have never bonded with her properly. I too find it odd, sinister and upsetting. I believe she has always needed control and that was part of it.

Of course I would help bring up my children's children if they were unable and that is what they wanted. But I wouldn't try and be their Mum.

Or rather I wouldn't try and replace their mum

BOP - a few things struck me from your post. Champions of the dispossessed indeed! My mother and father like to portray themselves as the ultimate animal lovers. They also like to make out no one else loves animals as much as they do. My mother tried to suggest I was cruel because I wouldn't stay up till all hours, to see if my cat manted to come in. He quite often stays out all night (of his own accord) and is fine.

Yet I remember when I was a child we got a kitten and my father used to force it to go out, even though she was only a kitten and terrified (I think she was an abused animal from a shelter). She used to whine and scratch at the door for hours and my father used to rage at her because he felt she should want to be outside. I was desperate to let her in. My father now likes to suggest that he loves animals more than humans (he doesn't really like people at all).

When I became a nurse, my mother told me she was too sympathetic to be a nurse. She loves to recall every story about abusive nurses. Whenever she encounters nurses, they have always been mean/horrible. It is like she wants to out do me in terms of niceness. She likes to think that myself and her elder daughter are horrible people. I internalised this as a kid, believed it, and ultimately that is why I became a nurse. To prove to them and to myself that I wasn't a horrible person. Okay so my father praised the nurses that dealt with him recently but he has never praised me for being a nurse. He didn't even mention it in the wedding speech, but did mention a school running record that means nothing to me.

Indeed there are horrible nurses out there and I am not always a nice person. But I feel it is the role determination thing again. If I did well in sport or academia, it was worth mentioning. It fulfilled their need for social status and proof that they had raised me well. However they do not want to praise my nursing specifically, because it denies the role they have assigned me. As a horrible, nasty person. That this is the reason for the difficulties in our relationship and not them. The proof in the pudding was when my father mentioned that I had gained a first class honours degree in the wedding speech, but he did not mention it was in nursing. He never fails to point out that in his opinion it is not much of a profession. Second to doctors, lawyers etc

Time and time again, I have to hear about what nice people they are.

BOP it does hurt and I understand your viewpoint totally. Your children should always come first. Your love and concern should ultimately be for them. It is just show though. How many times do we hear on the news about abusive parents who seemed like normal, nice citizens. Even that guy who locked his daughter in the cellar for most of her life and fathered children by her, was apparently a nice, normal man to outsiders!

About growing up with trauma, it strikes me that a lot of us have parents who have been damaged by their own traumas. My mother suffered a bitter divorce, lost a baby boy at only three days old and ultimately lost another daughter to schizophrenia. My father had an abusive father and passive mother. No wonder they are damaged. Like you BOP I grew up with this trauma.

On one level I feel I should be so sympathetic that I can forgive their mistreatment of me and understand it. A tiny part of me does and maybe that is why I can't cut them out completely. However, handling trauma in a family is very important. I believe the children still come first, even over your own grief and unhappiness. This is not to say you can't feel it or have to bury it. I suggested counselling to my mother, she told me it was a load of crap. I suggested talking to friends (she doesn't have any), she doesn't believe in sharing family secrets. At some point my parents have to accept that they are responsible for their own mental well being. I cannot fix everything. This is why we are all on here I suppose, to make ourselves stronger for our children.

Sakura - How is the pregnancy going? As I get nearer to the birth of my precious daughter and my hormones are all over the place, I find it all the more difficult to handle. This might be the last child we have and I want to ebjoy it. For it not to be tarnished by my parents like last time. However I do believe I have much more distance emotionally this time, and I am hanging onto that.

He emailed me today. [mixed]

It will be fine. I have told him where I am at and tomorrow is another day. Have enough to worry about without starting this nonsense again.

(posted on other MH thread about tmw.)

Baker, don't let his email give you false hope about how a relationship with him could be. Remember how shit it feels when after responding to a few of your emails he stops responding for a bit. Don't let him make you feel that again. Your DH wouldn't treat you this way. (I know you know all this, just reiterating)

He is being weak wanting reassurance from you that you still think of him but then isn't prepared to give you much back and gets scared and stops contact by the sound of it. He should have more consideration for your feelings.

I am so sorry there are so many of us who have suffered.

It's going to take me some time to get through this thread and not at work where I might shed a tear despite knowing these days that it's actually OK to cry.

I've read so many experiences which mirror my own - the messed up not knowing what's normal, e.g., ActingNormal who said she wouldn't have bothered reporting the acts her brother did. I was raped (for the second time) by a friend, I never mentioned it - these things happen right? And another time I was out with friends in a bar and was sexually assaulted in the toilets - I never even thought about it until a couple of years ago when one of the girls said "we were so lucky none of us were attacked the way we used to act" - and I remembered I was... but I'd just brushed it to one side and carried on with the evening.

Anyway, I received an official diagnosis of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) 5 years ago and have just finished a Schema Therapy course of about 3.5 years which has saved my life. I'm 35 now and I'm angry that I've had my life robbed from me. If I hadn't been battling to stay alive what could I have done with my life? Where would I be now?

I am ready to be a mother now, truth be told I wasn't ready before. Now mother nature is taunting me by not letting me get pg ... I long for the children I can love, the extended family I can have. I want my children and their friends to feel safe in my house, I can't wait for the day they bring their partners home.

Just a quick introduction from me.

PS I am still in touch with my father - he was not as toxic as my mother - but... I resent him for being weak - he didn't protect me.

Another reason for me being in touch with him is financial... if the shit hits the fan he's there with his cheque-book. My therapist told me to take their money. They took my childhood - they owe me!

AN Thank you for that. I have actually worked out why he means so much to me and it is so much better now I know as it is fine. It isn't the big issue it was. I have sent him an email - which could be taken as a goodbye - and I am happy with that.

Emailed him to ask him to tell me if he wants me to bog off or not - had this back

I don't wish to carry on any communication with you, however forever is
a flipping long time. For the foreseeable future please leave me alone.

SkiHorse, I feel like saying Congratulations to anyone new who posts on here because I know how scared I felt when I first posted.

I'm so sorry you went through so much and were brainwashed into thinking it was normal. Knowing how wrong it was and that you are allowed to feel the way you do about it and shouldn't feel like you are being stupid is a huge part of how to feel better I think.

Baker, his email sounds to me like "Fuck off for now because you have made me cross by rejecting me first, but if I feel like contacting you again in the future because I want the ego boost of you responding to me and being interested in me then I will selfishly do it even though it messes you up". I could be completely wrong though as I don't know him.

AN I think you are right except for the rejecting bit as really he has rejected me. I had his phone number hidden away so when I go upstairs I am going to throw it out.

I had my first meeting with C at the hospital to talk about things and for her to get a feel for what therapy I am going to need. I was with her for one hour and go again on the 9th June.

On the man thing - I asked her if it was the feelings he had given me more than it being him. She said yes, so that has helped so much to knock him off his pedestal and I really want to never have contact with him again. Most people remember their first loves but they have that on a foundation of a good family and supportive parents. I never had that so what I felt for him, and what we had together, meant much more than usual. She is the first person to really see that.

roseability, I'm 35 weeks now. My mother wasn't around for the birth, thank God. But my toxic MIL utterly spoiled the first precious moments, days and weeks with my DD.
So I am very anxious about that happening again. But I think she will be more wary this time, and knows I have limits (last time I refused to see her for about 2 months when DD was 4 months old. It was that or my sanity gone!)

I feel its such a shame that I have to be wary. I wish I was surrounded by people who loved me and wanted to help me out of kindness, not out of some sick desire to control and to say, "Look, you're obligated to me now" . I am also worried that DH will not see his mothers behaviour again.

HAving said all that, I am older and wiser now. I never saw it coming last time. I never imagined that MIL desire for control would be such a driving factor in all her actions (silly me, after knowing my mother!)

Can I also just say something that I have been thinking ever since you started posting. I think it is highly suspect that your grandmother wants you to call her your mother. She is not your mother, so I don't understand it at all. Even if she felt like she was your mother because she loved you so much, she still shouldn't use the word "mother" to describe her relationship towards you. Why has she done this, do you think? I feel it negates so much of your reality, because she absolutely is not your mother.
I don't know all the details but I think she has a lot of issues by trying to displace her own daughter. Why could your mother not look after you? HOw much of that inability to look after you could have been brought about by your grandmother's behaviour towards her?
Sorry, you don't have to answer any of this. Please ignore it if you feel you can't answer. Its just that the more I hear about your grandmother, the more it reminds me of my MIL, who tried to somehow displace me and become the "main" maternal person in DD's life. MIL is DD's granmother, not her mother, but she really, honestly believed, I think, that she was as important as me in DD's life. It just reminds me so much of your grandmother's behaviour that this is why I felt I had to post this.

Sakura thank you so much for your post

I feel liberated because finally I believe and have confidence in what I have felt deep down my whole life. That it is sinister, it is wrong and it is weird. I think it took having my own child to fully understand it. BopTheAlien expressed these semtiments as well and it released something. Finally I am justified in my feelings.

My birth mother unfortunately had severe/chronic schizophrenia. Whilst I do believe she would genuinely not have been able to look after me full time, I do believe that the way the situation was handled made her illness worse.

I was with her and in and out of foster care until I was three. I had developed a bond with my grandmother and her second husband, so I was evetually adopted by them when I was 3-4 years. However I called them Nan and by his first name and still had contact with my birth mother who I called 'mum'.

Eventually I stopped calling her mum and called my adoptive parents mum and dad. I had less and less contact with my birth mother. When I was 8 my adoptive parents moved 200 miles away from my birth mother. They say it was because of money issues, but I have my doubts. They tell me it was my idea to call them mum and dad and it is what my birth mother wanted. Again I doubt that. My aunty tells me my birth mother used to be distraught saying 'why is she calling you mum, I am her mother'

I have read the social services reports around my adoption and one section states about the bond between my birth mother and I lessening. That I didn't even recognise her in photographs anymore. How sad.

Whilst I accept she was very ill and there were times when it would have been too traumatic for me to see her (when she was psychotic) I absolutely believe my grandmother didn't do enough to keep us in touch.

I have now had open communication with my aunty, who has hinted it was all done for the wrong reasons. Knowing what I do now about my adoptive mother and father, I don't doubt that. My mother adored me and actually did okay looking after me when she was lucid. We could have had more of a relationship and I should have kept calling her mum. Unfortunately she is dead now.

My grandmother says things like 'the mother of the bride used to be the most important person at the wedding'. Firstly this is not true and secondly 'you are not my mother!'. When DS was born 'how could anyone not want their mother there?', again you are not my mother and even if you were, you are too toxic and damaged.

Sakura - I absolutely believe some toxic mothers and MILs are not capable of having a normal relationship with their children and grandchildren because they want control for their own messed up reasons. It is almost as if they want to prove they are better mothers by undermining their daughter/DILs relationship with their grandchildren. They cannot see the normal boundaries and joys of a grandparent/grandchild relationship. That they are not the mothers and that it is different.

I don't understand this. Of course I will adore my grandchildren and I will help my daughter/son whenever necessary in a way which suits them. But I look forward to the different kind of relationship with grandchildren (if I have been a good enough mother that I will be included in their lives), that the disciplining and day to day decisions about baby/child care are not up to me. How great! And I get to spend time with them, but hand them back to mummy and daddy!

Don't doubt your mother or MILs manipulation. You are stronger this time and I have no doubt that we will enjoy those precious first months with our newborns more

I did raise this with my grandmother for the first time. She did say 'well call me Grandma then and your DS can call me Great Grandma'. I am seriously considering doing this. She realises that her game is up, that she has lost any bond with me and my children

Also meant to say that I don't think it is wrong that I went to live with my grandmother. Just that she manipulated me into calling her mum.

I talked to my MIL recently about this and when I suggested that although I would want my DS to go and live with her if I couldn't look after him, I would not want him to call her mum. She looked horrified at the idea, as much as she loves my DS. That reaction said it all

I think I lost a post somewhere. It was about anger towards my children. It was following on from some thoughts that flashed into my head the other week - "Just because my friend has made me angry from one incident doesn't mean that I hate her and need to get her out of my life". And then, "Just because the children make me angry doesn't mean I don't love them". When I feel angry with them or I don't feel my love for them I worry about it and give myself a hard time over it. Similarly to thinking that if a small bad thing happens to the children and that if I don't stop it immediately they will be deluged by feelings as bad as what I went through as a child, I feel that if I feel a bit negatively towards them and I don't stop these feelings immediately I will become as bad towards my children as the people in my childhood. I have been trying to never feel negatively about the children, and failing because this is impossible for anyone!, and feeling like a bad parent and feeling this means I am in danger of becoming an abusive parent. I'm realising this is an overanxious way of thinking though, a symptom of my anxiety and it isn't true.

I'm realising that EVERYONE feels negatively about their children every now and then. Therapist said his children make him feel like throttling them when they behave badly and throwing them out of the window! - "Little Shit!" he said! but he still loves them and this is normal. Children are irritating and frustrating and wind you up by not behaving properly because they are still learning how to. I feel scared to feel negatively about the children when they behave badly and scared when I have expressed anything negative towards them. It seems like a big deal when I do, partly because I NEVER express my negative feelings towards other people. I was brought up in an environment where emotional expression was forbidden and this makes me feel scared of the consequences of expressing myself. But now I'm thinking what about the consequences of not expressing it? I want the children to learn that they can express their anger (appropriately) rather than repressing it like I have with bad effects on their health. So modelling how to express it appropriately and letting them learn by my example could be a good thing!

Also I feel that showing them I am angry with them when they do things I don't like but then still being loving towards them when they are not behaving badly gives them the important message that they don't have to be perfect and I will still love them, and they are still good enough even if they make mistakes and make me angry sometimes. I feel it is really important what DH said a while back - that he doesn't feel guilty when he shouts at the children because being negative isn't ALL he does and that this is an important difference between him and my parents. DH expresses his positive feelings towards the children AS WELL, whereas my parents only expressed their annoyance. If your parents don't express positive feelings and you learn to interpret an absence of your parents' annoyance as them showing their love for you then you will feel you have to be perfect all the time so that you never provoke their annoyance. As nobody is perfect this is impossible and you will grow up with feelings of not being good enough. I see a lot of adults around me who don't feel happy and can't find contentment because they are striving towards being perfect and having a perfect life too much. They never feel good enough or that their lives are good enough. I feel a useful thing to teach your children is - You don't have to be perfect to be good and loveable. You are allowed to make mistakes without feeling you are totally worthless so there is no need to be frightened of doing new things because of a fear of failure. Things don't have to be perfect for you to enjoy them, right now, the way things are. I think children can learn this by you letting them know that they have done things wrong occassionally and made you angry occassionally but because you have continued to love them and have shown your love this proves to them that they are still good enough to be loved by you even if they are imperfect. They will feel that if you can still love them when they are imperfect then they can still love themselves if they are imperfect and other people are likely to find them loveable. Also, showing by example that you can be happy and enjoy things in your everyday life even if things are not perfect must be a good way for them to learn that life doesn't have to be perfect to be good. A big illness of modern society seems to me to be the constant striving for a perfect ideal, which we have probably got from the media, which we can never reach, and then feeling dissatisfied, disappointed, disillusioned, discontented, depressed and not good enough. We need to enjoy the little things that are good in our lives right here and now, just relax, notice what feels nice/looks nice etc and enjoy it, appreciate it and celebrate it. Also if you feel your love for the things/people around you, you are more likely to take good care of them.

Basically in summary, all this means I can feel less scared about the negative feelings I sometimes have about the children if they have behaved badly, stop feeling like a bad parent if I express them and stop being overanxious that the children will be emotionally damaged. Being anxious about the negative feelings makes them worse I think and makes them last longer. Relaxing about the angry incidents will make me get over them more quickly and allow the positive feelings to come back more quickly so that I can start showing loving feelings towards the children more quickly. If I show I love them despite the fact that they know they make me angry sometimes and don't behave perfectly then they will learn that they don't have to be perfect to be good enough and loveable.

Therapist thinks all the guilt is not a totally bad thing because it makes you self-check that you are behaving correctly towards the children and proves that you want to do a better job than your own parents.

AN - I too have issues about showing anger towards my DS. Of course I get angry with him. Sometimes I really shout at him. Although I know all mums feel like this sometimes, I dwell on those occasions and feel incredibly guilty about it.

The way I like to think about it, is that it is normal to show emotion. Imagine if you never shouted, got angry or upset. Your children would have a distorted sense of reality and maybe would not feel okay showing such emotions themselves.

The guilt, whilst crippling sometimes, allows us to question ourselves as parents and admit when we are wrong. If I really feel I have been wrong and shouted at my DS for the wrong reasons e.g. I am tired, then I will hug him, tell him how special he is and even apologise.

We don't want to be like our parents. Funnily I don't remember my mother shouting at me or smacking me. But then I don't remember her hugging me or making me feel special either. She was emotionless I think. However she could turn round and say the cruelest things, but would never apologise afterwards. She would obviously feel guilt as she would try and give me the coldest, stiffest hug and I would shrug her away. But it wasn't enough. Genuine guilt and sorrow was needed.

We feel that, we have emotions and we are normal.

Oh and the not being perfect thing, what a revelation! One of the most important needs as a human is to feel worthwhile and loved, even when we are not perfect. By getting angry with our kids (and maybe not even liking them very much on occasions!) but still loving them, we are giving them a very precious thing - self esteem.

roseability,
I'm glad my post was okay for you. I worried afterwards that it was too probing. I think its a great idea to start calling your grandmother "grandmother". Most of this is about recognizing our authentic feelings.
I feel so sad that your real mother has died.
I just think its terrible that a child is kept from her mother because of this elusive "inability to cope". I strongly believe that in most cases, with the proper help, most mothers will cope better. But if they have people working against them, as I did with my MIL, then of course they're going to find coping difficult.
Also, her illness could easily have been related to her childhood. THis is controversial, but I believe this.
I just feel that it could so easily have been me IYSWIM. My mother used to tell people that I had "panick attacks" and wasn't stable. I didn't know what she was talking about as a child, but she was just making the whole thing up to make me look...mad (?) I do have anxiety issues now, brought on by my childhood. But I haven't had any of these so-called panick attacks since I cut her out of my life. Funny that, isn't it!
I think you hit the nail on the had about my MIL wanting to make out as though she's the better mother by undermining her DILs. The irony is her eldest son (who lives with her with his wife and kids because of cultural reasons) hates his mother and father. He gets home from work and goes straight upstairs, not speaking to anyone. I know this because MIL relayed this "gossip" to my husband, who then had to sympathise with her . The bloody idiot brought it on herself. MIL's daughter was divorced by her husband after 2 years on the grounds that she was too controlling and he couldn'T stand it anymore. MIL's family is in a mess. FIL had an affair last year and we're supposed to pretend it never happened. And YET, as you say, she wants to PROVE to me and everyone that she's the better mother towards DD, compared to me. Oh, I am so anxious about the birth. I'm more scared of her getting her claws in again than I am about the labour. I honestly think that if this time DH allows her to behave like that again, it will signal the end of our marriage

AN, I read recently in a Doctor SPock book (given by someone!) that research showed children feel more afraid of the parent who doesn't seem to show or express anger. Have you read "we need to talk about Kevin" ? The father in that was like this. He was acting a play, where everyone was nicey nice. My in-laws are like this. Well this should say everything: the Japanese repress all emotions. Expression of emotions is seen as a bad thing. There were 45,000 suicides in Japan last year. 45, 000! Lots of them were kids and teenagers. So I think that says it all! Don't feel guilty about getting angry at the kids, as long as you don't go too far, like my parents did, and start taking your own stresses and issues out on them.

sakura- I know exactly how you feel I had this same sense of panic toward my MIL after dd's birth. Actually before DDs birth. She was imposing herself on me to such an extent I felt stifled by her.
I think you will be fine- You are in a strong position now. You are a strong person... heaven knows you have moved mountains to be where you are now.
Remember how your dh chose to spend time with you over MIL recently?
I think you have to believe in your own power sakura. As a child you must have felt so powererless that feeling lingers with you now.
Also what roseability said;

'It is almost as if they want to prove they are better mothers by undermining their daughter/DILs relationship with their grandchildren. They cannot see the normal boundaries and joys of a grandparent/grandchild relationship. That they are not the mothers and that it is different.'

This is so true, and I am mindful of how much MIL made me feel exactly like this and it took 'almost' cutting her out completely for it to stop.

It seems she has not learnt from this experience and is up to her old tricks again. But I like you Sakura, am older and wiser and more prepared to speak up as and when these things arise.

The difficulty for me is I am so naive I feel like I am continually suckered in because of my desperate need to have a mother in my life. That and my exasperating lack of self confidence.

I also have trouble deciphering what 'is' and 'isnt' normal behaviour. I dont know what normal is supposed to look like. I have trouble honouring my 'own' feelings. If someone says something or does something that doesnt feel right, I assume I am wrong to feel that way and suppress my feelings. I also know I am prone to the black and white thinking.

The other day MIL undermined me in front of DH said she had known him far longer than me and so 'knew' him better . I was taken aback but I am glad in a way as it has reminded me to be on guard. Yet it feels so unfair I have to be on my guard around people I am supposed to be able to trust. AGAIN. MIL I feel wears a mask 95% of the time (smiling assasin!) so I am constantly in danger of being lulled into a sense of trust. When the mask slips..there it is...what she truly thinks about me. She would like I think perhaps to rub me out. Take my spot and be most important role in both Dc's and Dh's life.

I always feel secure about dd because she is fiercly attached to me, but ds and dh?
I feel just like you. Why cant I have someone, anyone in my life who just wants to help me out of kindness? Someone there for ME not manipulating me to meet their own needs.

roseability your story about your mum and your gran was very upsetting. It felt so sinister to me. Especially the move away and what you said about your aunt saying that your mother getting distressed.That bit really tore at me
I hope Im not being out of line here but it almost felt reading it as though your grandmother was trying to re-write history in someway with you as the replacement for the daughter she had lost, even though she was not lost physically. Like she wnated to rub your mother out and replace her with you. This may have been so she didnt have to face up to anything herself maybe.

What you said also about never being able to remember your grandmother hugging you or making you feel special and that she was '...emotionless.....However she could turn round and say the cruelest things, but would never apologise afterwards.'

This really resonated with me as this is how my mother was.
This has left me crippled emotionally in many respects because I feel I have such little self esteem. I dont know how to rebuild it. Its like trying to build when you have no foundations.

It hit me the other night when I was watching a programme about adoption. A single woman wanting to adopt was told that maybe she may not be able to because the social worker suspected she had low self esteem. She felt this would impact on the child beacuse she would need to have the confidence to deal with situations as they arise and advocate for the child.

I felt guilty then as I thought here I am trying to bring up two young children and I do have very low self esteem and that it is what stops me from doing a good job when I am constantly second guessing myself.

AN - Your post was very re-assuring. I read somewhere that if you do everything out of 'love and respect' for your children and I found that re-assuring too, because I like everyone else on this board am petrified I am going to mess my children up in some way.

My problem I think is as I said above my low self esteem and constantly second guessing myself because of it. I tjhink with children you have to be consistent and I dont think I am.
When I am around my 'old' family (although very rare these days) I feel like they look at me and think I am too weak and have too little boundaries. That my children are too oputspoken and free. I always come away feeling conflicted and that Im not doing a good job because Idont have the confidence to hold myself to a path and stick to it.
When I am around my DH's family it is the opposite I feel they think I am too strict. MIL's subtle undermining recently with DS has not helped my confidence of course.
I get frustrated because I feel like Im surrounded on both sides by people who think they know better and can do better than I can. THat makes me feel sad in turn because that is how I grew up.
I feel sad that the people around me 'still' try and use me to make themselves feel better and feel more important than me.
What you said about modelling behaviour hit a nerve because in terms of how I manage my own emotions especially around dh I am not being a good role model at the moment. Maybe if I admit that and face up to it that is a start.

With regard to not showing emotions I feel like my old family and dh's family are like two polar opposites.
My old family displayed a lot of explosive anger, a lot of jelousy sadness etc. It was guilt making to feel happy in our house at all and i think that has stuck with me.
My dh's family is the opposite it is all about suppressing negative feelings. My sil said something the other day which was very telling. She said everything is ok as a long as you pin a smile on your face.
I think my DH would love us to be like a family off some cheesy american show . But that's not reality and I feel like I can never reach his ideal of what family life should be.

Hello all, have not been able to log on for a while, busy as usual with DC's etc. Some very interesting posts recently.

AN, I agree with your post yesterday. I think my DH was brought up to feel he would not be loved if he was not perfect and he is a perfectionist to this day. He is proud of the fact that he is and he says it is because of his mother, but he has no idea about the deeper and more sinister reason he is as he is. I am sure he was brought up to feel his mother would only love him if he was totally obedient to her. Recently we have been having a lot of discussions about his mother and who she really is and how she has been treating me. It culminated in a phone call by DH to his mother in which he basically told her she had been bullying me (his words) and that her behaviour made him ashamed of her and that she had caused huge problems between him and me. I could tell he was terrified whilst he was saying all these things to her but he did it anyway. I know that he has NEVER dared to speak to his mother in that way until now, I am sure he has always been scared that if he did tell her a few brutal home truths, that she would stop loving him, just as he must have felt that as a child, if he was disobedient and went against his mother's wishes, she would not love him.

I am so proud of him and I feel it is a real turning point in our relationship. I told him that his defence of his mother all these years and his refusal to stand up to her properly til now (although his refusal was actually based on fear i now realise) had damaged my trust in him that he would look after me and protect me from harm and also damaged my respect for him. I told him that my love for him was conditional and that in future he needed to show respect for me and my feelings and needs if he was not to damage and destroy our marriage. I feel he has also bullied me in a way, he has sometimes been quite threatening in order to get what he wants and is prone to sulks and passive aggressive behaviour if he didn't get his own way. I am sure he knows now that any of that sort of behaviour will not be tolerated by me any longer.

My counsellor said he was only able to stand up and not feel afraid of speaking frankly to his mother because of the strength I had given him. Because i had the courage of my convictions and I was adamant that his mother needed to be given some definate boundaries. Even though throughout most of our marriage he has always defended his mother and refused to validate any of the negative things I was saying about her, in the last few days he has, bit by bit, admitted that I have been right all along in my judgement of her and that in fact she had also said some quite nasty and tactless things to him which he had always kept quiet about, but he had now managed to find the courage to tell her about.

He also said that he thought his mother was a narcissist! I was amazed to hear him say that about her and was pleased that he wasn't totally blind to her as i had feared. He had defended her out of a sense of loyalty and obligation because she had done a lot for him as a mother over the years.

Anyway, I think DH and I now need to allow some time for the dust to settle, but I feel so much more optimistic about the future of our marriage than I ever have before.

Thank you Rose and Sakura. Sakura I feel so sorry for Japanese children reading what you wrote. Also, about not taking your anger too far, I'm thinking that when anger is really repressed, it builds up and intensifies, so then if you finally 'crack' the anger is likely to go too far! I can see this fairly clearly with my brother's situation, where he never dealt with all his anger from childhood and ended up 'cracking' and attacking women. It seems like showing little bits of anger, as they happen, getting it out and then forgetting it, is much more healthy and has less impact on the one you are angry with.

I just thought of another situation which illustrates this point. When I first started my last job, the boy/man who had the task of training me up was a bit of a bully. He liked to make me feel stupid, make me look stupid in front of other people, scare me by driving dangerously when I was in his car going to and from jobs, embarrass me by emailing me photographs of terrible things, sick things or sexually explicit things. I didn't show any reaction. Sometimes he was very nice and taught me the job well. I had some good times with him as well as bad. I suppose I felt dependent on him after talking my way into a job I had no idea how to do. He thought we were close friends. I took all the bits I didn't like day after day and didnt react. He kind of reminded me of my brother and triggered me a bit, well probably a lot. Then one day there was an incident in front of everyone in the office and I snapped. I shouted at him in a nasty and rejecting way, in front of everyone. He was very upset. He felt my reaction was an overreaction to that incident but the truth is it was a reaction to every incident previously that had built up.

After that I completely rejected him and perhaps I wouldn't have if I had showed my anger every time, but less intensely. I had learnt the job by then and made friends with other people there (I suppose I used him then dumped him). I still feel guilty now because he was a vulnerable man/boy. He didn't look vulnerable, he is big and hairy and scary looking and most people don't seem to like him, but he is vulnerable. He didn't even want to walk down the corridor to get a coffee without me with him. He didn't want to go on jobs without me. He felt abandoned and he has a history of abandonement having been adopted like me. He was off work for a few days and told me he had thrown himself down the stairs because someone had upset him so much (staring at me intently while saying it to give the impression he meant me). He used to stand and stare at me accross the office with an expression on his face like he had been deeply betrayed and hurt by me. I hate it that I hurt him. After a while I started talking to him again but never felt he had forgiven me.

I did wrong by him by not showing my anger and showing how I would and would not be treated. I probably would have forgiven him a few incidents because I felt sorry for him and how his family situation seemed to have affected him. I could have expressed my anger then forgot it and carried on and he might have stopped doing horrible things because I would have made it clear I wouldn't tolerate it and we could have stayed friends and it would have helped him.

I forgive myself though mostly because I had my own problems which meant I couldn't express myself properly and my self esteem issues and low confidence etc probably made him want to 'target' me anyway because he felt the need to bully someone. I don't see the things he did as being terrible, but they did trigger feelings about my brother so it felt quite bad at the time.

OnePlusOne, what your DH has done is MEGA! I feel quite 'blown away'. Reading your post brought tears to my eyes (I never really actually cry properly) and I felt a sense of gratefulness that he has done that for you, I am so happy that he has done that for you!

You know how hard that was for him and he has done that for you because you deserve it and he loves you enough. I get the impression that he had to carry on saying his mother's behaviour was ok before so that he could believe this himself and not feel upset by her behaving/having behaved in the past, similarly towards him. This reminds me of something Alice Miller would say! Is she right that some parents behave similarly to their own parents as a way of trying to prove to themselves that they think the behaviour was ok to protect themselves from feeling upset by it? Was your DH treating you in ways his mother treated him in this sort of way to prove to himself that he thinks her behaviour towards him was ok?